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Dr. Vasavi: Yeah, yeah.

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So I'm basically a social anthropologist.

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My interests are in social theory and
in anthropology, sociology of India,

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and with a strong focus on agrarian
studies and educational studies.

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I did my Master's, M.Phil from the
Department of Sociology Delhi School of

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Economics, and then left for the US to
do my PhD at Michigan State University.

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And after that I taught for a
year at Tufts at Medford, and

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then returned to India and I've
worked for about 14 to 15 years.

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Most of the time was at
the National Institute for

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Advanced Studies in Bangalore.

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Apart from that actual working
experience, I've sort of been engaged

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with various projects on the ground
level, which is from where we sort

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of took off the Punarchith collective
started in 2011, started with a number

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of friends, a small group actually,
trying to bridge what I thought was...

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I was engaged in research and studies on
agrarian issues along with the educational

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issues, focusing on the youth, who we
felt really were both understudied and

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underrepresented in both these context
of what was happening in agriculture in

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India, about the agrarian distress that
I had written about, but also looking at

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the problems of poor quality education,
especially as India was expanding it’s

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secondary education system, and the
university systems were expanding.

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So trying to bridge these two by
looking at youth as actors, but also

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looking at the agency of youth in
these contexts, and what would an

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alternative learning program be, in
contrast to mainstream formal education?

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That's what the collective tries to do.

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Gayithri: Really nice.

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So I'll just briefly introduce myself.

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I'm Gayithri Jayathirtha, I'm a doctoral
student at the University of Pennsylvania

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currently, and my primary research area
has been computing education, to have

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a focus, to have a disciplinary home.

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But before this I was a math teacher,
mathematics teacher back in India,

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where I was running an afterschool
program, for-profit afterschool program.

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But I was also partnering with a few
nonprofit institutions to support

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the broader mathematics teachers in
a couple of districts in Karnataka.

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I was actually partnering with Prajayatna.

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I'm not sure if you have heard of them.

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Dr. Vasavi: Yeah, I've heard of.

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Gayithri: Yeah.

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So I did some work with them for a
few years before I moved here for

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my Master's and then my PhD program.

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So that has been my training,
but I'm also retraining, trying

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to complicate what I understand,
and how I understand the world.

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And from the time we've been here,
I have had my own struggles with my

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identity, for what it means to be doing
this work here, and why am I even doing

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this, and what at least is not being
sufficiently studied, and what doesn't

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connect with my own life experiences?

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And that is why this whole collective
started off, like the south Asian Learning

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Sciences Research Collective, we call
it, but it was predominantly a bunch of

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us Indian students coming together and
really trying to understand what about our

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own lives are we actually parking outside
our classrooms to learn whatever is

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being taught here, to learn the theories
that we learn or study or read here.

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And that is why we started
recognizing some patterns, some of

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the patterns in our own conversations.

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We have been engaging for over
a year or two now, more than

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a couple of years actually.

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And then we got this little grant to
do this work where we were like, "Okay,

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let us talk to folks and find out and
capture those contextual factors for what

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it means to work in the subcontinent.

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What emerges, and how
is work even done there?

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Is it qualitatively
different, in what ways?

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What are some of the
concerns that are coming up?

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So we just wanted to capture that and we
wanted to talk to people who are working

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there, people who have studied there,
people who may be doing both, just you do.

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So thank you so much for joining us today.

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So we will have two parts
for this conversation.

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One would be more focused on your
work, mostly Punarchith, and we will

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get to more of that and what you're
doing there, how is it oriented towards

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the goals that you're planning for?

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And another would be more of your personal
journey, your personal story for where

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did you start and how did you navigate,
and how did you get to where you are now?

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And what in the process would you want to
share with people who would want to or who

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aspire to be in your position, who aspire
to do the kind of work of that you do?

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And who may be in position similar
to where you are, like where you

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were before as a PhD student,
thinking about the theories.

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So let's get started by talking about
your ongoing work with the rural youth.

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For the sake of listeners, of course we
will be tagging in some of the writings

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that you already have ,the webpage of the
organization so that people get a sense

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of what is happening, but if you were
to briefly tell them, what would be the

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overview of your work, for the listeners?

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What exactly is Punarchith,
what do you do there?

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Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

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So Punarchith means re-think.

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Basically, for us, it was a way to
rethink our own privileges, the kind

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of privileged backgrounds we came
from and the privileges we've had,

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but also to rethink a whole range
of knowledge systems which we have

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just received, either in our formal
education systems or the kind of formal

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information and kind of understandings
we get from the larger society.

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It was to reposition ourselves in a very
complex world in which there was so much

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turbulence, in which we were witness to
but we were also participants in that

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kind of turbulence that had been happening
in India in the past three decades.

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So, it was to rethink all this, along
with a new kind of learning practices,

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and deliberately we didn't want to call
it education, making learning, especially

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for the rural youths, as an endeavor,
an experience that draws from their own

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lives, from their own life worlds, but
enables them to engage with both everyday

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lives and the larger system in a proactive
way through, by first, by making them

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as endowed and capable individuals,
so our kind of byline was individual

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growth, but collective responsibility.

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So basically when we started
in 2011, we took a whole year.

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Much of it was sort of
organically evolved.

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We deliberately did not take a blueprint
approach, although we had some ideas

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as to what would be the modules and who
would be the participants, et cetera.

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So this was a course called the
Integrated Learning Program.

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It was meant for youth from 18 to 27,
28, both girls and boys, and it would

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be a course in which they would not...

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Because we still don't have the
infrastructure to house them for

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long periods of time but they would
come in the morning and go back.

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It was for all the villages that were
around us in the village we stayed in.

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So that was really the flagship,
and has been our flagship program.

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We have not done it since
2019, we've not conducted it.

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Mostly 2019, we did not have funds.

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2020 we got the funds, but-

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Gayithri: COVID happened.

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Dr. Vasavi: The pandemic restrictions
prevented us, and this year we are hoping

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to really make up for the two lost years.

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But we continued to engage with
the alumni, which really has now

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become a part of really the learning
experience, it’s telling us, which I

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will later elaborate on, which is a
big learning for us, but, of course,

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by in itself it's inadequate here.

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They need so much more handholding
over the years because the situations

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are so difficult, and their own
precarity in their homes, in the

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households, in the society, means that
much more scaffolding is required.

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So that continues to be part of our
work, where we have alumni network

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and we have groups, production groups,
civic citizenship action groups,

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et cetera, all from the alumni.

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So that's the big part of the work.

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The other supplementary, in some ways
complimenting this work, is we purchased

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seven acres of very dry loose land, dry
in the sense it does not have water.

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The water that we have is harvested
from the rain, and land that had been

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abused over several years and abandoned.

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Of course,somebody sold it to us,
so a restoration of land, land

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restoration program, restoring
the soils, the biodiversity, the

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crops, the trees, everything.

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So that has really been
very time consuming.

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A big, big learning experience for
all of us, but getting really into

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the nitty gritty of agriculture, much
more than we had anticipated and much

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more than the kind of skills we had
or the knowledge we had as a team.

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Along with this, as we've
evolved over the past nine years.

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As I said, we've tried to grow
organically by responding to the

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demands of the field, responding
to what we think needs to be done.

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For example, when we saw the youth and
they own such small parcels of land,

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agriculture does not give them adequate
income, we started a small production

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unit, but it also fed into our whole
questioning the mainstream economy,

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the capitalistic economy and a way to
get this economy a profit making unit.

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People who have to profit
versus workers, that the youth

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themselves formed collectives.

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So right now, what is grown
locally is also a value-added

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process and is sold by them.

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So a very small collective,
and it's a subgroup.

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They run the show themselves.

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So that's a production
unit which we also started.

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Other than that we have a
lot of small, small programs.

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A home gardening program, in which
we emphasize ideas of nutrition and

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also autonomy, especially for women in
the context of a lot of malnutrition

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in the area, but also enhancing this
whole idea of food sovereignty, which

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is a huge issue in the rural areas
and agriculture's changing very fast.

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So these are some of the smaller programs.

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We've recently started one, an
outreach program, on understanding

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climate emergency, because
climate change is so, so evident.

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But yet action, either from the
government or from the societal level,

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to address extant resource degradation
isn’t there, so we've been trying to

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work on that for the whole district.

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We've done a lot of data
collection and analysis.

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Right now we are doing small
infographics, which we are kind

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of disseminating to people.

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[inaudible]

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.
 And of course the COVID is a time which
has forced us to situate that within

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the larger climate emergency context.

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And to say that unless we really take care
of our ecology, our ecological systems,

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you cannot have [inaudible] livelyhoods.

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These two are very, very integrated.

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So these are, I think, very
major challenges for us.

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I think we stepped in with ideas of
an alternative learning program, not

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classroom-based but different, but what
has emerged are these different programs.

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Gayithri: Very interesting.

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I would love to see what that expansion
meant and how that actually happened.

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But before we move on, you said
that you started this in 2011,

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and you have had cohorts of youth
participating in your program.

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Just to get a sense, again for
our listeners, what is a cohort

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size, and so far how many have...

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You recently reached out to the
alumni, so what has been a sense

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of size, if you were to give?

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Dr. Vasavi: Yeah, we started the...

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We've had batches of
only 24, that's what...

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It fits our budget, but also fits the
classroom, the kind of space we have.

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12 girls, 12 boys, that's what
we would recruit for each batch.

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We've had some dropouts, mostly when
girls get married, they've withdrawn.

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That's been a huge challenge for us,
where, the kind of, extent to which

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we've lost girls, although we've
taken a lot of trouble to retain them.

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But every batch, the most
outstanding performers are

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girls, although it's agriculture.

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So we've been happy by that, and
we continue to focus on that.

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Some, of course...

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We have a rule where if they
don't have attendance...

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Attendance falls more than… their
absenteeism is high, is higher

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than 30%, we ask them to leave.

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Mostly because no session can be
understood unless you have attended

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previous sessions, so because of that.

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So altogether right now, from
six batches we have only about a

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hundred and odd students, of which
about 60 odd are quite active, in

00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:53.860
the sense, quite engaged with us.

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We have about 18 people who have
formed the core of the production unit.

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They run the whole production unit,
right from producing the stuff, to

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sending it, to looking at the monetary
levels, the banking, everything.

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We have another 12 people who are...

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It's called Grama Sethu, the village
bridge, in which they actually work

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with their local communities in their
hamlets, bridging or catering to their

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civic needs, of the citizenship needs.

00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:29.192
Getting your identity card made,
your water card made, mobilizing

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their [inaudible] . Like new COVID…
disseminating information on medical

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support, things like that, for which
they get a small honorarium from us.

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It's very part-time work, all mobilizing
people for nutritious food, or any

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of those activities what they do.

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So this is what some of them have
been engaged in, and which we continue

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to have this sort of engagement, and
mentoring and handholding continues.

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Gayithri: Got it, got it.

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And because you were talking about how
you make your cohort of 24 try to balance

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at gender level, is there anything else
that you look for or is there anything

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that you consciously try to accommodate,
in terms of other demographic differences

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that maybe there among the youth, or do
you just welcome anybody who's interested?

00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:25.680
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

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By default, most of the students are from
the scheduled caste, and a few from the..

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it is a tribal area, so
we tribal students also.

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There are very few what are
called “general category”

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people in this district.

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This does have the highest
proportion of scheduled caste,

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scheduled tribe, so we have that.

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Mostly because we wanted to have an
integrated classroom, we did open

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up to the so-called dominant caste
thing, but very, very few people come.

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They sense that this is not their
cup of tea, and overall there is

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resistance to a course like this.

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It hasn't been easy, it's not
attractive for them, even though

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we've paid stipends for that reason.

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As many have said, "To study
means to go to the city, why would

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we want to study in a village?

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Why would we want to study agriculture?

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Agriculture's something
everybody wants to abandon."

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Their parents are telling
them to abandon it.

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So altogether this has not been
attractive, very, very few people

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really come out of interest.

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Of the ones who have come, we
would say less than 25% have come

00:17:28.856 --> 00:17:31.150
with interest in agriculture.

00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:33.890
So these have been our challenges.

00:17:33.890 --> 00:17:37.595
The other issue has also been class,
which we have not looked at very...

00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.679
I mean too much, because as I said,
anyone who can afford it, they

00:17:41.679 --> 00:17:42.952
don't even study in the district.

00:17:43.080 --> 00:17:45.580
They study in Mysore or in
the city, where they would

00:17:45.580 --> 00:17:45.632
definitely not not want to come.

00:17:45.632 --> 00:17:45.641
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:17:45.641 --> 00:17:48.632
Dr. Vasavi: For example, the average
holding size is only 1.2 acres.

00:17:48.632 --> 00:17:57.600
Nobody has more than even two acres,
in the whole family household,

00:17:58.010 --> 00:17:59.700
land holding size is so little.

00:18:01.420 --> 00:18:10.575
Girls, what we have found is, they've
come from mostly the Scheduled Caste.

00:18:10.575 --> 00:18:19.629
We've had to really, really pick and
entice some of the Scheduled Tribe girls.

00:18:19.820 --> 00:18:22.039
One, they live in very remote hamlets and
parents are very reluctant to send them.

00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:24.210
They always have to be escorted and
they will have to come in groups, like

00:18:24.210 --> 00:18:27.840
more than two girls or three girls,
in which we've also facilitated that.

00:18:28.360 --> 00:18:32.600
But if one girl there drops out, for
example we had this case of a girl getting

00:18:32.600 --> 00:18:34.780
married, all the others also drop out.

00:18:35.090 --> 00:18:36.940
It's like a cluster behavior.

00:18:38.090 --> 00:18:40.800
So these are some of the
challenges we've had.

00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:46.836
But overall I would say really,
both in terms of caste and class

00:18:46.836 --> 00:18:50.280
and the household situation,
very, very disadvantaged students.

00:18:50.280 --> 00:18:51.860
Gayithri: Got it.

00:18:52.650 --> 00:18:55.820
I just wanted it to be more
explicit in our conversation.

00:18:58.750 --> 00:19:02.790
I think we are at a perfect point
to talk a little about the social,

00:19:03.010 --> 00:19:06.639
political, and economic context
in which this work is happening.

00:19:06.910 --> 00:19:09.340
I know you briefly mentioned
that you are near Mysore.

00:19:10.650 --> 00:19:15.000
Mysore, being like a pretty
big city of Karnataka.

00:19:15.370 --> 00:19:18.110
So would you want to tell us a
little more about the context

00:19:18.110 --> 00:19:19.890
in which this work is happening?

00:19:21.280 --> 00:19:25.790
Geographic location and a little more
about the social, political and economic?

00:19:25.990 --> 00:19:30.806
Dr. Vasavi: I just want to say, in the
larger context, understanding the larger

00:19:30.806 --> 00:19:35.050
context of India that you mentioned,
along with the ecological context, the

00:19:35.050 --> 00:19:36.266
environmental context would be very...

00:19:36.540 --> 00:19:41.310
So we are based in the district
of Mysore, which is a Taluka.

00:19:41.310 --> 00:19:43.230
It became a new district in '97.

00:19:43.230 --> 00:19:48.440
It's considered, it's in the leeward
side of the Nilgiris, so it's kind

00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.660
of a drought prone area because
it doesn't get sufficient rainfall

00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:00.060
over the years and has large numbers
of very disadvantaged castes.

00:20:01.389 --> 00:20:03.790
Very little industrialization
has taken place.

00:20:03.790 --> 00:20:09.780
It does have a largish forest belt, where
the indigenous people, the Soligas live.

00:20:09.860 --> 00:20:16.470
It has large national parks which are
cordoned off, where the indigenous Soligas

00:20:16.470 --> 00:20:18.740
have been dumped outside in colonies.

00:20:19.570 --> 00:20:22.596
This is all cordoned off for tourist
purposes, where there are elephants

00:20:22.596 --> 00:20:24.536
and tiger, leopards, et cetera.

00:20:24.536 --> 00:20:30.460
So very big tourist sites, which are
really not accessible to the local people.

00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:37.619
Much of it, the planes are very dry,
rain dependent, has what I've been

00:20:37.679 --> 00:20:41.590
calling as dry grain production, but
very low production of local grains.

00:20:42.610 --> 00:20:47.860
It also has some kind of, a little
bit of granite stone mining.

00:20:48.430 --> 00:20:51.130
This is the only other
industry available in the area.

00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.376
So the larger political economy is
not only of complexity, but also

00:20:56.376 --> 00:21:03.270
full of contradictions, and this is
something that has me agitated all

00:21:04.310 --> 00:21:07.300
the time because most people don't
recognize that the extent to which these

00:21:07.350 --> 00:21:11.889
contradictions in our structural situation
are really the challenges we face.

00:21:12.620 --> 00:21:17.420
The contradictions are that since, say
the mid-nineties, when the so-called

00:21:17.560 --> 00:21:23.156
global economy took off, you've had of
course the rise of a middle class, what

00:21:23.210 --> 00:21:25.360
is called the new Indian middle class.

00:21:25.360 --> 00:21:29.899
People who profited from the rise of the
IT, other industries, growth of the urban

00:21:29.899 --> 00:21:32.250
areas, et cetera.And you've had the rise
of global, very visible, transnational

00:21:32.250 --> 00:21:40.930
millionaires and elite who are
commuting between countries, et cetera.

00:21:41.470 --> 00:21:47.230
And you've had an increase in real
wages in which, you know, the little

00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:49.470
boats have also been pushed up.

00:21:50.210 --> 00:21:56.280
But within that, within what is visible
infrastructure improvement and visible

00:21:56.860 --> 00:22:01.669
improvement and housing, access to
education, et cetera, are the more

00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:03.589
invisible disadvantages people have.

00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:12.700
Where access to clean water, to natural
resources, all of these have actually

00:22:12.770 --> 00:22:18.840
occurred in the context of the natural
resource base taking a hit because the

00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:23.740
economies have been so extractive across
the country and we see it in our district.

00:22:26.020 --> 00:22:30.600
Lakes and forests drying up, agriculture
becoming extractive, et cetera.

00:22:31.190 --> 00:22:36.100
And politically many know that the
globalization of the economy has

00:22:36.100 --> 00:22:39.800
meant, not only opening of the media,
but the promotion of the consumer

00:22:39.800 --> 00:22:44.020
culture, which is very significant for
the kind of aspirations youth have.

00:22:44.620 --> 00:22:51.049
But along with this, what you have
is the extent to which there is a

00:22:51.049 --> 00:22:54.350
welfare government mentality that
has spread, where the government

00:22:54.350 --> 00:22:55.600
is providing some of these.

00:22:56.080 --> 00:23:00.260
For example, the increase in the food
distribution systems, et cetera, which

00:23:00.300 --> 00:23:05.099
I think is really, balancing of the
economics of neglect with the politics

00:23:05.099 --> 00:23:08.960
of rescue, appeasement basically,
always done at election times.

00:23:09.530 --> 00:23:14.840
But also more significantly has been the
erosion of democracy because… the kind of

00:23:14.840 --> 00:23:20.239
political system that has come [inaudible]
and spread of Hindutva, not only as

00:23:20.719 --> 00:23:27.880
sociocultural level, but as a political
force, which has been significant.

00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:33.325
So along with the sociopolitical
and economic structures, we've

00:23:33.490 --> 00:23:39.510
had, as I mentioned, are the really
much more ecological devastation.

00:23:39.550 --> 00:23:44.049
Not only climate change, but
the extant degradation of

00:23:45.389 --> 00:23:52.933
landscapes that is taking place.

00:23:52.933 --> 00:23:53.600
And, visibly, there is an improvement.

00:23:53.860 --> 00:23:59.760
As I mentioned earlier there may be more
proper houses, the huts may have gone, and

00:23:59.779 --> 00:24:01.760
then now these concrete houses have come.

00:24:01.760 --> 00:24:06.170
There's more television, more people
have bikes, mobiles everywhere, but

00:24:07.150 --> 00:24:11.270
the quality of life, for example, if
you look at what people are eating,

00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:16.969
the shrinking of the food basket,
the increasing malnutrition, poorer

00:24:18.090 --> 00:24:20.114
nutritional levels of people, et cetera.

00:24:20.114 --> 00:24:23.245
I think those are the contradictions,
which we need to catch.

00:24:23.550 --> 00:24:29.240
And this is the context
in which we are working.

00:24:29.570 --> 00:24:33.650
Gayithri: And what got you to thinking
about this alternative, like learning

00:24:33.650 --> 00:24:43.510
for rural youth, how did you arrive at,
oh, this is what we need to be doing, to

00:24:43.510 --> 00:24:45.980
actually work with this contradiction?

00:24:46.639 --> 00:24:55.950
And what approaches actually
have you drawn to work with this

00:24:56.080 --> 00:24:59.562
alternative program for rural youth?

00:24:59.562 --> 00:25:07.557
Dr. Vasavi: So as I said we didn't have
a blueprint, we tried to evolve it.

00:25:07.557 --> 00:25:13.170
Of course, when we started, there were
three four approaches, which having

00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:16.210
read or interacted with people, we
thought this would be appropriate.

00:25:16.210 --> 00:25:18.100
The first was we thought it
would be what I called a social

00:25:18.100 --> 00:25:19.949
transformational approach.

00:25:20.419 --> 00:25:29.089
It would not, because of critiques of
what the mainstream education system

00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:33.919
was, it was primarily reproducing the
privileges of being already the dominant

00:25:33.919 --> 00:25:38.509
castes and the classes, but very, very
disjunctive to the disadvantaged who

00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:43.410
could not fit into the mainstream system
because of the poor quality of education.

00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:48.010
So social transformation in the sense of
enabling learners to situate themselves

00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:53.160
within their societies, to engage with
it proactively, to become aware of those

00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:57.409
structures of disadvantage that were
keeping them down, to find their voice, to

00:25:57.410 --> 00:26:02.850
find the agency, to take sort of charge of
their own life, to have their own scripts,

00:26:03.009 --> 00:26:04.359
which they could direct the lives with.

00:26:04.730 --> 00:26:07.379
So this was what we thought
the course should be.

00:26:08.330 --> 00:26:11.740
Because of that, we gave them, we
continue to give a lot of importance

00:26:12.140 --> 00:26:14.340
to theater, to performing arts.

00:26:14.340 --> 00:26:19.342
For example, they're so shy and
inhibited when they come, to

00:26:19.342 --> 00:26:21.400
develop their confidence, their
own sense of self worth, et cetera.

00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:23.899
So that was one issue.

00:26:23.909 --> 00:26:26.660
The other was place based education.

00:26:27.110 --> 00:26:31.180
Because mainstream education system,
the texts are full of things elsewhere.

00:26:31.590 --> 00:26:32.340
It's not there.

00:26:32.590 --> 00:26:33.510
It's not about them.

00:26:34.100 --> 00:26:38.859
For example, many don't even know why is
it that they don't get regular rainfall?

00:26:38.979 --> 00:26:40.789
What does it mean to
be in the rain shadow?

00:26:44.350 --> 00:26:45.546
Why is our agriculture
system this particular type?

00:26:45.546 --> 00:26:47.280
Why is it that our food is
this type, not something else?

00:26:49.260 --> 00:26:56.120
So understanding your own immediate
worlds, in relationship to the larger

00:26:56.120 --> 00:26:57.509
world, that was something that we placed.

00:26:57.679 --> 00:27:01.200
So understanding, for example,
why is that lake dried up?

00:27:02.120 --> 00:27:05.159
Why that local hospital does not function?

00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:06.865
Why are our rituals, annual
village festivals, why have they

00:27:06.865 --> 00:27:06.989
become so grand over the years?

00:27:07.010 --> 00:27:07.909
Why are marriages so different?

00:27:07.909 --> 00:27:21.870
For example, to see how people are
mimicking the tele serials, why

00:27:22.120 --> 00:27:24.169
are our women dressing differently?

00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:27.970
From everyday things, to
wishes, so very reflexive.

00:27:30.420 --> 00:27:34.260
So understanding the place
itself as a text, rather than

00:27:34.260 --> 00:27:35.880
a textbook, place as a text.

00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:39.610
For example, they do walks and
map things and then identify

00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:41.050
those things that they must study.

00:27:42.410 --> 00:27:48.499
The third thing we are trying to do is,
where general skills, we know English

00:27:48.509 --> 00:27:56.190
or computers and accounts, these are
given to see those has skills and

00:27:56.190 --> 00:28:01.020
capabilities for their everyday lives,
for wherever they function, as very

00:28:01.040 --> 00:28:02.889
necessary, but also enabling them.

00:28:03.620 --> 00:28:05.930
So it doesn't mean just because you're
going to be in agriculture, you should

00:28:05.930 --> 00:28:09.193
not know English or you need not know
how to use a computer, et cetera.

00:28:09.193 --> 00:28:14.640
So those, some kinds of
universal skills are also given.

00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:20.010
Finally we try to, in the modules
we have, because it's not discipline

00:28:20.340 --> 00:28:22.337
based, we try to be interdisciplinary.

00:28:22.337 --> 00:28:26.250
For example, when we do a lot of
sessions on social issues, whether

00:28:26.250 --> 00:28:32.870
it's gender and caste and religion,
also, we try to integrate all kinds of

00:28:32.870 --> 00:28:34.810
perspective, may not be just sociological.

00:28:34.810 --> 00:28:37.989
For example, we might look at the
politics of caste, not only caste

00:28:38.320 --> 00:28:41.449
system as a system of hierarchy,
but the economics of castes.

00:28:42.230 --> 00:28:47.050
Or if they're doing agriculture, when
you map a village, why is it only some

00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:50.549
people own large amounts of land and
large numbers don't have any land?

00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:53.939
How do you understand
the economy of a village?

00:28:54.170 --> 00:28:55.760
Why is it that traders only come?

00:28:56.179 --> 00:28:59.840
So it could be very, very
interdisciplinary and making

00:28:59.860 --> 00:29:01.819
those into linkages constantly.

00:29:02.490 --> 00:29:10.460
So these have been our approach
and what we found was something

00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:13.581
that we needed to do, which we
started, right from beginning.

00:29:13.581 --> 00:29:16.579
We had told them no exams,
there's no fail, no pass.

00:29:17.049 --> 00:29:19.790
And people were very confused,
especially those who had come up in

00:29:19.800 --> 00:29:24.319
college level because the training
system is so honed into that.

00:29:24.789 --> 00:29:28.850
And then we showed how, okay, if you have
a paper, they do either at home or they do

00:29:28.850 --> 00:29:35.810
it there with us, it's correction analysis
and you correct, whatever mistakes

00:29:35.810 --> 00:29:37.860
you've made, errors, you correct that.

00:29:37.860 --> 00:29:38.510
And you relearn.

00:29:39.170 --> 00:29:39.950
So relearning, also as part of learning.

00:29:43.260 --> 00:29:46.140
They are not marked.

00:29:46.210 --> 00:29:47.030
Nobody is a failure.

00:29:47.679 --> 00:29:49.005
That was very, very important.

00:29:49.250 --> 00:29:51.780
Because we found large numbers
have dropped out from the system

00:29:52.230 --> 00:29:56.550
and they've been marked as
failures, as failed, already.

00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:02.129
So that is what the emotional
scaffolding helps that overcome.

00:30:03.389 --> 00:30:04.212
So these were the interlinked ways,
some kind of pedagogies also that

00:30:04.212 --> 00:30:04.670
have been used in the learning.

00:30:10.679 --> 00:30:12.149
Gayithri: Yeah, that's perfect.

00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:16.880
And I just took a couple of points
like notes, when you were mentioning

00:30:16.910 --> 00:30:20.880
a few, I think, like something
that can be worthy of elaboration.

00:30:21.430 --> 00:30:26.320
One is you were commenting on how
the Indian education system is.

00:30:26.650 --> 00:30:32.646
Of course, it's not a surprise that
it is reproducing, like some of the

00:30:32.646 --> 00:30:36.990
patterns, some of the dominant patterns
and facilitating or helping only like

00:30:37.030 --> 00:30:39.310
the dominant groups and not everybody.

00:30:40.260 --> 00:30:41.600
Do you want to comment?

00:30:41.870 --> 00:30:46.350
Of course, this is something that has
been discussed in the broader context

00:30:46.350 --> 00:30:50.469
of educational research, but do you
want to tell specifically what this

00:30:50.469 --> 00:30:52.600
has meant for the Indian context?

00:30:52.760 --> 00:30:59.520
What does it mean to reproduce
status quo or the privilege or

00:31:00.360 --> 00:31:02.980
not serving the underprivileged?

00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:05.340
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

00:31:05.360 --> 00:31:09.330
So I think that's been the biggest
failure of the Indian education system

00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:14.803
that instead of education being a leveler
or equality of opportunity, because

00:31:14.803 --> 00:31:19.850
of the highly differentiated systems
that we have, which I wanted to come

00:31:19.890 --> 00:31:21.700
later, when we're looking at concept.

00:31:21.950 --> 00:31:22.190
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:30.020
Dr. Vasavi: It enables the ones who
are already advantaged to become even

00:31:30.460 --> 00:31:34.020
more advantaged and the disadvantaged
to be even more disadvantaged.

00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:37.596
And that's what Bourdieu has also
reinforced in his study of France, of how

00:31:37.596 --> 00:31:37.941
a hierarchical education system works.

00:31:37.941 --> 00:31:48.320
But what we see here is because the
system is so punitive to the disadvantaged

00:31:48.320 --> 00:31:53.870
that it leaves you not only with the
disadvantage you have from your family

00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:58.239
background, your class background, but
having failed in the system, which is

00:31:58.639 --> 00:32:01.970
primarily not, if you've not passed
or you've not got a job, which is the

00:32:01.970 --> 00:32:09.340
biggest goal of education, you become
a double failure, the large masses.

00:32:09.340 --> 00:32:13.520
So it is poor quality mass
education that marks people, the

00:32:13.530 --> 00:32:14.529
youth especially, in these ways.

00:32:16.059 --> 00:32:19.641
Are scarring them for lives, which
really accounts for the large proportion

00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:22.270
of suicides we have now, among youth.

00:32:23.180 --> 00:32:27.910
So the kinds of anti-social activities,
their frustration, which accounts

00:32:28.030 --> 00:32:34.589
for them to join groups that are
violent and hostile to other groups.

00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.540
A complete lack of understanding
of the disadvantage, which

00:32:39.670 --> 00:32:40.959
a larger system is creating.

00:32:41.750 --> 00:32:47.895
So I think this really is the biggest
failure of the Indian education system.

00:32:48.830 --> 00:32:53.270
Gayithri: And you were also mentioning,
even in your narrative, it was

00:32:53.300 --> 00:32:59.019
kind of clear that you started
off with this vision to support

00:32:59.369 --> 00:33:01.560
youth with an educational program.

00:33:02.040 --> 00:33:06.660
But then in your story, you started
talking more about agriculture,

00:33:06.970 --> 00:33:08.789
like what are people eating?

00:33:09.719 --> 00:33:15.129
Do you want to tell a little about that
movement from thinking about it as like

00:33:15.210 --> 00:33:21.560
a couple of modules, and one program,
to now, we are going to talk about what

00:33:21.590 --> 00:33:23.420
you're growing and what you're eating?

00:33:24.850 --> 00:33:26.560
What was that movement like?

00:33:26.560 --> 00:33:31.250
What was that journey like
to move from this focus to...

00:33:33.750 --> 00:33:37.200
Dr. Vasavi: I think I wasn't clear in the
sense when we said it's an alternative

00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:44.270
learning program, it wasn't just
learning all these other kinds of...

00:33:44.270 --> 00:33:47.210
Agriculture and ecology, were the key
sites, key skills that they would get,

00:33:47.210 --> 00:33:50.976
which is sustainable agriculture now
because right now what's practiced

00:33:50.976 --> 00:33:56.470
in much of the belt, or across India
is chemical agriculture, which is

00:33:56.470 --> 00:33:59.258
the green revolution agriculture.

00:33:59.258 --> 00:34:05.120
So we were kind of looking at sustainable
agriculture, linked very strongly to

00:34:05.540 --> 00:34:09.860
looking at ecological issues, but that
would just be a format, as assigned

00:34:09.910 --> 00:34:17.909
kind of a takeoff site, for other
kinds of issues to be brought in.

00:34:17.909 --> 00:34:24.829
So it was not something that
we were not prepared for.

00:34:24.829 --> 00:34:27.460
It was just that the elaborate; in fact,
for example, when we do sessions on food,

00:34:28.179 --> 00:34:34.050
the boys take over; for example, when
we look at gender issues, it's the boys

00:34:34.050 --> 00:34:39.860
who have to do the cutting, chopping,
and cooking and serving, et cetera.

00:34:39.889 --> 00:34:46.180
So as I say, it's interdisciplinary, but
these agriculture, food, but also sense

00:34:46.180 --> 00:34:49.859
of belonging, responsibilities, these are
all interlinked right from the beginning.

00:34:50.350 --> 00:34:55.260
How we did it, how much we stressed
on it, why we had to redo some things,

00:34:55.590 --> 00:34:57.450
those were the real challenges we faced.

00:34:58.770 --> 00:35:00.450
But right from the beginning,
we were very clear.

00:35:00.450 --> 00:35:02.230
Agriculture was a big focus.

00:35:02.259 --> 00:35:07.150
To see it has a viable likelihood
rather than what is happening across

00:35:07.150 --> 00:35:10.030
the country, which is abandonment of
land and abandonment of agriculture.

00:35:10.590 --> 00:35:10.930
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:35:13.390 --> 00:35:18.430
So what are some of the tensions
that you see between the growing

00:35:18.450 --> 00:35:23.340
educational and economic aspirations
of the underprivileged sections, that

00:35:23.340 --> 00:35:30.030
is the youth that you work with, and
the loss of the indigenous knowledge

00:35:30.030 --> 00:35:33.640
systems or what they bring in?

00:35:35.049 --> 00:35:42.560
So what are some of the tensions
that you see at that juncture there?

00:35:46.030 --> 00:35:50.410
Dr. Vasavi: So what's happening is, the
way in which the mainstream systems,

00:35:50.410 --> 00:35:55.549
either agriculture, education, health,
construction and architecture, all of

00:35:55.570 --> 00:35:58.640
those are bringing in are practices and
knowledge system that lead to practices

00:35:58.640 --> 00:36:02.479
that are really not relevant for them.

00:36:08.529 --> 00:36:17.020
For example, the kind of agriculture
that is coming in, it's based

00:36:17.020 --> 00:36:17.161
on the wet cultivation models.

00:36:17.161 --> 00:36:17.169
It's not meant for dry areas.

00:36:17.169 --> 00:36:23.600
It's based on chemicals and new kinds of
very extractive technologies, et cetera.

00:36:24.020 --> 00:36:27.430
These are marginalized, long
evolved agriculture systems.

00:36:27.460 --> 00:36:31.140
Systems in which they
understood the ecology as well.

00:36:31.370 --> 00:36:36.859
They knew certain crop systems, cropping
patterns, cultivation systems, et cetera,

00:36:36.999 --> 00:36:38.710
and even processing and conservation.

00:36:39.010 --> 00:36:43.082
For example, conservation
of seeds and et cetera.

00:36:43.082 --> 00:36:45.546
So it was a whole [inaudible] play, the
spectrum of activities they would've had.

00:36:45.546 --> 00:36:50.819
So we've seen that those have
already been eroded, there

00:36:50.819 --> 00:36:54.579
is very little actually left.

00:36:54.579 --> 00:36:58.670
So in such a context where the
mainstream education system absorbed

00:36:58.710 --> 00:37:03.000
youth into a mainstream knowledge
system, but also does not give them

00:37:03.140 --> 00:37:06.529
employment in a mainstream system.

00:37:06.529 --> 00:37:11.659
For example, we know from data,
millions of youths are graduates or

00:37:13.830 --> 00:37:18.799
have graduated, either master's level
or bachelors level, but don't get jobs.

00:37:19.380 --> 00:37:22.690
And hundreds of thousands of
PhD holders are now applying

00:37:22.690 --> 00:37:24.545
for clerical jobs, et cetera.

00:37:24.870 --> 00:37:29.569
So unemployment is a huge issue and
under employment is also a huge issue.

00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:30.790
So there is the biggest disjuncture.

00:37:32.040 --> 00:37:35.600
You've had an education system that
really doesn't fit into the existing

00:37:35.600 --> 00:37:39.570
economy or the economy is not
able to absorb such large numbers.

00:37:40.200 --> 00:37:44.109
Which is why you need, and later I want to
talk about it, more you need alternative

00:37:44.109 --> 00:37:48.590
imaginaries, new different kinds of
imaginaries of what economies can be and

00:37:48.690 --> 00:37:54.720
should be, and also then complimentary to
that, educational and employment systems.

00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:01.420
The second is the tension between the
new kinds of aspirations that the media

00:38:01.420 --> 00:38:04.500
has promoted, to what is available.

00:38:05.510 --> 00:38:11.430
There're huge gaps between their
aspirations and their realities.

00:38:11.590 --> 00:38:15.210
They all aspire, for example, of
course, clothes have become relatively

00:38:15.210 --> 00:38:17.000
cheap, mass produced clothes.

00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:21.355
So you see the first forms of distinction
that you would have, it would be in

00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:27.170
the new kinds of styling, the clothes
that they have, but also desires for

00:38:27.290 --> 00:38:34.250
motorbikes or vehicles or mobiles,
either kinds of accessories, new kinds of

00:38:34.290 --> 00:38:38.764
entertainment, new kinds of food systems,
foods that they want to have, et cetera.

00:38:38.764 --> 00:38:42.948
Theses are the ones have created a lot of
tensions within families and households.

00:38:42.948 --> 00:38:43.435
We know, for example, conflicts
between parents and children

00:38:43.490 --> 00:38:55.619
are primarily over their lack of
access to getting these goods.

00:38:55.849 --> 00:38:59.699
We also know this is also one of the
reasons for dowry rates to have increased

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:05.750
so much and dowry demands are also demands
of kind, you want so much gold, you want a

00:39:05.810 --> 00:39:08.549
car, you want a tractor, things like that.

00:39:10.420 --> 00:39:16.260
All of these are existing on huge gaps
between people's abilities to pay for this

00:39:16.490 --> 00:39:18.413
or to afford this, versus aspirations.

00:39:18.413 --> 00:39:22.300
So I think these are really the
big problems of mainstream system.

00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:32.660
Gayithri: In that case, what are
your comments on environmental

00:39:32.900 --> 00:39:37.400
and economic sustainability,
in relation to these tensions?

00:39:37.410 --> 00:39:44.910
How do you see the work that you're
doing, in relation to environmental and

00:39:44.910 --> 00:39:52.670
economic sustainability as addressing,
or speaking to these tensions.

00:39:52.799 --> 00:39:55.970
Dr. Vasavi: So it's directly related
to this because much of our studies

00:39:55.970 --> 00:40:00.560
have shown that current dominant
agriculture model and most of the

00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:03.419
economic systems are not viable at all.

00:40:03.419 --> 00:40:09.109
The failures are already very
visible, and to the victims also.

00:40:09.770 --> 00:40:11.870
But the alternatives don't exist.

00:40:13.060 --> 00:40:16.130
And that is what is really
the challenge, to create those

00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:23.219
alternatives, which make it give you,
viable at an economic level and also

00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:24.950
sustainable at an ecological level.

00:40:24.950 --> 00:40:32.510
But it's also a way for us to really
rethink the extent to which small

00:40:32.530 --> 00:40:34.140
alternative models can be scaled up.

00:40:34.140 --> 00:40:38.277
This is something that many people
ask us and I say, you know-This is

00:40:38.277 --> 00:40:38.380
something that many people ask us.

00:40:38.380 --> 00:40:41.410
And I say, "don't look at small
examples of endeavors as something

00:40:41.410 --> 00:40:42.643
that they must be scaled up, right?"

00:40:42.643 --> 00:40:43.069
Gayithri: Scaled up.

00:40:43.240 --> 00:40:45.069
Dr. Vasavi: Onus
shouldn't be placed on us.

00:40:45.069 --> 00:40:47.611
What you're looking at are
multiple models of practice.

00:40:47.611 --> 00:40:49.190
Gayithri: Of those small things, yeah.

00:40:49.430 --> 00:40:49.930
Dr. Vasavi: What is available?

00:40:50.200 --> 00:40:53.540
What should be is viable here need
not be viable for Kashmir or Kerala.

00:40:53.540 --> 00:40:54.371
Every region is going to have its dynamics
and we need different kinds of work.

00:40:54.371 --> 00:40:54.462
So don't always talk about scaling up.

00:40:54.462 --> 00:40:54.552
I don't even want to scale up.

00:40:54.552 --> 00:40:54.694
The other really challenge is in
working on an alternative, you

00:40:54.694 --> 00:40:56.903
have to, by default work on it on a
small scale, because you don't know,

00:40:56.903 --> 00:40:56.924
you're not working on a blueprint.

00:40:56.924 --> 00:40:56.961
It has to be evolved into constantly
integrating many, many factors.

00:40:56.961 --> 00:40:56.982
And many, many sources and agencies.

00:40:56.982 --> 00:40:56.999
So it must be small.

00:40:56.999 --> 00:40:57.013
It must be manageable.

00:40:57.013 --> 00:40:57.030
It must be deeply personalized.

00:40:57.030 --> 00:40:57.078
It cannot be like anything people ask
us, it's like, "oh, only 24 students.

00:40:57.078 --> 00:40:57.089
It's not scalable."

00:40:57.089 --> 00:40:57.113
They would say, "it's not cost effective."

00:40:57.113 --> 00:40:57.182
"How can you have so many
teachers for just 24?

00:40:57.182 --> 00:40:57.184
It's not really worth it.

00:40:57.184 --> 00:40:57.186
You must have minimum 100."

00:40:57.186 --> 00:40:58.889
I immediately say, "no, we cannot
view because this has to be a

00:40:58.889 --> 00:42:02.680
personalized course and you need
a small mass of students who can

00:42:02.750 --> 00:42:06.471
actually become catalysts," and
this is a learning for us also.

00:42:06.471 --> 00:42:09.005
Every step, every course
we have also learned.

00:42:09.005 --> 00:42:11.640
We fine tune, we change tracks.

00:42:11.969 --> 00:42:17.209
For example, a big learning for us
was the extent to which students

00:42:17.209 --> 00:42:20.385
don't read much because there are no
reading cultures in these families.

00:42:20.870 --> 00:42:25.800
And with the inclusion of the both
television and now the mobile based

00:42:25.850 --> 00:42:30.900
media, social media, the little
that existed has also vanished.

00:42:31.660 --> 00:42:35.290
So, if you give them five page thing to
read and come back, say the next day or

00:42:35.290 --> 00:42:36.835
a week later, they still haven't read it.

00:42:36.835 --> 00:42:41.400
So we've seen how distant, you
have to teach them to actually read

00:42:42.370 --> 00:42:44.865
Gayithri: Making it a practice.

00:42:44.865 --> 00:42:46.850
Dr. Vasavi: Practice and the
culture of reading itself.

00:42:48.120 --> 00:42:51.790
So I think these are not only
challenges, but also linked

00:42:51.799 --> 00:42:53.769
to the sustainability issues.

00:42:53.869 --> 00:42:57.539
How do you sustain the program itself?

00:42:58.850 --> 00:43:00.102
How do you sustain them through
a program and how do you sustain

00:43:00.102 --> 00:43:01.230
the program over the years?

00:43:01.230 --> 00:43:05.540
For example, it's only now after the six
or seven batch, we're getting inquiries

00:43:05.770 --> 00:43:07.829
from other villages, of other people.

00:43:07.989 --> 00:43:09.049
It's very, very slow.

00:43:12.180 --> 00:43:15.100
So yeah, these are the multiple
issues that we have to grapple with.

00:43:16.120 --> 00:43:16.450
Gayithri: Wow.

00:43:16.850 --> 00:43:22.422
Yeah, I can imagine because I'm also
from Karnataka and I've been to some of

00:43:22.422 --> 00:43:30.160
the places that you're talking about,
so I can imagine how it may be a very

00:43:30.170 --> 00:43:35.250
slow, evolving, organic process because
it is so contradictory to what people

00:43:35.470 --> 00:43:40.050
are used to, what people aspire for when
it is a program, what is it that they

00:43:40.050 --> 00:43:43.799
expect from a program, and how do you...

00:43:44.049 --> 00:43:48.180
Yeah, it's a constant battle because
you're kind of going head on with

00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:52.280
the cultures that are existing
on the ground at that point.

00:43:54.300 --> 00:43:59.140
Yeah and in your work, I know we are
moving in that direction, I think

00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:00.730
this is going to be then perfect.

00:44:01.169 --> 00:44:04.780
You've often highlighted the need
for educational institutions to

00:44:04.780 --> 00:44:10.330
play a role in social transformation
rather than reproducing the dominant

00:44:10.350 --> 00:44:12.190
structures that we just spoke about.

00:44:13.890 --> 00:44:17.630
Can you elaborate on what kind
of transformation you believe

00:44:18.030 --> 00:44:20.900
education should facilitate?

00:44:21.790 --> 00:44:27.480
And of course, I'm sure you can also
draw from your own existing work for how

00:44:27.540 --> 00:44:35.109
you are doing it in your program, but
what is it that you aspire or what you

00:44:35.130 --> 00:44:39.809
think educational institution should do,
if what is that alternative imaginary?

00:44:42.670 --> 00:44:45.870
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah, so just to define
what social transformation would be

00:44:45.870 --> 00:44:52.949
is to endow learners with capacity,
to not only rethink, but to, in

00:44:52.949 --> 00:44:58.509
order to be particularly aware of
their conditions, to see through

00:44:58.510 --> 00:45:01.340
information, for its relevance.

00:45:01.340 --> 00:45:07.880
But also to have those capacities,
to challenge systems of exploitation,

00:45:08.340 --> 00:45:13.880
of hierarchy, of discrimination,
which in most conditions is accepted

00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:19.530
and internalized, as legitimate, as
inevitable, but also to have deep, good

00:45:19.570 --> 00:45:23.510
understandings of how larger systems
work, to understand the potential of

00:45:23.510 --> 00:45:33.640
democracy, to understand the potential
of what real learning can give you, not

00:45:33.640 --> 00:45:35.339
just textbook based learning and to come
out as both, not only active citizens,

00:45:35.609 --> 00:45:40.450
but also as empowered individuals
within their families, within their

00:45:40.690 --> 00:45:43.999
communities and then on a larger platform.

00:45:44.689 --> 00:45:49.527
So that is what I think social
transformation learning should be about.

00:45:49.527 --> 00:45:56.260
For example, we've had cases, very,
very small examples of how some

00:45:56.260 --> 00:45:59.950
of these learners that you really
struck out, because of this course.

00:45:59.950 --> 00:46:02.850
And these speak about it.

00:46:02.850 --> 00:46:06.170
For example, girls who refused
to get married, saying that,

00:46:07.160 --> 00:46:12.560
just to anybody saying, "I need
to know more about the boy."

00:46:12.560 --> 00:46:15.819
Or a girl who said, "I know
this boy is an alcoholic.

00:46:15.850 --> 00:46:18.875
Why are you getting me married to him?"

00:46:18.875 --> 00:46:20.296
Or, even putting her foot down and saying,
"okay, just let me be for a while."

00:46:20.296 --> 00:46:20.316
So just asserting themselves.

00:46:20.316 --> 00:46:20.357
To give you an example, when
demonetization happened,

00:46:20.357 --> 00:46:20.378
everything was in disarray.

00:46:20.378 --> 00:46:20.409
We had not met that week.

00:46:20.409 --> 00:46:20.435
It was not a thing.

00:46:20.435 --> 00:46:20.507
And it was a week after demonetization
and we knew everybody was really struck,

00:46:20.507 --> 00:46:20.548
you know, with a mess that they created.

00:46:20.548 --> 00:46:20.664
When we met after week, we always start
with what had happened the previous

00:46:20.664 --> 00:46:21.859
week, just then demonetization was big.

00:46:21.859 --> 00:46:21.913
So we asked them and we were so pleased
that many of them refused to give, the

00:46:21.913 --> 00:46:21.960
shops within overnight, if you took them
a bill, they would give you whatever you

00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:21.982
wanted, but take like 10%, 20% commission.

00:46:21.982 --> 00:46:22.007
And these girls would
go to medical stores.

00:46:22.007 --> 00:46:22.054
They said, "if you don't give us at that
rate without the commission, we won't

00:46:22.054 --> 00:46:22.221
buy from you," and they walked off.

00:46:22.221 --> 00:46:22.398
And that fellow had to call them back and
say, "okay, I'll just give it to you."

00:46:22.398 --> 00:47:21.629
So no, asserting themselves at those
levels, in the banks where some of the

00:47:21.629 --> 00:47:26.080
boys told us, they just said, "when
they asked us for commissions, we said,

00:47:26.110 --> 00:47:27.600
no, this is the government rules."

00:47:27.820 --> 00:47:30.822
So knowing about rules and
regulations and asserting themselves.

00:47:30.822 --> 00:47:36.653
So we had small, small cases of people
really trying to assert themselves

00:47:37.040 --> 00:47:42.409
in some ways through the new kinds
of empowerment that they had.

00:47:42.409 --> 00:47:47.009
For example, now, last year we've had
village level elections and several

00:47:47.010 --> 00:47:48.875
of our students stood for elections.

00:47:49.160 --> 00:47:53.280
And some of the things they had
learned was, of course some said, "you

00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:57.560
can't stand without a party and it's
only the party that gives you money.

00:47:57.580 --> 00:48:01.785
And we have to pay people to work for us."

00:48:01.785 --> 00:48:03.222
Paying and all that, the
usual corrupt systems.

00:48:03.222 --> 00:48:05.509
They said, "no, you have to challenge it."

00:48:05.910 --> 00:48:09.380
How candidates who are capable
should come, how do you elect,

00:48:09.530 --> 00:48:12.720
think about if you are a candidate
for [inaudible] and they've had...

00:48:13.149 --> 00:48:16.219
Of four, five who stood for
elections, three lost and two won,

00:48:16.930 --> 00:48:17.287
but both of them were very proud.

00:48:17.287 --> 00:48:18.310
And even the ones who lost,
they said, "we're very proud.

00:48:21.620 --> 00:48:26.149
We don't feel that things because
we've lost by a few like 60 votes, 70

00:48:26.149 --> 00:48:27.749
votes, but I didn't spend anything.

00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:29.450
I wasn't corrupt."

00:48:30.100 --> 00:48:33.080
So in a very small ways where we trying
to get them also to become part of

00:48:33.080 --> 00:48:34.820
the system, to become accountable.

00:48:35.040 --> 00:48:41.790
So I think that is what social
transformative learning should

00:48:41.790 --> 00:48:47.685
enable us to really undo some of
the systems that are higher up.

00:48:47.685 --> 00:48:51.170
For example, boys now tell
us that, "earlier, we never

00:48:51.170 --> 00:48:52.660
washed our plates after a meal.

00:48:53.369 --> 00:48:57.310
Now we've become so gender
sensitive, we wash our plates."

00:48:57.600 --> 00:48:59.780
Some of the boys who said,
"we've never carried water."

00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:02.270
They have to go to the
common tap and carry water.

00:49:03.310 --> 00:49:04.461
It was always, it continues.

00:49:04.461 --> 00:49:06.000
We've seen it so much.

00:49:06.450 --> 00:49:09.039
A matter of shame for a man
to be found carrying water.

00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:09.729
Its a woman's task.

00:49:09.729 --> 00:49:12.076
So you've said, "you'll,
be using the water.

00:49:12.076 --> 00:49:12.630
Why should you not go and get it?

00:49:12.630 --> 00:49:15.670
Why do you see your sisters,
your mother carry water?"

00:49:16.210 --> 00:49:17.950
So many boys now carry water.

00:49:18.630 --> 00:49:22.364
Some of them have told us how their
friends laugh at their first time trip.

00:49:22.420 --> 00:49:25.740
And, but then they get used to it.

00:49:25.740 --> 00:49:30.730
So really challenging systems, really
big struggles have been at the level of

00:49:30.839 --> 00:49:39.370
the field of doing organic agriculture,
trying to get back to systems, for

00:49:39.370 --> 00:49:41.549
more sustainable systems, et cetera.

00:49:41.789 --> 00:49:44.070
So bringing about that transformation
at the individual level itself, not

00:49:44.210 --> 00:49:51.505
really waiting for big macro changes
to happen, but our thing is that for

00:49:51.505 --> 00:49:54.950
the big macro changes to happen you
need persons, you need people to also

00:49:55.190 --> 00:49:59.789
to have an understanding, to become
those agencies of transformation.

00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:00.450
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:50:00.969 --> 00:50:01.219
Yeah.

00:50:01.490 --> 00:50:02.380
No, that's phenomenal.

00:50:02.780 --> 00:50:06.370
And before we continue, I know we
are just halfway through, is it

00:50:06.370 --> 00:50:11.520
okay if we extended our conversation
for about another 30 minutes or so?

00:50:11.910 --> 00:50:12.200
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

00:50:12.380 --> 00:50:12.960
Yeah, sure.

00:50:12.990 --> 00:50:14.399
I hope my internet holds.

00:50:14.399 --> 00:50:21.390
Gayithri: If you prefer, we can
also we can stop our videos if it

00:50:21.490 --> 00:50:25.130
gets there, although I would love
to see you as long as possible.

00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:25.850
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

00:50:25.850 --> 00:50:26.160
Yeah.

00:50:26.470 --> 00:50:27.370
We'll continue.

00:50:27.470 --> 00:50:27.709
Yeah.

00:50:27.790 --> 00:50:28.800
Gayithri: Yeah, thank you so much.

00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:29.290
Thank you.

00:50:29.730 --> 00:50:33.990
So yeah, no, it has been definitely
phenomenal listening to you.

00:50:33.990 --> 00:50:38.529
So what have been some of the key
takeaways from your program now that

00:50:38.530 --> 00:50:43.379
you've run it for these many years,
you've actually faced a lot of challenges.

00:50:43.589 --> 00:50:44.519
It's not been easy.

00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:50.240
You're still constantly battling
with the ongoing understanding of

00:50:50.270 --> 00:50:56.660
what it means to live a life and
what is it to do so sustainably.

00:50:56.660 --> 00:51:00.189
As you're battling all these and
trying to move towards social

00:51:00.190 --> 00:51:04.649
transformation, what have been
some of the key takeaways for you?

00:51:05.600 --> 00:51:10.640
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah, the key learnings for
us has been one really big one, which we

00:51:10.640 --> 00:51:10.928
were not prepared for is the extent to
which an alternative program like ours,

00:51:10.928 --> 00:51:20.450
which is really positioning itself against
the mainstream and the limitations of

00:51:20.450 --> 00:51:26.970
the mainstream, is to also start with
the process of unlearning because the

00:51:26.970 --> 00:51:34.999
mainstream education system has imprinted
them in so significant a way that what

00:51:34.999 --> 00:51:36.679
transactions, learning transactions
we engage with is not received at all.

00:51:37.489 --> 00:51:38.950
It kind of bounces back.

00:51:38.950 --> 00:51:39.340
So what is that process of unlearning?

00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:44.200
So that was something we really
had to work on, especially

00:51:44.200 --> 00:51:46.790
from the second batch onwards.

00:51:46.790 --> 00:51:49.110
To cite things that they knew
and then say, "okay, we think

00:51:49.110 --> 00:51:52.080
it that's really not true.

00:51:52.120 --> 00:51:54.419
That's not right or true or relevant."

00:51:54.900 --> 00:51:56.600
And then think differently.

00:51:57.170 --> 00:52:00.720
So for example, even things, that
you read only for an examination.

00:52:01.510 --> 00:52:03.330
But you are not reading for yourself.

00:52:03.510 --> 00:52:11.730
So unlearning was something
very, very, very important for

00:52:11.730 --> 00:52:16.349
us that they had to undergo.

00:52:16.349 --> 00:52:22.091
For example, unlearning their own
behavior, excessive differential

00:52:22.091 --> 00:52:22.099
behavior in front of us.

00:52:22.099 --> 00:52:25.960
Excessive exclusion, with gender
exclusion, the boys not sitting next to

00:52:25.960 --> 00:52:27.819
girls or girls not sitting next to boys.

00:52:28.469 --> 00:52:34.810
So, unlearning what practices you
had and the kind of habitus you

00:52:34.810 --> 00:52:40.230
came with to become something new,
to inculcate a new habitus for

00:52:40.230 --> 00:52:42.140
something that we had to work on.

00:52:42.969 --> 00:52:47.819
The other big learning was that the
students needed, as I mentioned very

00:52:47.999 --> 00:52:51.770
briefly, we found that the cost,
which we did over by the four and

00:52:51.770 --> 00:52:56.380
a half months to five months, about
60 days stretched over all these

00:52:56.560 --> 00:52:59.420
many months, was very inadequate.

00:53:00.410 --> 00:53:04.950
So for that learning to sustain
and to really become part of

00:53:04.950 --> 00:53:08.759
their lives, we had to mentor
them for much, much longer times.

00:53:11.250 --> 00:53:12.770
So how would that mentoring be?

00:53:12.950 --> 00:53:16.490
For example, after the first thing,
we started having alumni meet once

00:53:16.490 --> 00:53:20.580
a month, they would come discuss,
share, they enjoyed meeting each other

00:53:20.870 --> 00:53:24.210
where they sing a few songs, they do
little thing and do fun things, but

00:53:24.210 --> 00:53:27.290
also read, think of ideas etc and go.

00:53:27.430 --> 00:53:29.930
Even then we found it
very, very inadequate.

00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:35.230
So we had to make subgroups, those who are
doing agriculture, what would they need?

00:53:35.520 --> 00:53:36.790
How would they share things?

00:53:37.059 --> 00:53:42.689
Or the girls who are now
married, what would they do?

00:53:42.779 --> 00:53:43.890
Or the girls who are doing little bit
of tailoring or some other thing, or the

00:53:43.890 --> 00:53:45.930
girls who wanted to be like, anything.

00:53:45.950 --> 00:53:47.559
So subgroups were formed.

00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:53.370
But constant mentoring and handholding,
also a lot of counseling, we found,

00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:57.775
for example, some of the girls
after the course, because the

00:53:57.880 --> 00:54:03.939
course suddenly had enabled them
to be free, to see what they want..

00:54:03.939 --> 00:54:04.303
Gayithri: Liberating.

00:54:04.303 --> 00:54:05.620
Dr. Vasavi: Liberating, yeah.

00:54:06.190 --> 00:54:10.605
To learn, to sing, some of them started
dancing, they would do a little bit.

00:54:10.605 --> 00:54:14.360
Some even they got married and they
were really under lock and key.

00:54:15.030 --> 00:54:17.969
Some of them went to depression
and we sensed it from just

00:54:17.969 --> 00:54:19.119
talking to them on the phone.

00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:24.180
So we actually had to intervene, visit
them, get counselors to visit them.

00:54:26.240 --> 00:54:29.220
Some of them started feeling this
tension of who do we choose between our

00:54:29.220 --> 00:54:32.150
families, Punarchith, and our bygroup.

00:54:32.550 --> 00:54:34.540
So we told them, "you have
to choose your families.

00:54:34.540 --> 00:54:35.939
You don't have to choose us.

00:54:36.429 --> 00:54:40.560
You must choose your families,
because that is really the long term.

00:54:40.590 --> 00:54:46.559
But you have to learn slowly to negotiate
with them, to get these ideas with them."

00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:52.720
And where, if you actually it's the
girls who really strategize better.

00:54:52.750 --> 00:54:58.230
Someone who now joined us as a
team, she went, she got married.

00:54:58.230 --> 00:55:00.080
She even had two children and it
was her mother-in-law who brought

00:55:00.080 --> 00:55:04.074
her back to us and said, okay,
"you can take her, employ her.

00:55:04.074 --> 00:55:06.570
She can become part of
your team and all that."

00:55:06.570 --> 00:55:10.239
So, because she had worked on
her mother-in-law so much saying,

00:55:10.309 --> 00:55:12.877
"this is what they're doing.

00:55:12.877 --> 00:55:13.102
This is where I should be.

00:55:13.140 --> 00:55:16.390
I can do this for my children
and we can do this in our house."

00:55:16.390 --> 00:55:16.490
So somehow she convinced that lady,
"let's think differently" stuff.

00:55:16.500 --> 00:55:26.230
So, there have been moments when
they disengage completely from us,

00:55:26.230 --> 00:55:29.989
which we don't mind, when they're
these tensions, but slowly they can

00:55:30.339 --> 00:55:34.020
rework in that, but they should not
have this burden of having to choose.

00:55:35.490 --> 00:55:37.790
Between sections or options.

00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:44.140
So the long-term scaffolding…
this emotional scaffolding is

00:55:44.299 --> 00:55:45.515
something very, very important.

00:55:45.515 --> 00:55:49.569
One, not only gender issues, but
also many of them come from such

00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:55.640
a disadvantaged past groups where
family histories are of long, long

00:55:55.650 --> 00:55:58.210
generations of abuse and exploitation.

00:55:58.210 --> 00:56:01.220
For example, people who come from
families that were in bonded labor for

00:56:01.220 --> 00:56:04.109
years, there's complete subservient
to anyone outsiders they see..

00:56:04.109 --> 00:56:04.363
to a larger system.

00:56:04.363 --> 00:56:10.060
How do they really
stand up for themselves?

00:56:10.060 --> 00:56:14.900
Recognizing what are their rights
as individuals, as human beings,

00:56:15.500 --> 00:56:19.030
as members of a democracy.

00:56:19.590 --> 00:56:25.759
So that I think is something one needs to
work on beyond the formal sessions, very,

00:56:25.759 --> 00:56:31.130
very, one to one, very much contextualized
in their situation and long term, long

00:56:31.290 --> 00:56:36.232
prolonged years, some of them, you know,
from our first batch in 2012 to now also

00:56:36.232 --> 00:56:44.510
we continue to talk to people to have
[inaudible] , so that's been a huge thing.

00:56:44.510 --> 00:56:44.810
Gayithri: Fantastic.

00:56:45.110 --> 00:56:48.990
And anything else that you want
to add about your program that we

00:56:48.990 --> 00:56:53.120
couldn't actually talk about or we
couldn't touch upon before we move

00:56:53.139 --> 00:56:54.970
on to the next part of the questions?

00:56:55.530 --> 00:56:55.840
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:57.743
No, I think we've covered it all.

00:56:57.743 --> 00:56:58.186
Gayithri: Okay.

00:56:58.629 --> 00:56:59.009
Thank you.

00:57:00.109 --> 00:57:05.023
So moving on to your personal journey,
you as a person where you started and

00:57:05.023 --> 00:57:09.950
where you are now and what the journey
was like, getting into a few of those

00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:12.280
kinds of questions and conversations.

00:57:13.230 --> 00:57:19.640
So I'm going to take you back, way
back in the time period, back then

00:57:20.980 --> 00:57:28.870
what got you interested to actually
be in academia when you chose to that?

00:57:29.610 --> 00:57:31.729
What were some of the thoughts?

00:57:31.730 --> 00:57:35.149
What were some of the things that got
into that decision making process?

00:57:35.209 --> 00:57:38.090
Why academia and what were
your response back then?

00:57:38.570 --> 00:57:45.799
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah, I don't come from
an academic family and my parents

00:57:45.799 --> 00:57:49.270
had very little formal education.

00:57:49.500 --> 00:57:51.022
They were very extremely erudite and
very well read people in their own

00:57:51.022 --> 00:57:57.588
ways, very economically successful in
their mid life, which accounts for the

00:57:57.588 --> 00:58:00.340
kind of very privileged education I
had, being sent to a boarding school,

00:58:00.680 --> 00:58:04.740
right from the time I was seven, to
a very expensive colleges, et cetera.

00:58:04.740 --> 00:58:09.410
And I was a very average student.

00:58:10.120 --> 00:58:17.359
I was not a good student or one of
the toppers at all and I don't think

00:58:17.359 --> 00:58:21.152
I had, kind of a purely intellectual
bent of mind, maybe it was only

00:58:21.152 --> 00:58:28.259
after my masters or so, that the
world of ideas opened up to me.

00:58:29.959 --> 00:58:32.210
But in the early years it was much more...

00:58:32.220 --> 00:58:35.670
From a very formative years, I was
very sure that I wanted to work.

00:58:38.080 --> 00:58:41.770
I did not want to have a very
conventional marriage, children

00:58:42.100 --> 00:58:45.649
kind of life, I wanted to work.

00:58:45.649 --> 00:58:47.359
I wanted to be independent.

00:58:47.529 --> 00:58:48.840
These were the concerns.

00:58:48.990 --> 00:58:55.559
I knew what I did not want, but I wasn't
sure of what I wanted in terms of, I

00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:59.213
don't want to be a lawyer, et cetera.

00:58:59.213 --> 00:59:00.583
So my really...

00:59:01.040 --> 00:59:06.959
Change thing came in, when I went to
the Delhi School of Economics and not

00:59:07.089 --> 00:59:12.320
only the course was very good, very well
designed, very well developed over the

00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:22.060
years, but the friends in the hostel and
in the school also, were just phenomenal.

00:59:22.450 --> 00:59:25.399
They came from much more sort
of the urban elite backgrounds,

00:59:25.740 --> 00:59:26.820
but they'd been exposed.

00:59:27.490 --> 00:59:31.734
It was in the 80s in which many of them
had come out from the 70s movements.

00:59:31.734 --> 00:59:33.700
They were very well read.

00:59:33.860 --> 00:59:37.310
They were activists.

00:59:37.310 --> 00:59:43.849
They were politically very
astute, very politically aware.

00:59:44.089 --> 00:59:49.390
So it was from them that I learned
the need to kind of question my own

00:59:49.400 --> 00:59:56.269
background, the kind of privileges
I had, especially both my class

00:59:56.269 --> 00:59:58.889
position and my caste position.

01:00:00.099 --> 01:00:05.299
And it was from there and
academia, I kind of entered to...

01:00:05.299 --> 01:00:09.540
I kind of just slipped into it
as, "okay, now, what shall I do?

01:00:09.570 --> 01:00:11.009
This is the only thing that I know."

01:00:13.149 --> 01:00:17.830
It was formal education teaching
or… Reading books or things,

01:00:17.830 --> 01:00:22.100
but it wasn't about chasing
an idea or even a discipline.

01:00:22.820 --> 01:00:27.260
I had gotten into sociology because that
just seemed interesting, that time that

01:00:27.260 --> 01:00:29.530
was available then of course it was.

01:00:29.570 --> 01:00:34.110
And in the US, the sociology
became social anthropology.

01:00:34.230 --> 01:00:43.939
But to seek a life of ideas was really
at much more, at the doctoral level.

01:00:43.939 --> 01:00:46.370
I think that I already started
reading much more, thinking much

01:00:46.730 --> 01:00:53.760
more, but this was something to go
beyond a career, that kind of set

01:00:53.799 --> 01:00:55.570
in when I was doing my doctorate.

01:00:57.220 --> 01:00:57.480
Gayithri: Nice.

01:00:57.960 --> 01:00:59.690
And then what happened?

01:01:00.230 --> 01:01:02.790
You did your doctoral and what happened?

01:01:03.250 --> 01:01:10.560
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah, I came back to
India, 93, 94, just when the whole

01:01:10.560 --> 01:01:17.100
liberalism [economic] was starting
and a lot of debates, et cetera, and

01:01:17.150 --> 01:01:19.440
institutions were really in a huge crisis.

01:01:19.510 --> 01:01:26.590
Many of the known institutions, well,
facing funding problems, it was very

01:01:26.590 --> 01:01:29.610
difficult to get jobs, et cetera.

01:01:29.610 --> 01:01:33.910
And so there were very few private
institutions, I joined the National

01:01:33.910 --> 01:01:38.380
Institute of Advanced Studies at the
invitation of Professor MN Srinivas,

01:01:38.429 --> 01:01:40.330
and I stayed on there for 14 years.

01:01:40.330 --> 01:01:47.129
I learned a lot there, in
terms of institutions, but it

01:01:47.129 --> 01:01:48.519
was a difficult place to be.

01:01:48.619 --> 01:01:53.149
Because it was primarily an institution
that was set up by a nuclear physicist.

01:01:53.570 --> 01:01:56.829
The key people were all men, very
successful, national level kind

01:01:56.829 --> 01:02:00.639
of people, who would come there
in the post retirement phase.

01:02:00.879 --> 01:02:06.350
There were some of us, 30s, starting
our careers and social science

01:02:06.350 --> 01:02:08.440
people were really very marginal.

01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:11.009
Social science as a discipline,
as a subject, was marginal.

01:02:11.260 --> 01:02:15.584
The really big ones nuclear
physics, material studies.

01:02:15.584 --> 01:02:21.735
And we were meant to be handmaidens to
troubleshoot the problems of the nation.

01:02:21.780 --> 01:02:22.759
That's how we get treated.

01:02:22.930 --> 01:02:27.950
And we negotiated constantly for your
voice, to do what you wanted, et cetera.

01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:33.900
So it was very disheartening
and very difficult things to...

01:02:35.370 --> 01:02:35.710
Gayithri: Navigate.

01:02:35.710 --> 01:02:36.300
Dr. Vasavi: To strategize.

01:02:36.650 --> 01:02:41.560
Yeah, to navigate and the doctoral
program started much later.

01:02:41.560 --> 01:02:42.339
It was interesting.

01:02:42.339 --> 01:02:49.129
They were very good students, and apart
there was always a [need] of having to

01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:51.330
go out, get your funding, do projects.

01:02:51.330 --> 01:02:55.720
So these project modes were very
disturbing, because you put so much time

01:02:55.720 --> 01:03:01.339
and effort, but by the time you could
publish or write it up and then publish

01:03:01.339 --> 01:03:05.380
it, you are already on another project.

01:03:05.380 --> 01:03:07.730
So, it was like project to
publish, but really very little

01:03:08.020 --> 01:03:09.320
time to reflectively think.

01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:13.540
I was also really very, started to
get very disillusioned with academia

01:03:14.140 --> 01:03:19.146
because I found that when you wanted
to publish a thing, there were always

01:03:19.330 --> 01:03:26.745
these dominant hegemonic theories that
were all that, that they imposed on you,

01:03:26.745 --> 01:03:31.859
that if you wanted to publish in certain
magazine or journals, you had to tow

01:03:31.859 --> 01:03:34.950
that kind of school that they endorsed.

01:03:35.400 --> 01:03:41.490
I did not see much where autonomy or
scope for creativity of new ideas at all.

01:03:41.610 --> 01:03:45.499
And just the whole process
seemed to be very laborious.

01:03:45.810 --> 01:03:50.593
So I was really not so interested
in publishing et cetera.

01:03:50.593 --> 01:03:54.760
Whatever publishing I did was
something that just came easily, I

01:03:54.790 --> 01:03:57.319
did not labor over all of it too much.

01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:06.660
The other thing was also, I think for how
you felt the onus of what we saw on the

01:04:06.660 --> 01:04:09.019
field versus the kind of lives one had.

01:04:09.700 --> 01:04:15.330
I was also itching towards just trying to
address, as I said, all these problems we

01:04:15.330 --> 01:04:19.800
saw on the ground about agriculture versus
ambience, trying to meld them together.

01:04:20.590 --> 01:04:27.852
So I just felt okay, I've had academia,
but academia has a life of ideas, it's

01:04:28.010 --> 01:04:29.659
something I can always carry with me.

01:04:29.659 --> 01:04:30.315
I don't need a formal institution,
I don't need to be bound by a

01:04:30.315 --> 01:04:30.350
salaried position to do what I want.

01:04:30.350 --> 01:04:46.209
So I would just brave it out and just work
out of these kind of formal institutional

01:04:46.219 --> 01:04:50.352
structures and see what could be done.

01:04:50.352 --> 01:04:51.107
And I'm very pleased to say
that it actually worked, I feel

01:04:51.170 --> 01:04:55.040
that my abilities to think out
of these established frameworks

01:04:55.520 --> 01:04:57.219
improved because I had the freedom.

01:04:57.599 --> 01:05:01.929
I didn't have to constantly be on this
treadmill of project, money, publish.

01:05:02.650 --> 01:05:03.912
Go for meetings, all this.

01:05:03.912 --> 01:05:06.790
It was a much smaller group,
we were looking at issues that

01:05:06.790 --> 01:05:07.720
were happening all around us.

01:05:09.590 --> 01:05:14.680
We didn't have to fit within the
theories, we had our own voices.

01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:20.020
It could be broadened experiences
and the lives we saw around us.

01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:27.546
So a range of studies came out from this
by just being in the field constantly.

01:05:27.546 --> 01:05:28.860
And also I also moved there.

01:05:29.300 --> 01:05:32.220
So I've been living in the
village full time, returning

01:05:32.220 --> 01:05:33.680
to the city only occasionally.

01:05:34.460 --> 01:05:39.410
And also started learning from both my
colleagues who were there who were working

01:05:39.410 --> 01:05:42.870
there, but also from the people, from the
students, from the families et cetera.

01:05:43.600 --> 01:05:45.332
For example, I have recently
been trying to see the household

01:05:45.332 --> 01:05:45.394
as a very, very important site.

01:05:45.394 --> 01:05:46.920
Not only as a family but the household
and the household dynamics, Which has been

01:05:54.889 --> 01:05:57.669
studied, but I feel not adequately enough.

01:05:58.240 --> 01:06:02.589
That really is now the microcosm
of all the complexities and

01:06:02.919 --> 01:06:04.059
the contradictions of India.

01:06:04.770 --> 01:06:10.100
And those burdens we see and those battles
are being fought within these walls.

01:06:10.760 --> 01:06:16.479
Also I think that is something that I've
come to only because I'm there maybe to

01:06:16.539 --> 01:06:22.443
watch it but to participate in so often.

01:06:22.443 --> 01:06:22.842
So I'm glad I left the
citadel of academia in this.

01:06:22.842 --> 01:06:28.565
But the ideas, the life of ideas has
been there and I think it's all been

01:06:28.565 --> 01:06:33.190
facilitated by new kinds of technologies,
for example being able to talk to you...

01:06:33.580 --> 01:06:38.130
have many webinars, meet students,
we have lectures online now.

01:06:38.759 --> 01:06:40.710
So, I think we've been very fortunate.

01:06:41.850 --> 01:06:41.870
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:06:42.490 --> 01:06:49.900
Maybe one question I had as an aspiring
scholar scholar, not in the sense of

01:06:49.900 --> 01:06:53.820
somebody who will sit in the ivory
tower of institutions, but somebody

01:06:53.820 --> 01:06:56.790
who aspires to make these differences.

01:06:56.890 --> 01:07:01.430
You mentioned that publishing and
running behind that whole thing

01:07:01.430 --> 01:07:03.340
was kind of like limiting you.

01:07:03.910 --> 01:07:09.700
So, and I know you kind of moved out of
that, but what would be your alternate,

01:07:10.039 --> 01:07:17.300
what is that other alternate reality
that you kind of hope to see in academia

01:07:17.410 --> 01:07:20.310
or what you actually left academia for?

01:07:23.059 --> 01:07:27.089
If not publishing, if not being
limited in those frameworks.

01:07:27.479 --> 01:07:31.130
Dr. Vasavi: You need to publish,
but you don't need to publish

01:07:32.300 --> 01:07:35.526
to make it as a part of your CV.

01:07:35.526 --> 01:07:40.649
You need to publish because you have
something to share and something to say.

01:07:40.649 --> 01:07:42.099
You say that is substantial.

01:07:42.540 --> 01:07:46.610
So you need to also, for example, I
publish much more on popular media now.

01:07:46.610 --> 01:07:51.130
I mean, it's newspapers, Kannada
newspapers or online, English

01:07:51.130 --> 01:07:52.680
magazines, things like that.

01:07:53.080 --> 01:07:54.377
Which I was not able to do earlier.

01:07:54.377 --> 01:07:55.953
So you need to, I want to keep
the importance of publishing.

01:07:55.953 --> 01:08:02.229
But where you do it, how
you do it also is important.

01:08:05.590 --> 01:08:09.956
But I think academia then, for example
I mean just to answer to what you had

01:08:09.956 --> 01:08:18.580
asked me to list out as things, what kinds
of transformation should we see at the

01:08:18.580 --> 01:08:22.809
educational institutions or researches.

01:08:22.809 --> 01:08:27.830
For example, against the new educational
policy that's been promoted since last

01:08:27.830 --> 01:08:29.320
year now, already being implemented.

01:08:29.930 --> 01:08:33.179
Of course they do say mother tongue
education is important, so that's one

01:08:33.179 --> 01:08:34.790
thing positive you need to pick up on.

01:08:35.590 --> 01:08:40.060
But for most scholars to also
become multilingual, because

01:08:40.389 --> 01:08:44.250
that's one of the ways in which we
can address the divides we have.

01:08:45.020 --> 01:08:49.200
I constantly, I myself
was schooled in Kannada.

01:08:49.400 --> 01:08:53.479
I was schooled into the, you know,
the Delhi ICSE is what I did.

01:08:53.779 --> 01:08:55.944
I did Hindi, although
Kannada was my mother tongue.

01:08:55.944 --> 01:08:59.549
And it was much later when I was thinking
that I said, no, this is my mother tongue.

01:08:59.580 --> 01:09:00.213
I should read it and write it
and I forced myself, I could

01:09:00.213 --> 01:09:04.389
choose things, I took courses.

01:09:04.389 --> 01:09:07.880
But now I constantly meet people
who are very proud, they say,

01:09:07.880 --> 01:09:09.026
oh I don't know the language.

01:09:09.026 --> 01:09:13.519
I want to give you an example now
during the COVID crisis where we do

01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:17.590
online support, we get people who
are under home quarantine to talk

01:09:17.830 --> 01:09:20.002
to certain doctors who are very
generously giving their time online.

01:09:20.002 --> 01:09:26.000
And then I was just shocked that these
are Bangladesh doctors, Kannada speakers,

01:09:26.010 --> 01:09:27.995
none of them can read and write Kannada.

01:09:28.160 --> 01:09:32.429
So when these people type on their
mobiles for WhatsApp, they're

01:09:32.429 --> 01:09:35.749
telling them--write it in Roman
script, we cannot read Kannada.

01:09:38.220 --> 01:09:41.069
And this I tell you is just
an example of the divides.

01:09:41.069 --> 01:09:46.479
We have other students who come who are
speaking Kannada or other languages in

01:09:46.479 --> 01:09:50.129
their home, but they said we don't know
these, we cannot read and write in these.

01:09:50.129 --> 01:09:53.080
So they cannot speak formally, you know.

01:09:53.700 --> 01:10:00.500
So unless this divide, this constantly
we've been dropping the Indian

01:10:00.500 --> 01:10:05.020
languages, in our right up from
nursery, from elementary school.

01:10:05.430 --> 01:10:11.580
Unless [inaudible] as both part of your
cognitive development which is very good.

01:10:12.150 --> 01:10:19.339
And then of course, you can pick English
up from middle school, but I think so

01:10:19.339 --> 01:10:21.300
bilingual capacities or multilingual
capacities which are very important.

01:10:21.420 --> 01:10:23.420
Which older generation scholars had.

01:10:25.139 --> 01:10:28.414
This is what the increasing growth
of private schools which are

01:10:28.559 --> 01:10:30.829
primarily English medium has done.

01:10:30.919 --> 01:10:34.849
So you have large numbers of people
who don't know their mother tongue,

01:10:35.110 --> 01:10:36.559
they can't read and write in it.

01:10:36.600 --> 01:10:41.010
They speak it, but they can't, they're
not sufficiently good even in English.

01:10:41.350 --> 01:10:43.263
In large numbers of students this is so.

01:10:43.469 --> 01:10:45.919
So this language problem
needs to be addressed.

01:10:46.650 --> 01:10:49.400
Second, what is it that you study?

01:10:51.190 --> 01:10:53.840
Researchers need to look at
issues that are not fashionable.

01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:59.000
Even now, I get proposals from the
universities and associated be it the

01:10:59.040 --> 01:11:01.270
doctoral proposals or even Master's.

01:11:01.730 --> 01:11:06.039
They just pick up an idea from some key
theorist and maybe want to check it out.

01:11:06.459 --> 01:11:10.280
But you forget to look at your vicinity,
to look at your immediate surroundings

01:11:10.300 --> 01:11:11.559
to see what are those issues.

01:11:11.560 --> 01:11:22.130
And there are hundreds of issues
that are calling attention

01:11:22.140 --> 01:11:22.516
to, that need to be studied.

01:11:22.516 --> 01:11:22.610
So that is one.

01:11:22.610 --> 01:11:23.050
The third is, I think, a lot of
time, this is something that I

01:11:23.050 --> 01:11:26.910
also faced, is the lack of an
intellectual community in India.

01:11:27.809 --> 01:11:30.480
There are large numbers of people
who are [inaudible] , but they

01:11:30.670 --> 01:11:34.290
need a community of people to
hand hold, to support each other.

01:11:35.710 --> 01:11:37.470
In academia it’s missing.

01:11:38.139 --> 01:11:46.450
Very, very few people support each other.

01:11:46.450 --> 01:11:48.960
Build up a corpus of work
together or pursue something

01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:50.330
over the long term et cetera.

01:11:50.620 --> 01:11:54.230
You see very, very little collaborations
taking place within India.

01:11:54.230 --> 01:11:57.780
People will collaborate with international
scholars et cetera, but not within.

01:11:58.609 --> 01:11:59.440
So I would say that.

01:11:59.469 --> 01:12:01.629
And finally, I think interdisciplinary.

01:12:02.009 --> 01:12:04.538
Questioning this disciplinary bar, so
boundaries and divides is very important.

01:12:04.560 --> 01:12:11.620
More and more has to, because all
knowledge need to be questioned.

01:12:11.620 --> 01:12:17.969
One of the things I always talk about
is, right now the way we brush our

01:12:18.010 --> 01:12:21.360
teeth to the way we use toilets are the
kinds of toilets are being questioned.

01:12:21.850 --> 01:12:26.910
So why not look at all knowledge
systems and say it's not just

01:12:27.340 --> 01:12:29.270
sociology versus political science.

01:12:29.559 --> 01:12:33.789
It has to be issue based, then bring
in the others' knowledge systems.

01:12:34.899 --> 01:12:39.759
So I think multidisciplinary
is very, very important.

01:12:39.810 --> 01:12:40.670
Gayithri: Yeah, for sure.

01:12:42.090 --> 01:12:47.530
And so, coming back to working, I know
you mentioned earlier and even now

01:12:47.530 --> 01:12:51.590
when we were talking about language,
it kind of felt like you were talking

01:12:51.590 --> 01:12:57.530
about how the current institutions,
the current systems do not necessarily

01:12:57.820 --> 01:13:02.130
support the disadvantaged or the
underserved communities as much.

01:13:02.750 --> 01:13:07.349
So what would be some key ideas and
issues that you think that needs to

01:13:07.839 --> 01:13:16.690
be redefined or rethought about for
it to work for these marginalized,

01:13:16.750 --> 01:13:20.390
underserved, minoritized communities?

01:13:23.239 --> 01:13:27.880
Dr. Vasavi: I would say it's in terms
of the structural system, the Indian

01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:31.509
educational system that is highly
differentiated needs to be challenged.

01:13:31.990 --> 01:13:35.980
We cannot have such a differentiated
system, which I've elaborated on, some

01:13:36.260 --> 01:13:38.390
nine different types of schooling systems.

01:13:38.740 --> 01:13:42.690
They really correlate,
correspond to different classes.

01:13:43.540 --> 01:13:48.449
So if not an absolute, one type of
schooling system, you need somewhere

01:13:49.710 --> 01:13:51.342
where there is a commonality.

01:13:51.342 --> 01:13:52.480
Where everybody's got to
a platform and then check.

01:13:53.259 --> 01:13:53.570
That is one.

01:13:53.790 --> 01:13:59.929
Secondly I would say that expansion of the
educational system on a mainstream mode.

01:14:00.370 --> 01:14:01.219
A mass mode.

01:14:01.639 --> 01:14:06.429
Without attention to quality has been
devastating and just produces a huge

01:14:06.440 --> 01:14:12.320
pool of people who just really cannot
fit into the mainstream economies

01:14:12.320 --> 01:14:14.402
of the system, nor can they fit into
the existing societies and culture.

01:14:14.402 --> 01:14:14.650
So that is something.

01:14:18.440 --> 01:14:24.289
So that learning loss that is taking place
at multiple levels needs to be questioned.

01:14:24.299 --> 01:14:32.409
So I think there I would say that to
address the issues for marginalized

01:14:32.409 --> 01:14:35.790
communities, it's very inadequate to
have a formal system of reservations

01:14:35.790 --> 01:14:42.040
or systems in which the system
is only formally accepted but

01:14:42.450 --> 01:14:47.110
within institutions disrespected
and distorted in so many ways.

01:14:47.380 --> 01:14:52.450
So there's a need to really review that in
a very substantial way, to go beyond that.

01:14:52.450 --> 01:14:59.509
To look at how inclusive education has
to happen in a much more integral way.

01:14:59.509 --> 01:15:04.450
It will be an endowment
coming across people.

01:15:04.539 --> 01:15:08.250
So for example, as part of the socio
transformational learning I've also talked

01:15:08.250 --> 01:15:12.010
about how the privileged also have to be
part of socio transformational learning.

01:15:13.240 --> 01:15:19.269
The privileged also have to take critical
perspectives like we have done about the

01:15:20.099 --> 01:15:22.000
type of privileged backgrounds we've had,
kind of privileges we continue to have and

01:15:22.019 --> 01:15:28.330
therefore it places a huge onus on us to
not only question it, you go beyond it.

01:15:29.260 --> 01:15:33.609
So I would say that education for
marginalized and disadvantaged

01:15:33.639 --> 01:15:37.230
communities needs to be both,
structurally we need different

01:15:37.230 --> 01:15:41.760
systems, and content and orientation
also it has to be very different.

01:15:42.240 --> 01:15:44.120
Inclusion cannot be just reservation.

01:15:44.120 --> 01:15:49.650
And also opportunities, kinds of
education systems, a plurality of

01:15:49.860 --> 01:15:57.627
all the systems need to be endorsed
and redone in a very significant way.

01:15:58.390 --> 01:15:58.590
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:15:58.960 --> 01:16:00.110
So much of work to do.

01:16:03.040 --> 01:16:09.110
So what theories or schools of
thoughts or works have informed you or

01:16:09.120 --> 01:16:16.780
shaped your work as you have actually
taken this journey, as you have done

01:16:16.780 --> 01:16:20.090
the work that you have been doing?

01:16:21.679 --> 01:16:21.699
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

01:16:24.109 --> 01:16:28.727
Early years, when I read Ivan Illich,
Deschooling Society, that is something

01:16:28.727 --> 01:16:41.000
that really struck me and later of course
I read his work on medicine, on energy.

01:16:41.420 --> 01:16:43.769
And more recently on the mediality.

01:16:43.839 --> 01:16:46.769
And I think the whole concept
of mediality is something

01:16:46.770 --> 01:16:49.389
that I really think much more.

01:16:49.400 --> 01:16:52.720
I think that it's an alternative to
this whole development paradigm we've

01:16:54.500 --> 01:16:56.328
had, to the neoclassical economics
that the societies are fit into.

01:16:56.328 --> 01:16:56.673
So Ivan Illich has been very significant.

01:16:56.673 --> 01:17:07.280
In India, I've always been, not always,
been kind of an admirer of Tagore.

01:17:07.460 --> 01:17:15.590
Tagore's ideas of holistic education,
I've been a huge admirer of his

01:17:15.590 --> 01:17:19.450
writing and his, of course, his
attempt in Shanti Niketan, which

01:17:19.450 --> 01:17:20.859
is really not a model anymore.

01:17:21.089 --> 01:17:24.280
But you know the politics
that has disrupted it.

01:17:24.340 --> 01:17:29.050
But the idea is still something
worth looking at and respecting.

01:17:29.560 --> 01:17:35.999
More recently, I've been very impressed
with Ganesh Devi’s work, the linguist

01:17:36.000 --> 01:17:40.550
who has also worked with enough
tribals where he has also talked about

01:17:40.580 --> 01:17:44.260
how our loss of languages has led
to a collective amnesia where we've

01:17:44.260 --> 01:17:46.780
forgotten our cultures, our identities.

01:17:47.430 --> 01:17:52.620
Not only he makes a call back for
it, it also talks about the end of

01:17:53.290 --> 01:17:57.623
critical consciousness, expansive,
that learning really should be a

01:17:57.623 --> 01:17:58.845
way to expand our consciousness,
therefore has forms of inclusion.

01:17:58.845 --> 01:17:58.920
So Ganesh Devi’s work is something
that I really do respect.

01:17:58.920 --> 01:17:59.110
So these have been some of the
seminal works I touch base on.

01:17:59.110 --> 01:18:19.130
Of course, John Dewey and the others,
several US writers are people I read.

01:18:19.130 --> 01:18:25.559
But I think ideas are from Illich,
which is going beyond learning,

01:18:26.349 --> 01:18:29.883
really questioning the other
systems that exist around us.

01:18:30.429 --> 01:18:32.569
Gayithri: Yeah, for sure.

01:18:32.739 --> 01:18:37.980
And what do you envision the role
of research and academia moving

01:18:38.000 --> 01:18:43.630
forward in education, moving forward
thinking about education in India?

01:18:44.120 --> 01:18:51.560
We mentioned and we discussed so many
things that need to change, but how do

01:18:51.560 --> 01:18:52.560
you see academia playing a role in it?

01:18:54.959 --> 01:18:54.979
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

01:18:55.360 --> 01:18:58.830
I think as I mentioned with the
need for academia to have a new

01:18:58.860 --> 01:19:04.179
community, both a community and
a collaborative responsibility.

01:19:04.559 --> 01:19:08.650
Illich would describe it
as, that needs to come on.

01:19:09.009 --> 01:19:13.350
I think our current situation
where there is a lot of

01:19:13.350 --> 01:19:15.670
censorship, there is a lot of fear.

01:19:16.940 --> 01:19:20.141
For example, over the past two days
we've been getting messages of how

01:19:20.141 --> 01:19:20.158
WhatsApp is going to be monitored and the
government is going to look at everything.

01:19:20.158 --> 01:19:20.171
That's really a way to silence
us, and I have said, okay,

01:19:20.171 --> 01:19:20.179
is this a way to silence us?

01:19:20.179 --> 01:19:20.185
And that is not outrageous.

01:19:20.185 --> 01:19:35.770
We are not all going to go off
WhatsApp, let us continue to do

01:19:35.770 --> 01:19:37.630
what we should do, we want to do.

01:19:38.470 --> 01:19:40.813
And say what we want to say.

01:19:40.880 --> 01:19:45.799
So I think, under especially
this situation of the growth

01:19:45.799 --> 01:19:50.509
of totalitarianism, of really
authoritarianism, academics have

01:19:52.209 --> 01:19:53.864
a huge role to play and we all,
each of us, as individuals and also

01:19:53.864 --> 01:19:56.125
members of our general disciplines
in academias, institutions, really

01:19:56.125 --> 01:20:01.135
have to be at the forefront.

01:20:01.135 --> 01:20:05.370
We have been too silent so far.

01:20:05.370 --> 01:20:08.976
We've been in the back seat too long.

01:20:08.976 --> 01:20:09.504
Gayithri: Stepped aside, yeah.

01:20:09.680 --> 01:20:10.130
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

01:20:10.610 --> 01:20:15.386
So I think courage, along with ideas and
strategies, collaborating with others.

01:20:15.386 --> 01:20:15.405
For example, supporting
the farmer's movements.

01:20:15.405 --> 01:20:24.750
Now, looking for alternatives to
the huge ecological mess we are in.

01:20:25.250 --> 01:20:25.920
Argue now, very importantly to have
a good public health system which

01:20:25.920 --> 01:20:25.985
is what we're seeing with the whole
COVID crisis is not a surprise.

01:20:25.985 --> 01:20:26.045
It's not a collapse of the system,
it's because those system existed,

01:20:26.045 --> 01:20:26.070
no public health system exists.

01:20:26.070 --> 01:20:26.085
The privatized systems.

01:20:26.090 --> 01:20:49.089
There are no decentralized
democratic health systems available.

01:20:49.650 --> 01:20:53.709
So I think these are issues
which are not disciplinary based.

01:20:53.979 --> 01:20:57.259
I cannot say, you know I'm not a
doctor, this is not an issue for me.

01:20:58.070 --> 01:21:00.360
These are issues about democracy,
about rights, about wellbeing.

01:21:00.360 --> 01:21:01.662
All of us as academics have to engage
and take stance, we can't hide under

01:21:01.662 --> 01:21:02.969
this, under all the threats that are
being deployed that work against us.

01:21:06.740 --> 01:21:24.130
So I think this is really the immediate
challenge that we academics have to face.

01:21:24.430 --> 01:21:24.740
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:21:26.770 --> 01:21:30.960
They do sound already very daunting,
but at the same time, yeah, it

01:21:30.960 --> 01:21:33.449
also kind of feels very urgent.

01:21:35.020 --> 01:21:40.150
Do you have any specific advice for
young scholars or researchers who

01:21:40.200 --> 01:21:44.620
are not yet there, but who would want
to be a part of this transformation

01:21:44.650 --> 01:21:46.719
in Indian context specifically?

01:21:48.570 --> 01:21:48.940
Dr. Vasavi: Yeah.

01:21:51.219 --> 01:21:54.110
I would say that they need to persist.

01:21:54.110 --> 01:21:58.725
I've seen people who just say
okay, academia is now so hollow

01:21:58.725 --> 01:21:59.970
and we just become activists.

01:22:01.580 --> 01:22:05.400
They don't seem to, at least there's no
recognition maybe because they're younger.

01:22:05.400 --> 01:22:08.960
You need good academia, good
knowledge systems to also

01:22:09.580 --> 01:22:11.337
influence or direct your actions.

01:22:11.337 --> 01:22:14.930
So you have to have your
eggs in both worlds.

01:22:14.940 --> 01:22:17.620
That is very important,
they need to do that.

01:22:18.120 --> 01:22:22.319
Or there are some people who actually
just abandon everything and go away.

01:22:22.319 --> 01:22:22.399
Literally going [inaudible] . That
is not something advisable.

01:22:22.399 --> 01:22:32.429
Secondly is for them to really be ready
to face the challenges at the moment,

01:22:32.440 --> 01:22:38.879
but to understand that leading an engaged
and meaningful life is much better

01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:40.719
than being trapped in certain kind of
[inaudible] of privilege that many,

01:22:40.719 --> 01:22:41.705
many upper class people have in India.

01:22:41.705 --> 01:22:53.720
And I know that there is great
satisfaction that lies after

01:22:54.420 --> 01:22:55.880
we meet these challenges.

01:23:00.090 --> 01:23:02.320
To persist, it's not an easy game.

01:23:02.740 --> 01:23:07.259
Persistence is required in
these kinds of situations.

01:23:07.849 --> 01:23:10.500
But they should also know that
there is a community out there.

01:23:10.530 --> 01:23:14.460
Nobody needs to feel alone and abandoned.

01:23:15.540 --> 01:23:17.809
There is a community, you
just need to reach out.

01:23:17.809 --> 01:23:22.360
Really there is a very, very
active civil society in India.

01:23:24.350 --> 01:23:26.529
Extremely engaged, committed, driven.

01:23:27.330 --> 01:23:32.950
You just need to reach out and
they will be there for you.

01:23:32.950 --> 01:23:34.222
And to know that it's only
a lonely journey if not.

01:23:34.222 --> 01:23:38.139
It will be hard at times, but most
very satisfying, meaningful, but

01:23:41.160 --> 01:23:41.339
people will be there with you.

01:23:41.639 --> 01:23:43.410
Gayithri: Thank you,
that was very reassuring.

01:23:45.360 --> 01:23:50.320
Anything else that we didn't
touch upon that you want to?

01:23:50.410 --> 01:23:52.120
Dr. Vasavi: Not that I can think of.

01:23:52.290 --> 01:23:52.483
No I think we've covered good ground.

01:23:52.483 --> 01:23:52.510
I can see my internet already
still going on the blink.