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Lalitha: my recent organization that I work for, for the past five years has been very exciting, very challenging and there's lot to learn and I'm called the academic coordinator if that's important to know and basically, with my team, I prepare content for or enrich content for both in Science and Social Studies from grade 4 to grade 10.

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So it's been very, very exciting and every day is very interesting for me, even during COVID times.

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So whatever I say is pre COVID because all my experiences will be pre COVID, right?

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Gayithri: Okay.

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Lalitha: For the past nine months, we have not been actively going out to students and working and so I want to say that first.

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Gayithri: Sure.

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So does it mean that you have actually not been engaging with the teachers even online or any like over phone?

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Lalitha: Yeah.

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Online, you definitely is.

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There have been lot of different groups of teachers I've been engaged with actually not necessarily the group I work with in the government schools.

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But these teachers are also from government schools but from different areas, different parts of India actually, because they wanted to hold, having webinar and this was a time they thought they would expose the teachers to different kinds of thinking.

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What [ILP] thought about teaching of Science and teaching of Social Science and what is the specialty about the content that we prepare.

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There's a lot of webinars that I have been speaking to.

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I mean through that, I've been speaking to a lot of teachers and received very good feedback, actually.

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Gayithri: Nice.

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And you mentioned ILP, would you want to expand a little on what that is?

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Lalitha: Oh, ILP is India Literacy Project.

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Though it's started by NRIs in the US, in California Bay Area but it has lot of trustees who are based in India and the project I work through ILP is called Multi Dimension Learning Space in a place called [Gubbi Taluk] . I live in Tumkur, which is a district in Karnataka and the district is divided into Taluks and so I work in a Taluk called Gubbi, which is some 20 kilometers away and it has 184 primary schools and 54 high schools.

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High schools is Grade 8 to Grade 10 and ILP has been working in many states actually.

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That is how I get to go to Jharkhand and I get to go to Hyderabad, so those are the places and we mostly interact with government school teachers.

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Gayithri: Okay.

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Okay.

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And I know you've told that you have actually been working in ILP for like over five years, but would you want to just expand on maybe how you got here?

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What has been your experience before being a part of ILP?

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Just briefly, I'm sure that we will get back to more details as we go along.

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Lalitha: Yeah.

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They are jumping to the other questions because I was just had jotted on points based on the, this one you had sent.

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So my journey...

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Okay, in fact, I can go on and on and on.

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It opens a Pandora's box when I talk about my experiences, but I try to be very, very brief.

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I started working only at the age of 30 in my neighborhood school, which was very, very progressive in nature because we had a couple of friends who had...

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One of my friend had opened the school.

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Her father was also a school teacher and so they wanted to start a school for their own granddaughter and it was just around the corner of my house and I joined the school and from there, it was no turning back at all.

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And I worked there for...

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What is so special about this school was it had no fixed curriculum and in fact it did not have any uniform for children and that was something very, very rare in India where everything is so colonial.

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What do you mean by colonial standards?

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Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

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Lalitha: The standard of the school depends on whether the child wears shoes, tie and everything, but I think the school broke everything some say 1987, 30 years ago, perhaps and it was remarkable that we as friends worked in the school and we [discussed] ourselves as learners and educators at the same time.

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It was a very, very good experience and I owe to that school, a lot of what I am today.

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And then I moved on to a corporate school where I worked with lot of resources and that is where I was a TVS group and this is where I was exposed to the theory of my practices, because still this time I did not know who Carl Rogers was.

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I did not know who was Maria Montessori.

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I did not even have a bachelor's of education degree.

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So all these names, but when we started reading, because the TVS offered a lot of in-house training and discussions every fortnight where we could reflect on our practice and see how we could better ourselves, the teaching, engaging children and our own growth as professional teachers.

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So that was a very big boost for me and the resources I meant, not only in the web, the one of library books and everything, but it also involved music, art and theater.

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That is how I...

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It was a very interesting experience of including all those in my own teaching practices and creating and expanding the content to fit into theater, music, art, and so on.

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I would also like to say when I was working in Maruthi Vidya Kendra, the first school which I said, it was...

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Though, it did not have any resources, I feel proud that I used to record the [BBC] documentaries and play them in my own home where I had a VCR and a DVD player.

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So these are all certain, I feel proud when I look back to see how I offered my home allowed me to include my [inaudible] students in my house to give this experience and all.

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In TVS I was for 10 years and in 2000, I think for the first time I took off and I went to Ladakh for six months along the LOC of India, Pakistan and it was a very remarkable experience of teaching to children of the Himalayan region who did not know what a monkey was.

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So the examples I had to give to them in the classes was very different.

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It had to be very local and now I can write pages and pages on that, on my experience actually, how can be...

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What it...

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Though I taught very small classes, till grade 3, but the experience was very, very enriching and from there I moved on to Nepal through VSO.

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We have Voluntary Service Overseas.

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So I went as an educator to a district.

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So there I had to more as a trainer, I went more as a trainer and a mentor to teachers there that is where my work starting...

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I was no more a classroom teacher, no.

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So, though I missed classes and so I had to interact with the teachers and observe the classes and see what best could be done.

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Nepal was going through a very bad phase in those days in 2008 to 2011, I was there.

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And what was interesting there was that is where I met teachers from across the world, Europe, from Africa and USA, and that I could blend with them and feel at par with all those teachers, even from England English speaking.

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So, the great myths that none of those people with these people are wonders they do very different things, was all broken for me actually.

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They looked up to me for ideas and this one, I feel very nice about myself and my own upbringing and my experiences as a teacher, classroom teacher in India.

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And after my Nepal thing, I went to Uganda for six months.

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So, Uganda was another real experience where I moved to a class where there were hundreds of children in grade 1 and grade 2 with half of them did not have any learning materials.

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Half of them were really literally naked with no slates, pencils, everything.

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So what could I do there?

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I mean, though, I was attached to the teacher's college where I was supposed to interact with the teachers of the primary schooling training center, PTC which is called, but still I visited schools to know what was the actual condition of the schools there and what did it mean to be a teacher in that setup?

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Actually one of the teacher was...

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The teachers...

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Yeah, they were very poorly paid and their houses were, they did not have electricity and one of the teachers told me that the education goals of the UNICEF that everybody had to be in school had done that great damage because suddenly all the children were in the class, in the schools with nothing, no materials or no support for the teachers.

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So, the teacher's morale was really, really, really very low.

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What could a teacher with 80 students, aged six and seven do in a class?

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I found the conditions of the teachers very, very poor, but there was a lot of sincerity in them, that is what I saw.

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But I mean, anybody can do very little in such setups, but so it was another eye opener and why I left that setup was because of the lot of corruption.

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I couldn't stand the corruption there and so I returned prematurely actually.

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Though I was to stay there for two years, I came back within seven months.

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And after coming back from there, then I joined ILP the organization where I'm working with and so now I'm just like, [Alchemy] says background.

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So I'm working in my own backyard now trying to find whatever searching for, or the reality in my own backyard.

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Gayithri: Okay.

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Fantastic.

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So that was a great, like it was really illuminating because I, myself didn't know those many details about your professional journey so thanks for sharing.

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So I'm glad that we are now back to ILP like, hopefully we will get it back into some of those pieces from what you just mentioned, but now coming back to what the work you do in ILP.

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So how do you describe a typical day in your work life?

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Like the community with which you work, the context in which you work, the kind of work that you do?

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14: 55

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Lalitha: Yeah.

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Let me give you some background of the government schools.

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So the public school says they're called in other countries.

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The government schools in India, a larger number, only yesterday there was some article which spoke about the number of schools are great, but the number of children attending government schools is less than 50%.

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That means the private education, there's a lot of children who go into private schools, but the number of government schools are more.

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60%..though the number of private schools are less, the number of children in private schools are more and so the public government schools in India, it's very different in different regions.

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So let me talk only about my own, Gubbi Taluk where I work, because it is very different in different areas.

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I cannot compare what government school in Delhi would be or corporation, because I know there's so much change there.

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A typical school will have classes for school from grade 1 to grade 7 and in some 8 and the children from grade 1 to grade 7 might be between 200 to 300.

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Believe it or not some schools have less than 50 children.

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So the number of children in each class is definitely manageable my role here is to visit schools.

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A typical day would be to visit two or three schools in day without any information and then since ILP provides them with the digital support that is with the computer and with the projector and the screen and everything and the content.

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So I just go there to visit, to see more than whether they're using the content.

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I just sit in the class, to see how the learning process takes place in the classes, identify the gaps that are there and give them some suggestions, hold some exemplar classes myself, or the teacher together, hold the classes together and see, not to intimidate the teachers and the students also that somebody else is working in.

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17: 18

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Lalitha: So the first few days it was like that, but now I visited those schools many times and so the teachers and the students are also familiar with me.

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So familiarization, it took a long time to get into such a thing not as an expert, I don't go as an expert at all.

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So this is my, and we have a young team of 11 graduates who also do the same thing.

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They visit the school every day.

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Each one has been assigned some 30 to 40 schools where they see follow up of the user for materials or the challenges that they have, the technical support they have to give, or if they have any and we also conduct science Melas[fairs] and social science Melas[fairs] and in those days, give them support to conduct those Melas and everything.

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So, every Saturday we meet in the office to take stock of what has happened and what hasn't happened and what should happen.

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So this is for a week, actually, so my day will be very different from each other.

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And one important thing is I always take the local transport.

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I don't zoom in a car.

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I walk, hike or hitch a ride.

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I do all sorts of things which a normal teachers would do.

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I have the school children at lunchtime, which is provided the midday meal that is provided by the government.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: And is this a conscious choice that you have made and oh, why so?

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Lalitha: Conscious choice of?

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Gayithri: Trying to take public transportation or having [crosstalk]

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.
 Lalitha: It is a choice

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Gayithri: And anything that's like backing the choice, or the rationale behind the choice?

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Lalitha: There's nothing big-

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Gayithri: Why would you do that?

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Like what made you make the choice?

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Maybe rational was to big a word or too scientific word.

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So.

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Lalitha: No, no, no.

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I want to feel, I just want to feel how a teacher travels and what kinds of buses do they travel and what are the real challenges they face when they travel, when they miss the bus and they have to take an auto, they have to pay more, all these things matter and they reach late and sometimes the bus don't come on time.

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So these are all of the real challenges of a school teacher and unfortunately though the government prescribes, they have to stay in the place where the school is.

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Most of them travel 30, 40, 50 kilometers, I mean from the nearest town.

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So these are all, I think this is very sensitive to be, this is a part of sensitivity.

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Since you're asking, I can say it is part, very sensitivity to be in the shoes of a teacher.

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Gayithri: So that is precisely what's driving you.

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Lalitha: Yeah.

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And it's very normal.

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I don't attach lot [inaudible] to that.

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Gayithri: Got it.

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No, but I think it's important.

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I'm glad that you shared.

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And did you tell all of these, like the schools that you visit are in Gubbi

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?
 Lalitha: Yeah, Gubbi has the radius of say all the schools are distributed in the radius of say 25 kilometers from Gubbi.

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Gayithri: Okay.

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Lalitha: 25 to 30 kilometers.

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So I've seen all the north end, south end, east end and the west end of Gubbi Taluk.

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Gayithri: Oh, okay.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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Lalitha: Yeah, the border, the whole district, the whole Taluk, I have covered.

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I think the radius is 50 kilometers actually not 25-30.

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Gayithri: Okay.

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Okay.

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Interesting.

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So now maybe we can get like more broader across like your profession, the one that you just gave me a glimpse of last time.

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So now maybe it's the time to delve with little deeper.

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I know you mentioned the different places that you have worked in the past but I don't think we got a chance to go a little deeper and what did each of these places offer for you professionally?

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What did you take away from working with those particular populations?

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So, if you would want to talk a little about that, I think that would be great.

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Lalitha: The first school, I mean, you want to talk about the schools or the later years when I went to Nepal and Uganda, do you want me to start even-

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Gayithri: Everything.

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Everything.

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Everything.

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Yeah.

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Like what place was it?

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What population did you work with?

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What did you get from like...

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Lalitha: Okay.

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Most of the time it is either the marginalized section of society or the middle group I can say.

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It's only when I worked in TVS school for 10 years.

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I think it was the elite of the town that came to the school.

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I mean, to say that most of the parents were professionals like the doctors or engineers and lecturers themselves like that.

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Not that there were no people from the rural side, they were, but still, since it was an expensive school.

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So to that extent, when I say the word elite, it doesn't mean if academic or anything.

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It just means it is an economically viable.

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The parents economically had that wherewithal they would put the children into TVS and it was supposed to be the one of the most expensive school those days.

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So otherwise I've always worked with children who came from marginalized section of society, and somewhere in the middle.

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Auto driver’s children and school teachers are not very rich, so school teachers or clerks or something like that.

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So, I have mostly that.

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Gayithri: Throughout?

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Like from the first school that you worked with and then?

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Lalitha: Yes, yes, yeah.

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Uganda, Nepal and now ILP is all that.

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A lot of children that now in India, the people who go to government schools are the poorest of the poor.

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I use the word marginalized section.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Any other forms of marginalization that you see across the population that you worked?

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Or like something very specific to some population, but not across?

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Lalitha: When you say marginalized in India, it means different things.

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It depends upon the caste, the religion they come from, the caste they come from and the economic background they come from.

00:22:52.575 --> 00:23:10.635
So it includes everything but the same thing with the Nepal also, and that is what I mean when I say it is marginalized societies, marginalized communities.

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That's what I mean, of course, in Nepal, the women schools, tribal schools, when you go to the hilly areas far away from the town.

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So this is where tribal will be children also that way.

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And in Gubbi areas and all, there are sections of societies, but there are no actually tribal schools.

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There's no large tribal population in these areas.

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They're all farming family or whatever, what to say there.

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Most of these children come from farming communities.

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So agriculture is important occupation, and most of them are agriculture laborers and very small landholders, less than an acre and they may have cattle, the milk production maybe poultry or having small...

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Poultry is not a big industry.

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Having some chickens and milk dairy could be a profession that is also...

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That is what the community, the geographical area work with.

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Very, very, very, very agricultural based.

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And that makes, what happens that has a bearing on children.

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Now, when I talk about ILPs, because during harvest time and during harvest of the Arecanut, most of the children disappear from the school because they give a, lend a hand to the parents in peeling that Areca, so these are all certain of challenges.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Interesting.

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Anything along like caste or gender or any other aspect that you would want to comment on?

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Lalitha: I wanted to...

00:24:58.205 --> 00:25:08.645
Children come to school and I don't see, what they say the boy child is preferred and the girl child...

00:25:09.875 --> 00:25:18.115
I don't understand that much of that because children come to school and because it is mandatory the children have to come to school and in some classes, there are more children, boys actually.

00:25:26.895 --> 00:25:36.025
[inaudible] please, I see if I start talking about Uganda, Nepal and all it is a lot more varied and a lot of stories to tell about that.

00:25:36.705 --> 00:25:43.445
So when you talk about gender relations, gender relations are there between the teachers and themselves.

00:25:43.445 --> 00:26:00.145
I mean, female teachers and male teachers, and the power of the male teachers exhibit is very, very clearly seen, is very clearly seen and the authority of the teacher over the students is also seen very clearly seen.

00:26:00.805 --> 00:26:14.395
And the school is the place where I think the child experiences, what power authority is.

00:26:14.395 --> 00:26:16.045
Of course, home is one place.

00:26:16.595 --> 00:26:25.365
Publicly in a public place who has the authority, the role of a teacher, the authority of a teacher, the authority of the headmaster is much more than...

00:26:25.525 --> 00:26:29.635
The authority of the official of the education department, who is visiting is much more.

00:26:29.675 --> 00:26:41.155
So the children get this hierarchy of this power that the teacher is the lowest in the order is what the child get exposed very early.

00:26:41.165 --> 00:26:44.325
Gayithri: Could you want to give an example, Akka?

00:26:45.855 --> 00:26:46.015
Lalitha: No.

00:26:46.015 --> 00:26:46.315
No.

00:26:49.465 --> 00:26:59.695
Because, see whenever a decision has to be taken and all this is spoken in front of children, there is nothing private and public in a school when you go and...

00:26:59.695 --> 00:26:59.697
...front of children.

00:26:59.697 --> 00:27:00.887
The children, there is nothing private and public in a school when you go enter.

00:27:00.887 --> 00:27:07.045
A departmental official, he can bang the headmaster right in front of the children, or you can bash the teacher right in front of the teacher.

00:27:07.645 --> 00:27:20.485
I mean, even a small comment that is made, the children get to know that there is a power hierarchy, however efficient or inefficient the official who is coming there could be.

00:27:20.495 --> 00:27:28.815
How does the headmaster, the teacher responds to them also brings out their integrity and sincerity.

00:27:29.085 --> 00:27:45.735
So the child gets exposed to the nuances of how she should get along in a public space by telling lies, by not telling lies, trying to be truthful is something very, very, this is the most important hidden curriculum of government schools, or even private schools.

00:27:49.075 --> 00:27:50.055
So where does it all come from?

00:27:50.055 --> 00:27:50.525
"I see.

00:27:51.175 --> 00:27:52.195
Oh, it's okay.

00:27:52.195 --> 00:27:52.535
It's okay.

00:27:52.535 --> 00:27:54.275
Oh, this is how I can answer.

00:27:54.285 --> 00:27:54.645
Is it?

00:27:54.725 --> 00:27:55.045
Okay."

00:27:55.425 --> 00:28:04.175
So I think this has a lot of bearing on how, why adults behave the way they behave as they grow with so much of preaching that is happening.

00:28:04.515 --> 00:28:09.295
But can you imagine this is what the child sees, how the headmaster, teachers and the official interacting.

00:28:09.555 --> 00:28:20.095
But when it comes to a classroom setting, then you see the teachers standing on a pedestal as a guru, and then preaching, preaching, preaching about morality and integrity and sincerity.

00:28:20.235 --> 00:28:24.285
What do you think a child will absorb or catch?

00:28:24.285 --> 00:28:24.293
Gayithri: Mm.

00:28:24.293 --> 00:28:24.416
Lalitha: So, what you say is very different and what you do is very different.

00:28:24.425 --> 00:28:24.595
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:28:41.235 --> 00:28:41.745
Interesting.

00:28:41.755 --> 00:28:45.495
And you see this across, is what you said, at least the schools that you-

00:28:45.495 --> 00:28:45.645
Lalitha: Across.

00:28:45.645 --> 00:28:46.505
Across schools.

00:28:48.535 --> 00:28:49.135
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:28:49.915 --> 00:28:56.515
And have you tried to talk like, is this like an aspect that you tried to attend to, or is it more like...

00:28:57.035 --> 00:28:57.345
Lalitha: No, no, no.

00:28:57.345 --> 00:28:58.815
I have always questioned this power.

00:28:58.815 --> 00:29:01.975
So let me quote an incident here.

00:29:04.505 --> 00:29:10.935
I was asked to speak as a teacher representative by an organization.

00:29:10.935 --> 00:29:18.040
I don't know what the organization name is, but the people who were present there was, I need not name them.

00:29:18.040 --> 00:29:18.090
The principal, science advisor to prime minister of India.

00:29:18.090 --> 00:29:18.150
And it was held in Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, actually.

00:29:18.150 --> 00:29:18.205
And the group that had come were people of Finland.

00:29:18.205 --> 00:29:18.442
Educators from Finland had come, and there was some meeting between the government and the Finnish educators, because it is thought that the Finish people have, the Scandinavian people and the Finnish people have the best education and they're the most egalitarian society.

00:29:18.442 --> 00:29:18.525
So they wanted to bring that curriculum and what that curriculum is about and all.

00:29:18.525 --> 00:29:18.574
So I was supposed to give them teachers perspective.

00:29:18.574 --> 00:29:18.635
So when my turn came, I had prepared a small presentation.

00:29:18.635 --> 00:30:07.135
And then what happened during that time was, the Principal scientific advisor was also sitting.

00:30:07.505 --> 00:30:10.305
In India, you know there's a hierarchy of power.

00:30:10.305 --> 00:30:16.285
And there was some screen which was trying to disturb.

00:30:16.675 --> 00:30:17.925
That screen could not be seen.

00:30:17.925 --> 00:30:30.665
So suddenly this principal secretary to the government of India, he gets up and he walks to the window and he closes, he push the curtain, right?

00:30:30.845 --> 00:30:32.325
I saw this, everybody saw this.

00:30:32.675 --> 00:30:35.285
But in my presentation, this is what I spoke about.

00:30:37.865 --> 00:30:42.265
Normally, in a school, what is a child is exposed?

00:30:43.335 --> 00:30:45.655
A child is exposed to listening to orders for any small thing.

00:30:46.545 --> 00:30:49.545
People order others, "Okay, pull that chair, get a chair."

00:30:49.915 --> 00:30:55.325
But here I have the principal scientific advisor himself getting up.

00:30:55.325 --> 00:31:03.625
He's the topmost guy in that group of 200, 300 people who have assembled, but he walks and he...

00:31:03.655 --> 00:31:19.565
And I quoted this and said, I wish everybody behaved like this in public to show that it is no great or no lesser value for the dignitary on the dais of the day to get up and move the screen which was disturbing somebody's presentation.

00:31:20.575 --> 00:31:31.465
And the same thing I spoke, I asked them, I said, so I question, "Okay, Finnish people, you are coming to India and your educators you're coming to India.

00:31:31.525 --> 00:31:37.645
But the fundamental question I want to ask is, what is a child in Finland and what is a child in India?"

00:31:41.045 --> 00:31:48.875
If you think by just bringing Finnish curriculum to your schools, you can build an egalitarian society, I think you have to think twice.

00:31:50.905 --> 00:31:51.105
What is a child?

00:31:51.105 --> 00:31:56.175
Believe it or not there was applause in the auditorium.

00:31:57.065 --> 00:32:14.605
And there was a Finnish educator who stood up and said, "Yes, this is one of the fundamental differences between Finnish and in India, where there are a lot of cultural differences between how, what is a child?

00:32:14.715 --> 00:32:15.155
How do we treat a child?

00:32:15.155 --> 00:32:15.785
How do we look at a child?

00:32:15.785 --> 00:32:19.865
Is it an individual or is it somebody who can do certain chores?"

00:32:19.895 --> 00:32:22.135
Yes, I love, I care, I do everything.

00:32:23.235 --> 00:32:25.555
But is it an equal partner in learning?

00:32:25.555 --> 00:32:30.125
Is it an equal partner in a family, or what is it?

00:32:32.445 --> 00:32:38.384
And there again, I said, and I also said this, "Please, out of context," in India, and I asked, most of them were Indian educators also, "What would you do?

00:32:38.384 --> 00:32:38.395
All your children attend."

00:32:38.395 --> 00:32:46.445
They were all people from the elite this one.

00:32:46.915 --> 00:32:58.455
So what would you feel if your schools, if your child's teacher asked your child to wash her box or plate after eating?

00:33:00.565 --> 00:33:03.075
Because this is what is happening in Indian schools.

00:33:05.775 --> 00:33:13.575
A child, that too a girl child, picks up the plates of the teachers because the midday meal is given and the men folk don't even have the...

00:33:14.415 --> 00:33:16.115
They are so shameless.

00:33:16.115 --> 00:33:21.935
They wash their hands in the plate itself and leave the plate for the child to pick up and wash.

00:33:21.935 --> 00:33:30.605
And if this is what India is, do you think bringing Finnish curriculum will bring equity?

00:33:34.075 --> 00:33:47.105
And when I raised this question in a local forum in Gubbi somewhere, there was a 45, 50 year old teacher standing up and said, "I don't want to listen to this madam, because what she's talking is against our culture."

00:33:53.435 --> 00:33:54.269
Gayithri: And when did this happen, Akka?

00:33:54.269 --> 00:34:02.535
Lalitha: This happened just before, I think last September, October.

00:34:04.845 --> 00:34:07.615
Gayithri: That is you presenting this-

00:34:07.615 --> 00:34:08.420
Lalitha: Conference happened in May, April, I think.

00:34:08.565 --> 00:34:09.185
May, April.

00:34:09.365 --> 00:34:23.145
But if I find the forum of teachers where I meet certain times where we are called to address forum of teachers in different setting, then I raise these issues also sometimes.

00:34:24.995 --> 00:34:29.357
But what happened there was, there was a BEO, education officer who was of that district.

00:34:29.535 --> 00:34:31.235
I had gone to a different taluk actually.

00:34:31.515 --> 00:34:33.635
And he said, "What this Madam missed?"

00:34:33.965 --> 00:34:35.725
And he tried to pacify them.

00:34:36.485 --> 00:34:43.685
Everybody became so agitated because they were made to reflect on their own practices which they thought was very cruel.

00:34:43.865 --> 00:34:55.155
Now, I exposed the thing that making a child wash the plate of a teacher, not a democratic way.

00:34:55.155 --> 00:34:57.485
It is not a democratic way of treating a child.

00:34:57.725 --> 00:34:57.755
Right?

00:34:57.765 --> 00:34:59.245
All they have to, when the children have a...

00:34:59.245 --> 00:35:04.645
When the school has water and when the school has a tap, all that, I expect the teacher also to go and wash their plate there.

00:35:06.405 --> 00:35:07.415
Why should a child do that?

00:35:10.895 --> 00:35:12.325
Don't understand.

00:35:13.315 --> 00:35:18.735
If this is respect, so this is what I begin to question.

00:35:19.155 --> 00:35:29.965
When you treat a child as somebody, are you asking the child to wash the plate because you cannot do it, or this is obedience?

00:35:30.045 --> 00:35:32.213
I'm sorry, I don't want to take it.

00:35:32.213 --> 00:35:42.335
It is not obedience to wash somebody's plate unless there is something wrong or the teacher cannot do it for some reason or anything.

00:35:43.755 --> 00:35:48.701
I will as well understand those situations when we ask certain children to do certain small, "Please, can you get.

00:35:48.975 --> 00:35:49.805
Please, can you do this plate?"

00:35:50.135 --> 00:35:57.125
But here it is all done in a way as if the authority, the power of the teacher is accepted.

00:35:57.535 --> 00:35:58.595
And the children have to wash the plates of the teachers.

00:36:02.265 --> 00:36:02.515
Why?

00:36:06.555 --> 00:36:07.005
Gayithri: Very [crosstalk]

00:36:07.005 --> 00:36:11.515
.
 Lalitha: Because washing somebody else's plate has a very derogatory thing in India.

00:36:11.655 --> 00:36:18.145
When you go to restaurants, we know how we treat those people who pick up the plates after we have eaten them.

00:36:19.575 --> 00:36:24.498
And no teacher there who is working there would want her daughter to play that role anywhere.

00:36:24.498 --> 00:36:24.845
Isn't it?

00:36:27.445 --> 00:36:30.270
Gayithri: And you said it's mostly the girls in the class who actually take this up.

00:36:30.270 --> 00:36:36.490
Lalitha: It's only the girls in the class.

00:36:36.490 --> 00:36:39.455
Gayithri: And are there like certain girls, or is it like more broadly like any girl?

00:36:39.455 --> 00:36:39.456
Lalitha: Yeah.

00:36:39.456 --> 00:36:39.457
Yeah.

00:36:39.457 --> 00:36:47.965
Sometimes I think it could be certain girls only, who do this job.

00:36:48.745 --> 00:36:55.575
So you can understand how, why maintaining toilets and all in Indian schools is so very tough because nobody likes to do that job.

00:36:59.415 --> 00:36:59.795
Gayithri: Hmm.

00:37:02.305 --> 00:37:04.470
I hope that kids are not dragged into that also.

00:37:04.470 --> 00:37:08.095
Lalitha: No, there are no toilets.

00:37:08.305 --> 00:37:13.090
I don't know how they're kept clean now that there's [inaudible] and every school has toilets and everything.

00:37:13.090 --> 00:37:14.645
I don't know how that is [inaudible]

00:37:14.935 --> 00:37:15.565
.
 Gayithri: Managed.

00:37:15.895 --> 00:37:18.692
Lalitha: See, the point is, as a contrast I will give in Uganda what happened.

00:37:18.692 --> 00:37:28.265
When I went to Uganda, when I went on school supervising, the supervisor who came with me was the vice principal of the PTC or the teacher's training college.

00:37:28.265 --> 00:37:29.175
You know what?

00:37:29.175 --> 00:37:36.035
When he inspected everything, he also went into the toilet to inspect, which I think no Indian official will do, unless it is necessary.

00:37:36.705 --> 00:37:37.176
Go to the toilet and inspect the toilet.

00:37:37.176 --> 00:37:51.355
And there, what happens, there is a culture of, it's still an open toilet and since Ugandan schools have huge ground and they grow a lot of vegetables, the dried this one is used as manure in the schools.

00:37:51.775 --> 00:37:52.255
Gayithri: Mm.

00:37:52.805 --> 00:37:54.115
Lalitha: So you see the...

00:37:54.175 --> 00:38:01.035
And it was all very normal for the vice principal to go and see it.

00:38:01.235 --> 00:38:10.205
And it's very normal for children to pick up that dung, human dung and put it aside for drying so that it could be used as manure.

00:38:10.545 --> 00:38:17.810
So how you do things, inclusively you do things is very, very important.

00:38:17.810 --> 00:38:21.865
Gayithri: And what those actions mean maybe in that context matters a lot.

00:38:21.865 --> 00:38:22.095
Lalitha: Yes.

00:38:22.545 --> 00:38:23.935
Or what is so...

00:38:26.315 --> 00:38:27.995
I had to mend my ways.

00:38:28.375 --> 00:38:28.725
Okay.

00:38:28.755 --> 00:38:33.555
I should also now follow the vice principal into the toilet to see how it is maintained.

00:38:33.555 --> 00:38:50.535
See, this may all look very trivial, but this is how the power, what jobs are more important, what tasks are more important?

00:38:50.825 --> 00:38:58.535
Signing a register or signing the letter of a headmaster is very important or should you also see to that his premise is very clean and neat?

00:39:01.095 --> 00:39:02.015
Gayithri: Mm.

00:39:03.205 --> 00:39:03.495
Yeah.

00:39:05.755 --> 00:39:13.555
Lalitha: So lots, these ideas get built in the child's mind in India very easily.

00:39:15.025 --> 00:39:17.825
So you talk about dignity of labor.

00:39:17.835 --> 00:39:21.595
You may lecture, they may get a hundred out of hundred marks, no problem.

00:39:21.595 --> 00:39:28.775
The toppers, but do they really mean respect or dignity of all the kinds of jobs?

00:39:29.715 --> 00:39:30.235
I'm sorry.

00:39:32.795 --> 00:39:36.165
Gayithri: Because what they're getting to see is what they mostly learn from.

00:39:37.045 --> 00:39:37.345
Lalitha: Yes.

00:39:39.995 --> 00:39:40.315
Gayithri: Sure.

00:39:42.435 --> 00:39:45.885
So this is very interesting.

00:39:46.525 --> 00:39:51.925
And I know these are also, it's hard to categorize them as easy or tricky.

00:39:52.015 --> 00:39:55.405
Oh, this is easy to do in this context, or this is tricky to do.

00:39:56.005 --> 00:40:15.645
But given we are trying to get a broader understanding of the work that you do, what would you consider as some of easy aspects or natural or intuitive aspects of your work as your, especially in your recent work with the government school teachers?

00:40:15.705 --> 00:40:16.125
41: 20

00:40:16.445 --> 00:40:16.735
Lalitha: Yeah.

00:40:17.205 --> 00:40:28.905
What is easy is, perhaps because of my experience and, I've learned a lot, of course, every experience has taught a lot of things.

00:40:28.905 --> 00:40:45.185
So it is very easy for me to get into your classroom and see what's happening or what exactly to, it's not exactly rating the teacher or the learning program, learning process that is happening, but intuitively I can just understand what's happening.

00:40:45.655 --> 00:40:47.240
And how is the class?

00:40:47.555 --> 00:40:56.045
How is the school as a whole, is there a team work here or is there lot of hierarchy, are the children really...

00:40:56.965 --> 00:40:58.395
Most children are happy to come to school.

00:40:58.395 --> 00:40:59.805
It's not that they're sad or anything.

00:41:00.135 --> 00:41:12.385
But do they really look forward to the classes of the teachers and everything is something very, I can easily get through and this, so I become, I have a lot of intuition.

00:41:13.045 --> 00:41:28.461
Intuitively I get to know how the school as a whole is doing in the setup that it is because I can see through teachers when they talk, because my experience has taught a lot.

00:41:28.545 --> 00:41:33.575
Some people may talk a lot, but there is nothing to do, but there are some teachers who are very quiet, but there are a lot of things happening.

00:41:33.825 --> 00:41:41.895
So the one or two poking, simple, yeah, that is the most easiest thing for me.

00:41:42.605 --> 00:41:45.005
Finding the gaps is very, there are lot of gaps.

00:41:45.445 --> 00:41:52.595
So I don't go looking for gaps, but why do these gaps exist?

00:41:53.765 --> 00:42:04.165
And unfortunately, there are certain challenges, the schools face, which I cannot fill in it, actually.

00:42:04.365 --> 00:42:16.865
As I told, the absentee of children during certain periods of local festivals and celebrations, they're out, and the follow-up becomes very difficult.

00:42:17.915 --> 00:42:24.927
And what is more challenging is, in fact, I have not recorded this actually, but this would be a very interesting thing to do.

00:42:24.935 --> 00:42:46.635
But my only guess is Indian schools, my Gubbi schools, I think out of the 200 or 220 working days, for schools, 220 working days, I think hardly there will be 100 days in which all the teachers will be present and all the students will be present.

00:42:49.155 --> 00:42:49.308
Only 100 days.

00:42:49.365 --> 00:42:52.155
Gayithri: What do you think the rest of the days are going for?

00:42:53.785 --> 00:42:53.885
Lalitha: No.

00:42:53.885 --> 00:42:57.025
No, because each teacher has a lot of casual leave.

00:42:57.025 --> 00:42:59.875
So if you have four teachers, so 60 days are gone.

00:42:59.935 --> 00:43:00.925
At least one teacher will be gone, right?

00:43:03.345 --> 00:43:04.385
Gayithri: Mm.

00:43:06.285 --> 00:43:10.275
Lalitha: And take away festivals and everything, and the child will be lost for so many days.

00:43:11.355 --> 00:43:12.935
Child itself will be absent for so many days.

00:43:13.185 --> 00:43:19.755
So 100 full, the school is full for only 100 days in a year.

00:43:19.755 --> 00:43:23.435
These schools are made for 100 days or 220 days?

00:43:24.335 --> 00:43:24.945
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:43:27.955 --> 00:43:36.715
Lalitha: And I mean, there's a lot of loss of learning time in schools.

00:43:41.145 --> 00:43:41.865
Gayithri: What do you think?

00:43:41.865 --> 00:43:42.685
What do you see?

00:43:42.725 --> 00:43:48.375
I know you mentioned that it's absenteeism either from the teacher's end or from the student.

00:43:49.325 --> 00:43:50.299
Lalitha: Even within the 100 days-

00:43:50.299 --> 00:43:51.005
Gayithri: Even within the 100 days.

00:43:51.005 --> 00:43:54.235
Lalitha: There's a lot of loss of learning time.

00:43:56.775 --> 00:43:59.775
Gayithri: What do you see as some of the reasons for that?

00:44:01.525 --> 00:44:02.765
Lalitha: They all look very legitimate.

00:44:02.765 --> 00:44:18.805
They all look very legitimate, but to me who has worked in a private school where every teacher is there in class and it goes, there is accountability for every class that you attend to, here, they need not be.

00:44:19.745 --> 00:44:21.555
They're presenting the school, that is enough.

00:44:22.715 --> 00:44:24.135
They're coming to school, that is enough.

00:44:24.815 --> 00:44:28.315
That they're engaging the children the whole time is not guaranteed.

00:44:28.425 --> 00:44:31.755
Is not part of their accountability.

00:44:32.295 --> 00:44:33.215
Gayithri: Mm.

00:44:33.725 --> 00:44:41.835
Lalitha: Most important issue that anybody has to grapple when they come to work in such setup.

00:44:45.795 --> 00:44:46.435
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:44:46.925 --> 00:44:47.535
Any other-

00:44:48.975 --> 00:44:58.645
Lalitha: When ASER brings in report every year saying that fifth standard cannot read second standard book or a fifth standard child cannot add or subtract, I'm not surprised.

00:45:00.445 --> 00:45:00.545
Gayithri: Hmm.

00:45:06.915 --> 00:45:07.665
Hmm.

00:45:07.665 --> 00:45:14.755
Lalitha: There is so much of loss, and there are certain activity, which is not very, which are highly ritualistic.

00:45:16.915 --> 00:45:18.325
Gayithri: Would you want to mention an example?

00:45:18.655 --> 00:45:19.865
Lalitha: Colonial way of school.

00:45:20.225 --> 00:45:21.895
Coming in school, standing in line.

00:45:21.905 --> 00:45:21.935
Okay.

00:45:23.145 --> 00:45:24.405
Prayer and everything fine.

00:45:24.405 --> 00:45:25.085
And reading.

00:45:26.225 --> 00:45:30.045
There is no follow-up of any activity.

00:45:30.045 --> 00:45:31.215
There is no follow-up.

00:45:31.815 --> 00:45:33.625
What is the children's day supposed to be?

00:45:35.705 --> 00:45:36.215
Okay.

00:45:37.705 --> 00:45:43.125
There are so many great men that have come and gone in India and it increases by time.

00:45:43.605 --> 00:45:43.675
Right?

00:45:43.675 --> 00:45:45.165
And those jayanthis are celebrated.

00:45:45.185 --> 00:45:45.995
How are they celebrated?

00:45:46.005 --> 00:45:46.925
Half a day goes.

00:45:47.495 --> 00:45:50.625
It is a working day, but half a day you have to celebrate that.

00:45:50.915 --> 00:45:56.175
So they all sit and headmaster or some teachers talk and talk and talk and talk and talk about that person.

00:45:58.145 --> 00:46:08.575
What does it mean?

00:46:13.485 --> 00:46:14.205
Gayithri: Hmm.

00:46:14.205 --> 00:46:14.255
And you-

00:46:14.255 --> 00:46:14.615
Lalitha: There's a lot of ritualistic.

00:46:14.615 --> 00:46:15.825
Everything is ritual.

00:46:20.455 --> 00:46:22.115
Gayithri: And you were also calling this colonial.

00:46:23.025 --> 00:46:25.675
Would you want to expand a little on that akka?

00:46:26.095 --> 00:46:26.845
Like the...

00:46:29.665 --> 00:46:35.375
Lalitha: No, somewhere I think, at least people who are living today.

00:46:35.445 --> 00:46:35.955
I don't know.

00:46:36.355 --> 00:46:53.500
See, when you talked about colonial, in the days when, say go back 50, 70 years ago, my father himself was a teacher and he used to talk about his teachers in the same private, I mean, the Gubbi taluk I'm talking about, and how good those teachers were.

00:46:53.665 --> 00:46:56.441
They were great scholars and children from all sections of society came.

00:46:56.441 --> 00:47:02.185
It's not that, maybe the girls were very little, or I don't know whether he had any girls in his class.

00:47:02.635 --> 00:47:13.621
I don't recall that, but they were highly motivated.

00:47:14.355 --> 00:47:27.649
But somehow what happened was, later, this colonial practice of what do you mean by being a sarkari worker, government worker meant that you have to be in time and you have to be present, that is all.

00:47:27.649 --> 00:47:32.695
What you do after you come, there is no accountability.

00:47:32.695 --> 00:47:41.985
How did this erosion of asking accountability from people vanished or get reduced over a period of time is amazing.

00:47:50.135 --> 00:47:50.595
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:47:50.805 --> 00:47:53.390
Lalitha: And this is true of, I think even government offices also.

00:47:53.390 --> 00:47:55.992
Though I may not have any experiences, though.

00:47:55.992 --> 00:47:57.944
When I visit, I know that.

00:47:57.944 --> 00:48:01.635
But this may be true of why government...

00:48:04.305 --> 00:48:24.265
Then why do even a parent in a rural area with little affordability send a child to a private school where he thinks the child will learn more and he can have some aspiration to go for further studies.

00:48:24.265 --> 00:48:28.175
Because I think the teacher, more than, they see a lot of accountability in those schools.

00:48:28.175 --> 00:48:39.575
Whatever may be that, but that is still, but the sense of accountability that they being there, that they have to be there, they come there and they may not have any training.

00:48:39.585 --> 00:48:42.845
Private schools, of course, not all private schools.

00:48:43.865 --> 00:48:49.285
Even private school children fair very poorly in, specially from rural areas.

00:48:49.645 --> 00:49:01.575
But still they see that as, it's not only English medium, they also see the teachers there work hard and they make the children accountable is what.

00:49:01.575 --> 00:49:04.565
They themselves are accountable, a little more accountable than the teachers at the government schools and make the children accountable.

00:49:06.295 --> 00:49:06.825
Gayithri: Hmm.

00:49:07.155 --> 00:49:08.475
That's what you see is happening.

00:49:09.515 --> 00:49:19.135
Lalitha: That is one of the, that is also why parents move the children from government schools to private schools.

00:49:19.135 --> 00:49:20.015
Gayithri: Got it.

00:49:20.015 --> 00:49:21.335
Lalitha: In rural setup.

00:49:21.335 --> 00:49:23.095
Here it's all private.

00:49:23.095 --> 00:49:26.025
So there is no question about.

00:49:28.035 --> 00:49:28.125
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:49:28.695 --> 00:49:34.115
So according to you, what would be one most important aspect of your work?

00:49:34.735 --> 00:49:41.171
What are you specifically looking at accomplishing in your work as you're interacting with degree teachers?

00:49:41.225 --> 00:49:45.645
I'm sorry.

00:49:49.615 --> 00:49:50.465
Lalitha: Hmm.

00:49:51.725 --> 00:49:56.025
I started as a teacher, even without having any degrees or anything.

00:49:56.275 --> 00:49:56.505
Right.

00:49:58.725 --> 00:50:00.225
I think it is possible.

00:50:01.185 --> 00:50:03.088
And not all my children score 90 out of 90.

00:50:03.088 --> 00:50:03.279
I never was in 90, 90 or a 100 over 90 student at all.

00:50:03.279 --> 00:50:37.015
And so, my own experience teaches me that it is possible for a person who enters the teaching profession as a facilitator or a teacher can definitely build up their, her or his capacities to be a learner along with the children.

00:50:38.645 --> 00:50:41.665
And that is what I want to see.

00:50:46.105 --> 00:50:50.255
And that is what I want the people to enjoy in this profession.

00:50:50.595 --> 00:50:52.955
This is what the profession is meant for.

00:50:52.955 --> 00:50:56.785
To be a learner always along with your students.

00:50:56.785 --> 00:50:58.586
And you need not be a master of the content at all, especially in government schools and all.

00:50:58.586 --> 00:51:07.115
It's only to bring in hope, sense of equity, sense of sensitivity.

00:51:07.185 --> 00:51:20.235
However, wretched the world outside, the background the child may come from, but still, I think we have a lot of responsibility to bring in hope to the child that things could become better.

00:51:20.235 --> 00:51:22.915
And for that we have to strive is very, very important.

00:51:24.365 --> 00:51:26.225
Nobody will offer it on a platter.

00:51:26.505 --> 00:51:29.465
Yeah, you may get something on a platter, but that will not be very legal also.

00:51:29.465 --> 00:51:33.235
Gayithri: Got it.

00:51:34.955 --> 00:51:35.245
Sure.

00:51:36.095 --> 00:51:42.555
Lalitha: You cannot transfer the consequences of your actions to others.

00:51:42.565 --> 00:51:49.285
Good or bad, it is you who is responsible for that.

00:51:50.615 --> 00:51:55.055
There is nothing called as a perfect teacher at all.

00:51:55.995 --> 00:52:09.405
A lot of instance where my students taught me, my colleagues picked upon me to brush my own emotional or sensitivity, insensitivity certain times.

00:52:10.735 --> 00:52:14.285
Polished me from, for what I am today and still I'm getting polished.

00:52:14.955 --> 00:52:14.975
Gayithri: Yeah,

00:52:19.095 --> 00:52:21.955
Lalitha: No, it is hard.

00:52:22.685 --> 00:52:30.615
That hard work brings a lot of satisfaction, contentment that what Indian culture talks about.

00:52:30.615 --> 00:52:46.464
I think if we, what India boasts now of its grand civilization and especially, I don't want use the word guru, but still I'm using the word guru, but I'm very sorry.

00:52:46.464 --> 00:52:47.385
It is the most important.

00:52:47.725 --> 00:52:49.995
It is a misnomer these days.

00:52:50.895 --> 00:52:59.011
And it is sad that many in the teaching profession do not stand up to it at all, but still want to enjoy all the privileges just because they're a teacher.

00:52:59.011 --> 00:52:59.118
The whole, they've got the job and very sorry to see.

00:52:59.118 --> 00:52:59.395
The greatest dichotomy and the tragedy that's happening in India.

00:53:05.005 --> 00:53:24.535
Gayithri: So if you were to pick one or two things that you wish or hope it would change, as you work in this direction, what would they be?

00:53:31.125 --> 00:53:31.745
Lalitha: Change?

00:53:31.835 --> 00:53:33.575
What are the changes that I would like to see?

00:53:33.575 --> 00:53:34.505
Or what change I can...

00:53:34.505 --> 00:53:37.530
Yeah.

00:53:40.555 --> 00:53:40.915
Yeah.

00:53:41.025 --> 00:53:43.135
I saw this question somewhere.

00:53:43.135 --> 00:53:47.225
What change I would like to see?

00:53:47.225 --> 00:53:47.708
Gayithri: Uh-huh [affirmative].

00:53:47.708 --> 00:53:48.433
Lalitha: No, just accountability.

00:53:48.433 --> 00:53:49.158
That is all.

00:53:49.158 --> 00:53:52.217
The teachers have to be more reflective and accountable.

00:53:52.217 --> 00:53:54.742
That is all.

00:53:54.742 --> 00:54:08.012
To see that her profession, what she thinks of integrity and sincerity in her everyday life has to be reflected in her professional life.

00:54:08.012 --> 00:54:17.555
What she thinks of devotion to God or anything, because, I think I was talking to you about the other day, the paapa[sin] and punya[virtue].

00:54:17.555 --> 00:54:32.995
So I really want to say that when, why don't people in India, when they talk about committing a sin, yeah, a teacher may say, "No, I come on time.

00:54:33.765 --> 00:54:35.515
I don't take leave at all.

00:54:38.175 --> 00:54:38.835
I'm always in school."

00:54:41.395 --> 00:54:42.660
But what do you do in school is very, very important.

00:54:42.660 --> 00:54:42.837
So, that is punya.

00:54:42.837 --> 00:54:44.175
What you do, the work that you do.

00:54:47.495 --> 00:54:50.105
Why don't you believe that the work you do leads to salvation?

00:54:50.105 --> 00:54:51.131
Gayithri: Hmm.

00:54:51.131 --> 00:54:56.845
Lalitha: It is not just being ritualistic, right?

00:54:57.175 --> 00:54:59.931
Coming to school in time and being there.

00:54:59.931 --> 00:54:59.957
Right.

00:54:59.957 --> 00:55:00.635
Coming to school in time and being there in the class.

00:55:00.665 --> 00:55:01.665
That is ritualism.

00:55:03.995 --> 00:55:08.980
Beyond that, something that is asked for, how do you engage the children?

00:55:09.195 --> 00:55:16.435
What is your prime job or work that you're supposed to do as a teacher?

00:55:16.435 --> 00:55:18.015
It is not coming in time.

00:55:18.175 --> 00:55:19.395
You need not come in time.

00:55:19.425 --> 00:55:21.285
You may not be present in the school everyday.

00:55:21.285 --> 00:55:25.325
But the day you are present, what is it that you are doing is very important.

00:55:27.705 --> 00:55:33.375
Every day lost, something, so many children lose.

00:55:35.005 --> 00:55:42.005
It's a loss to the child, to the parent, to the community, to the country and to the world at large.

00:55:42.005 --> 00:55:43.588
Do you see that consequences of your action and inaction?

00:55:43.588 --> 00:55:43.843
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

00:55:43.843 --> 00:55:53.545
Lalitha: What you do has a lot of bearing.

00:55:53.545 --> 00:56:04.275
What we do and we don't do has a lot of bearing.

00:56:05.145 --> 00:56:05.705
Individually, yes.

00:56:08.735 --> 00:56:10.965
Gayithri: Yeah, for sure.

00:56:12.445 --> 00:56:25.835
Maybe now we can think more across your work maybe even going back to the time you made some of these choices, to be a teacher or to actually work with teachers.

00:56:27.155 --> 00:56:29.975
What motivated you to pick this line of work?

00:56:32.395 --> 00:56:37.145
Maybe to be a teacher and particularly to work with marginalized communities?

00:56:42.295 --> 00:56:47.725
Lalitha: I became a teacher just by choice because I tried to be...

00:56:50.265 --> 00:56:54.990
I joined as a clerk in the post office in the beginning because I thought I had to earn money after my graduation.

00:56:54.990 --> 00:56:55.069
But, I did not fit it to the job at all.

00:56:55.069 --> 00:56:55.105
So, I left a job.

00:56:55.105 --> 00:56:55.140
It was something very boring.

00:56:55.140 --> 00:56:55.205
I always thought I was a people oriented person.

00:56:55.205 --> 00:57:16.075
So, at the age of 30, when somebody in the neighborhood asked me, "Can you come and join the school?"

00:57:16.125 --> 00:57:16.505
I joined.

00:57:18.165 --> 00:57:24.285
I discovered myself that I could take the risk of being learner.

00:57:24.285 --> 00:57:26.009
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

00:57:26.009 --> 00:57:26.048
Lalitha: I think one of the most important things...

00:57:26.048 --> 00:57:26.201
Because, when you stand as an adult, as a teacher before the students, before the young minds, I think it requires a lot of courage, you have to be true to yourself.

00:57:26.201 --> 00:57:26.220
If you are already...

00:57:26.225 --> 00:57:43.805
Yeah, all of us...

00:57:48.025 --> 00:57:49.525
I started being an authoritarian in itself.

00:57:49.705 --> 00:57:53.015
I even carried a stick also, in the classroom.

00:57:53.345 --> 00:57:54.195
I began...

00:57:56.745 --> 00:58:05.605
Until one day, one of my students asked me this question, "No teacher, you were very rude to that boy yesterday."

00:58:05.605 --> 00:58:10.025
That was the last time when I had the stick in my hand.

00:58:10.365 --> 00:58:24.555
Even from the first stage of my career, I gave this leverage to children to talk to me very freely, question me, question my actions.

00:58:24.565 --> 00:58:31.215
That, I learned very quickly in my profession.

00:58:31.615 --> 00:58:34.275
So, I was not at all afraid of being exposed at all.

00:58:35.045 --> 00:58:40.655
Exposed of my emotions, of my bitterness, of my anger.

00:58:42.375 --> 00:58:43.005
And you know what?

00:58:43.015 --> 00:58:44.365
All this I found...

00:58:44.975 --> 00:58:55.075
That is what a person has to be in the humanist theory of Paulo Freire when he says that a teacher need not wear any mask, when he stands before a group of children.

00:58:55.075 --> 00:58:58.135
He has to be very authentic.

00:58:58.435 --> 00:59:02.205
I wanted to show children that I was as human as they were.

00:59:06.025 --> 00:59:06.625
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

00:59:08.065 --> 00:59:17.425
Lalitha: This got ingrained in me and there was no turning back at all.

00:59:18.535 --> 00:59:32.125
When I said I went to VSO and all these experiences, and when some of my English friends said, "How can you speak such good English, Lalitha?

00:59:34.025 --> 00:59:36.505
I took that question as a very silly question actually.

00:59:40.335 --> 00:59:41.925
Because, their world view was so small.

00:59:42.175 --> 00:59:42.335
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:59:42.335 --> 00:59:50.687
It is a good thing that we were colonized.

00:59:51.615 --> 01:00:00.095
Lalitha: So, all these experiences of, the way they looked at me, the way they, I responded to them, also...

01:00:01.105 --> 01:00:03.875
Oh yeah, my egalitarian principles became more and more...

01:00:04.095 --> 01:00:12.845
When I went to Nepal actually, when I worked with European teachers, especially both Dutch and English, they were very close to me actually.

01:00:12.845 --> 01:00:22.755
The way they looked at Nepali society, when I was working along with them, how they looked at certain things and they said, "Okay, how come I did not see this at all?"

01:00:25.065 --> 01:00:32.815
How do you look at things as different, but not being judgemental, was something which I learned, when I went to Ladakh for the first time.

01:00:36.505 --> 01:00:45.815
Not that it was not there, but the point is, in your own setup, when you're with your own group of people, with the same conditioning, there is always this ego clash that happens.

01:00:45.815 --> 01:00:49.595
That is ego to say, you don't want to give up amongst your own people.

01:00:50.565 --> 01:01:08.515
But I think, that was very interesting and in Nepal, there was a headmaster who scolded his female staff as buffaloes in front of me one day.

01:01:09.005 --> 01:01:15.085
I just walked out of the office room that day.

01:01:16.015 --> 01:01:22.335
There was this student one day, he knocked at my door, and he said, "Madam, I'm here."

01:01:22.835 --> 01:01:23.795
"Oh, come Siddharth.

01:01:24.055 --> 01:01:25.835
It's nice to see you after so many years."

01:01:26.295 --> 01:01:28.035
Gayithri: Where was this, akka?

01:01:28.035 --> 01:01:30.160
Lalitha: In my home, actually.

01:01:30.405 --> 01:01:41.885
The boy says, "You scolded me when I was in class seven and eight saying that I was not good for anything that I wouldn't be graduate, that I won't study, that I won't reach anywhere.

01:01:42.175 --> 01:01:45.625
Here I am standing before you as an engineer."

01:01:45.625 --> 01:01:47.825
And I said, "Okay Siddharth, congratulations.

01:01:49.135 --> 01:01:50.635
You have become an engineer, but I have not gained anything out of it.

01:01:50.635 --> 01:01:59.140
I personally did not gain anything out of it, you became an engineer.

01:01:59.285 --> 01:02:01.155
But you have gained something, becoming an engineer.

01:02:01.165 --> 01:02:01.465
Right?

01:02:03.825 --> 01:02:04.955
So, what I said that day?

01:02:04.955 --> 01:02:09.335
That you have to be accountable for your everyday work, is important, isn't it?

01:02:11.555 --> 01:02:15.925
You may have felt bitter this why Lalitha akka is demanding so much hard work.

01:02:16.025 --> 01:02:17.335
But, don't you enjoy your hard work.

01:02:17.365 --> 01:02:19.095
Did you not enjoy engineering studies?"

01:02:21.895 --> 01:02:27.135
He still comes to my house.

01:02:29.645 --> 01:02:29.975
Gayithri: Sure.

01:02:30.895 --> 01:02:45.015
I think one question that I wanted to ask is what actually motivated you to go and work in even Ladakh or Nepal or Uganda, or even like choosing to work with

01:02:46.385 --> 01:02:46.755
...
 Lalitha: Yes.

01:02:47.095 --> 01:02:49.451
One thing is the privilege at home because I have a twin sister.

01:02:49.675 --> 01:02:50.885
So, I can just leave home and go.

01:02:51.535 --> 01:02:55.095
I have the privilege because we had my father.

01:02:55.095 --> 01:02:57.705
And so, I joined school only after my mother's death.

01:02:57.705 --> 01:03:00.535
I had my father, who was equally busy.

01:03:00.975 --> 01:03:01.905
He was also a teacher till the age of 80.

01:03:01.905 --> 01:03:03.945
And so, it's not that you have to take care of something.

01:03:03.945 --> 01:03:04.565
He knew how to take care.

01:03:04.565 --> 01:03:07.335
And he was physically fit, till he died, he passed away quite recently.

01:03:07.705 --> 01:03:11.585
So, there was no pressure on me to stay home.

01:03:12.195 --> 01:03:17.235
And as I became more and more involved in learning, I always felt suffocated.

01:03:17.255 --> 01:03:21.805
That's why I moved from Maruti, my first school to TVS where I wanted to expand my horizon.

01:03:21.855 --> 01:03:31.405
When I thought that I was falling into a comfort zone where I was finding that there was no team that was there with me to get along.

01:03:31.755 --> 01:03:37.145
That I was seen as an expert there, I leave the space and go.

01:03:37.145 --> 01:03:39.205
That is how I went to TVS.

01:03:39.205 --> 01:03:47.885
And there again, in TVS again, very soon, within five years, it became very suffocating for me with all the resources and everything.

01:03:47.965 --> 01:03:53.065
Still, I said, "There is something that I want to go beyond."

01:03:53.485 --> 01:03:54.745
That is when I went to Ladakh.

01:03:54.775 --> 01:04:10.025
And then after coming back, I again went back to TVS and again, I went to Nepal to see what I would be in places away from my comfort zone of my home.

01:04:10.775 --> 01:04:19.785
The first time when I left in 2000 Tumkur and everybody in the family and friends said, "How can you leave your twin sister and go?"

01:04:22.575 --> 01:04:26.192
And when I went to Ladakh, not one day did I miss her.

01:04:26.375 --> 01:04:29.355
I wrote her a letter also saying, "Sorry, Lata, I'm not missing you at all."

01:04:29.355 --> 01:04:35.905
So, all these concepts of, we miss something dot dot dot.

01:04:35.905 --> 01:04:37.005
It all fell apart.

01:04:37.175 --> 01:04:37.765
Everything.

01:04:38.175 --> 01:04:39.045
Many of our own...

01:04:40.135 --> 01:04:44.935
The myths that we carry in our everyday layer of relationship, about relationship and everything.

01:04:45.645 --> 01:04:46.665
I think the conditioning...

01:04:46.975 --> 01:04:49.955
You can can say conditioning.

01:04:50.385 --> 01:05:02.565
Yeah, I gave myself a lot of experiences, took a lot of risk to de-condition myself, actually.

01:05:02.565 --> 01:05:08.365
Gayithri: Any particular any comment that you want to make for, how you chose to work with marginalized groups?

01:05:12.805 --> 01:05:13.079
Lalitha: Here, I want to say something.

01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:22.780
The kind of dialogue that they have with children will happen with every child.

01:05:24.515 --> 01:05:28.175
It is not only child with the elite background or the economically...

01:05:28.525 --> 01:05:42.095
Every child needs that learning space, that learning ambience, where it can feel trusted and feel worthy about itself of whatever it is.

01:05:44.865 --> 01:05:51.625
So for me, that I worked in TVS and this one, now I see.

01:05:52.325 --> 01:05:57.655
But the only difference could be in, how do you engage the child?

01:05:58.055 --> 01:06:00.855
And, what are the consequences of that engaging?

01:06:02.095 --> 01:06:05.385
When you go to the private school, you find that the parents are educated.

01:06:05.385 --> 01:06:08.195
So, they'll send the child to tuition.

01:06:08.195 --> 01:06:09.375
So, they get marks and everything.

01:06:09.965 --> 01:06:13.485
But here, what happens is, because the child does not have any...

01:06:14.715 --> 01:06:20.275
The parents are not in a position to help the child with its academics in it, at home.

01:06:22.255 --> 01:06:26.205
You may not get that support from the community.

01:06:26.445 --> 01:06:28.755
That is the only difference.

01:06:28.775 --> 01:06:36.135
But to me, I think the engaging a child's mind should be the same everywhere, whatever maybe the marks.

01:06:36.175 --> 01:06:38.475
Because, I never taught for marks or anything at all.

01:06:38.475 --> 01:06:46.015
It was only for trying to engage with children with a topic or with a situation, with an event or anything.

01:06:47.005 --> 01:06:50.215
Because whatever it wants to be, it is all right.

01:06:50.215 --> 01:06:50.451
It all happens.

01:06:50.555 --> 01:06:58.335
But, these are all the fundamentals I think, should be built in school, in the earliest stages of a child's life.

01:07:00.915 --> 01:07:01.055
Gayithri: Sure.

01:07:01.065 --> 01:07:04.465
Lalitha: And the more openly it happens, I think it's better.

01:07:05.155 --> 01:07:15.905
Where India being a fledgling democracy, I think these children should have the capacity to question later the injustices that happened to them.

01:07:15.915 --> 01:07:24.265
Without succumbing to them, or take risks to question their authority or anything, in a more civilized manner.

01:07:26.135 --> 01:07:26.405
Gayithri: Sure.

01:07:27.095 --> 01:07:30.175
Lalitha: Not throwing stones or shouting slogans.

01:07:31.055 --> 01:07:31.235
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:07:33.795 --> 01:07:37.125
Lalitha: So, that's how I became what is called as an activist teacher.

01:07:38.385 --> 01:07:38.715
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

01:07:38.735 --> 01:07:39.281
You call yourself an activist teacher?

01:07:39.281 --> 01:07:39.965
Lalitha: Teacher as an activist.

01:07:41.345 --> 01:07:41.665
Yes.

01:07:42.005 --> 01:07:43.145
And there was a book that was...

01:07:43.155 --> 01:07:44.745
I'm sorry, I forget the name.

01:07:44.755 --> 01:07:50.965
The teacher had written such a wonderful book and it almost echoed many of my own experiences.

01:07:55.675 --> 01:07:56.380
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

01:07:56.865 --> 01:07:58.575
That brings us to a perfect point.

01:07:58.575 --> 01:08:10.865
Would you want to think with me about these different thinkers, philosophers, role models who might have influenced you, in the way you've been thinking and working?

01:08:20.275 --> 01:08:22.865
Even any schools of thoughts that you would want to mention?

01:08:25.285 --> 01:08:25.465
1: 09:27

01:08:25.505 --> 01:08:31.155
Lalitha: I told I entered school, this career without having a degree of...

01:08:31.175 --> 01:08:34.257
Without knowing who PRJ was, Carl Rogers was, Maria Montessori was, Paulo Freire was.

01:08:34.345 --> 01:08:40.245
I did not even know that Gandhi had his own vision of Naitalim.

01:08:43.825 --> 01:08:51.930
My first 10 years of schooling itself, my own reflective along with the group of teachers I worked, that is very important.

01:08:51.985 --> 01:08:58.758
The ambience that the school gives, the workplace gives you in the beginning and definitely gives you a very big confident start.

01:08:58.758 --> 01:08:59.345
And that I did my BA degree after that, made a lot of sense.

01:08:59.345 --> 01:09:27.335
I would go through the curriculum of BA with lot of courage and confidence and even critique some of the passages there, questions given there, which I thought was very, again, ritualistic in Indian conditions.

01:09:27.445 --> 01:09:28.415
Because, they're not very highly...

01:09:28.655 --> 01:09:35.925
They are just ritualistic degrees, that is all.

01:09:36.175 --> 01:09:47.285
They don't demand much from a person, who's going to be a teacher and a reflective teacher or an activist teacher as the world demands the teachers to be.

01:09:48.945 --> 01:09:52.195
But, they're also...

01:09:52.935 --> 01:09:53.365
I don't know.

01:09:53.365 --> 01:09:53.882
I have a feeling.

01:09:54.015 --> 01:09:55.452
But, there are a lot of people who I have met, who have a lot of...

01:09:55.452 --> 01:10:06.525
Most unconditioned people, women and men of all sorts.

01:10:07.105 --> 01:10:12.565
TVS helped me.

01:10:14.195 --> 01:10:20.435
My second school, where I worked helped me to look into all these theories, education theories.

01:10:21.015 --> 01:10:33.965
One thing I liked more about was called Kohlberg's moral development theories, where this question bothers me again.

01:10:33.995 --> 01:10:42.850
I was telling you about why teachers don't think the job they're doing in the class in front of the children is very important.

01:10:44.765 --> 01:10:57.125
Why is it, in any office, a person that comes to you, when you are in the service sector, when somebody comes to you, why don't you think that you are supposed to the job and that you don't do it?

01:10:57.125 --> 01:10:57.565
Why?

01:11:01.825 --> 01:11:05.795
What is it that makes you not do that job?

01:11:07.015 --> 01:11:09.015
For example, I tell this to children.

01:11:09.015 --> 01:11:10.955
For example, when I go to school, this is what I...

01:11:15.505 --> 01:11:17.815
When I travel by public buses, this it happens.

01:11:20.605 --> 01:11:25.355
The conductor may not give you the change properly back, or I have to ask him to give me the change back.

01:11:25.815 --> 01:11:39.155
So, I go and talk about these to the children, to say, why it is important that the conductors should behave as a conductor and has to be true to his profession by giving the exact change or make certain amends of it, trying to more sensitive.

01:11:39.165 --> 01:11:41.005
Because, that is the government that I see.

01:11:43.545 --> 01:11:56.355
So, the child very early, gets to know what a government is through the conductor or through the policemen or through any subordinate officer that the child meets, or the BEO officer that comes, or the education official that comes.

01:11:58.055 --> 01:12:40.255
So, all these are learning experiences to me.

01:12:40.255 --> 01:12:40.256
Merely reading the books and everything, I don't think...

01:12:40.256 --> 01:12:40.257
Child psychology, it may help in certain ways to...

01:12:40.257 --> 01:12:40.258
I'm not a researcher.

01:12:40.258 --> 01:12:40.259
I just want to be a classroom teacher.

01:12:40.259 --> 01:12:40.261
What skills are important for a classroom teacher?

01:12:40.261 --> 01:12:40.263
I was a teacher without knowing PRJ.

01:12:40.263 --> 01:12:40.265
I was a teacher without knowing Kohlberg.

01:12:40.265 --> 01:12:40.267
I was a teacher.

01:12:40.267 --> 01:12:40.275
I knew something about moral development without knowing this one.

01:12:40.275 --> 01:12:41.365
All these are very new theories.

01:12:42.605 --> 01:12:50.465
But, fundamentally what is old is, trying to be sensitive to the person that is before you.

01:12:50.485 --> 01:12:51.155
That is all.

01:12:51.555 --> 01:12:52.427
And true to the person that's standing before you.

01:12:52.427 --> 01:12:52.628
That is all.

01:12:52.695 --> 01:12:55.215
This is an age-old.

01:12:55.255 --> 01:12:58.905
Since humans evolved that has been the demand.

01:13:00.925 --> 01:13:01.817
Otherwise, there is a problem.

01:13:02.005 --> 01:13:03.735
Any other behavior is called violent.

01:13:06.095 --> 01:13:07.216
So, this I see as a form of violence.

01:13:07.216 --> 01:13:07.228
Yeah.

01:13:07.228 --> 01:13:43.895
My experience is that, when I met with all these people, people who write such great books are really as human as I am.

01:13:43.895 --> 01:13:46.765
That is why I feel proud about myself.

01:13:46.775 --> 01:13:48.365
That is all.

01:13:49.145 --> 01:13:53.565
They may have the skill to write it, to quote it, to write in the way that it is published or whatever it is.

01:13:53.985 --> 01:13:55.085
No offense meant to them.

01:13:55.105 --> 01:13:59.285
But, I think they don't intimidate me at all.

01:14:01.155 --> 01:14:01.415
Gayithri: Sure.

01:14:01.425 --> 01:14:01.705
Yeah.

01:14:03.425 --> 01:14:03.805
Totally.

01:14:05.475 --> 01:14:14.025
I know you mentioned that there was a book by a teacher that you read that really resonated with what you have been thinking.

01:14:14.045 --> 01:14:23.085
But maybe, you're not able to re recollect like the book at this point, but I would definitely love to know what book.

01:14:23.235 --> 01:14:23.255
Lalitha: Yeah.

01:14:23.255 --> 01:14:26.735
When I was jotting down the points to answer you, I thought I would, but I did not have time.

01:14:26.735 --> 01:14:28.615
Gayithri: That's fine akka.

01:14:28.625 --> 01:14:32.445
Even if we can get it at some point later, we can add it too, like a reading list.

01:14:35.285 --> 01:14:38.539
Lalitha: I remember that book very clearly.

01:14:38.539 --> 01:14:39.455
Gayithri: Was it by an Indian teacher?

01:14:39.455 --> 01:14:40.465
Or was it...

01:14:40.675 --> 01:14:42.695
Lalitha: No, it was not by any...

01:14:44.255 --> 01:14:46.248
Margaret is one more teacher who I met.

01:14:46.525 --> 01:14:47.895
I met a lot of people, actually.

01:14:47.895 --> 01:14:49.405
There is also one more important thing.

01:14:49.405 --> 01:14:56.788
Because, when you talk about marginalized schools, I forgot to tell you to tell you that I was also connected with these alternative schools in India, which people have started.

01:14:56.995 --> 01:15:09.795
People had started way back in 1970s or something, alternate schools, where they wanted to...

01:15:09.795 --> 01:15:16.085
Where they did not want to stick to your curriculum and make it a more holistic approach to schools, to learning and everything.

01:15:19.405 --> 01:15:24.415
I met a lot of teachers from schools, which are supposed to be very elite.

01:15:24.545 --> 01:15:30.885
For example, J Krishnamurti school, JK schools, Krishnamurti schools as they're called.

01:15:31.685 --> 01:15:36.438
And of course, when I went to Germany, it was very interesting for me to go to Waldorf schools also.

01:15:36.715 --> 01:15:40.635
Because when I went to Europe, my point was to visit some of these schools.

01:15:41.185 --> 01:15:45.825
It was interesting that I stayed with a family where the children went to Waldorf school and what it meant to be.

01:15:46.365 --> 01:15:50.435
What was this, about Waldorf?

01:15:50.465 --> 01:15:51.805
That's what, when I went to the Waldorf school, you know what happened?

01:15:51.855 --> 01:15:59.725
There was a person who was tending the plants, he was just loosening the soil and he happened to be the vice principal of the school.

01:16:00.955 --> 01:16:12.085
I don't see any principal of Indian school doing the job, why?

01:16:13.185 --> 01:16:13.372
You have a maali[gardener].

01:16:13.372 --> 01:16:16.075
That's why I come back to the same thing that you want to break this hierarchy.

01:16:16.075 --> 01:16:21.705
You want to bring in this dignity of labor, but you don't see people with power doing such job.

01:16:22.105 --> 01:16:25.365
Because, it's always delegated.

01:16:25.365 --> 01:16:26.655
Of course, everyone has a role to play.

01:16:26.755 --> 01:16:34.945
Everyone has a role to play, I understand, but within this understanding also, do children get an occasion to see that the principal can also do this job.

01:16:35.245 --> 01:16:36.415
The teacher can also do this job.

01:16:36.565 --> 01:16:43.755
It's a job worth doing, worth knowing.

01:16:47.285 --> 01:16:47.645
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:16:55.705 --> 01:17:01.445
You were talking about alternative schools that you...

01:17:01.445 --> 01:17:01.655
Lalitha: That is what.

01:17:01.655 --> 01:17:03.305
These alternative schools where everybody practiced everything.

01:17:05.795 --> 01:17:08.475
More egalitarian view, the child could think that no job was small or big.

01:17:11.275 --> 01:17:14.395
Everybody called each other by name and there was no hierarchy.

01:17:14.925 --> 01:17:22.835
So, these are alternative schools where the classroom strength is very small and you can do a lot of experiments with your theater, art, and music and everything.

01:17:24.665 --> 01:17:27.215
And this caters to a very small population of the society.

01:17:27.695 --> 01:17:31.405
But when I went to J Krishnamurti school, there also, I found that...

01:17:33.905 --> 01:17:42.545
But finally, again, depends upon the kind of teachers and parents who come to the school to maintain the vision of the schools that they began with.

01:17:43.205 --> 01:17:45.305
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

01:17:45.535 --> 01:18:05.105
Lalitha: So it is very important that the philosophy of the school, if it is really progressing, the parents carry it and not try to bring down the philosophy of the school, to what the market philosophy of schooling education in India is now.

01:18:05.355 --> 01:18:13.635
That you have to get marks 99 out of 100 and 99.99, and nothing else.

01:18:14.245 --> 01:18:19.305
Yeah, I want my child to do art music and everything.

01:18:19.305 --> 01:18:25.601
But in physics, I want my child to get 99.9, and in maths, perhaps 100 out of 100.

01:18:26.575 --> 01:18:26.595
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:18:30.395 --> 01:18:31.975
Any other projects that you're excited about?

01:18:32.105 --> 01:18:33.715
Lalitha: Yeah, I went to Shikshantar.

01:18:35.705 --> 01:18:36.755
One more interesting place...

01:18:37.315 --> 01:18:45.505
I have always, since the time I took off from my home, I have always taken off now and then visiting people and places, people, connecting with events.

01:18:45.555 --> 01:18:49.395
Once, I took off to somewhere in Mussoorie.

01:18:49.395 --> 01:18:52.505
I went for a theater workshop there and I met very interesting people and participated in theater there.

01:19:00.045 --> 01:19:03.665
In fact, those two people are very well known now in education sectors, actually.

01:19:04.455 --> 01:19:19.415
And there, I got introduced to what is now many people now, or many youngsters now read about is about the Dharmapal, who has written books on India, on Indian culture, what India was before the colonial times.

01:19:20.165 --> 01:19:21.251
I did not know the name of the person, till I visited that place.

01:19:21.251 --> 01:19:21.805
The organization is called SIDH.

01:19:21.805 --> 01:19:32.707
It was very interesting for me to...

01:19:32.707 --> 01:19:34.665
Gayithri: Is it SIND or SIDH, akka?

01:19:34.725 --> 01:19:35.505
S-I-D-H?

01:19:35.575 --> 01:19:37.275
Lalitha: SIDH, Sidh.

01:19:37.275 --> 01:19:41.325
I met Vinish Gupta there.

01:19:41.415 --> 01:19:42.295
I'm still in touch with him.

01:19:42.295 --> 01:19:45.861
Vipul Rikhi, who sings songs of Kabir.

01:19:46.295 --> 01:19:52.325
I met some interesting people and of course I've been going to retreat doing Navadarshanam, which is a progressive organic farming thing.

01:19:52.325 --> 01:19:54.335
Because I'm basically a farmer.

01:19:54.335 --> 01:19:55.435
So, I'm interested in farming also.

01:19:56.215 --> 01:20:06.655
And then, I went to Shikshantar, which is run by Manish Jain.

01:20:06.655 --> 01:20:07.855
I went to Shikshantar, Udaipur also.

01:20:10.105 --> 01:20:13.745
I went there four times in a year, two for an education course.

01:20:13.745 --> 01:20:16.565
I met some wonderful people from all over India there.

01:20:18.465 --> 01:20:20.035
I met this philosopher.

01:20:20.085 --> 01:20:25.065
He is in Azim Premji University, now.

01:20:25.515 --> 01:20:26.355
What is his name?

01:20:28.725 --> 01:20:29.135
I forget his name.

01:20:29.135 --> 01:20:29.379
Why do I forget names?

01:20:29.435 --> 01:20:30.025
Okay, fine.

01:20:30.025 --> 01:20:34.415
But, I met a lot of people among them sociologists.

01:20:34.755 --> 01:20:42.881
I interacted with a lot of university professors in that education course, which I took, which was very interesting.

01:20:43.235 --> 01:20:46.935
Then, I went to Eklavya which has done some tremendous job.

01:20:46.935 --> 01:20:53.275
Eklavya, I think, is one of the most interesting organizations in India, which has done a lot in education

01:20:53.805 --> 01:20:56.865
Gayithri: In what way, akka?

01:20:56.865 --> 01:20:59.435
Lalitha: Not mainstream, but it was among...

01:20:59.435 --> 01:21:03.773
Their textbooks were used in Madhya Pradesh, but later, politics outlawed its way.

01:21:03.773 --> 01:21:08.725
But many of the books in Andhra and Telengana, they're all based on this Eklavya model.

01:21:08.865 --> 01:21:13.295
Especially, social sciences and science, working by hands and they're doing by hands and everything.

01:21:14.555 --> 01:21:16.121
I met those peoples Subhu and Rashmi.

01:21:16.265 --> 01:21:22.175
They are very interesting people and University of Shikshantar.

01:21:24.145 --> 01:21:29.065
I keep meeting people and I always make it a point to meet people and attempt...

01:21:29.385 --> 01:21:36.915
During this COVID time, what has happened is, I listened to a lot of webinars, participated in webinars as a tool for the teachers.

01:21:36.915 --> 01:21:40.315
But I listen to a lot of webinars on history, on science and everything.

01:21:41.265 --> 01:21:52.937
There is so much interesting things happening that, and now my, this one is, to reach these, my learning or these sites to the teachers, with whom I'm working with.

01:21:52.937 --> 01:22:08.645
It's very important, where there's so much, tremendous of learning material that is there for teachers who learn on, to pick up and enrich themselves and be more and more confident in engaging the children with exciting thoughts.

01:22:11.895 --> 01:22:15.435
Gayithri: Would you want to mention one or two of those webinars?

01:22:16.105 --> 01:22:16.125
Lalitha: Yeah.

01:22:16.465 --> 01:22:22.435
One webinar was from the Bangalore International Center and there is a phytopia, something on plants.

01:22:22.975 --> 01:22:24.565
My goodness.

01:22:25.345 --> 01:22:27.885
I think it was an international thing that had come to Bangalore.

01:22:27.885 --> 01:22:32.025
It was an exhibition.

01:22:32.785 --> 01:22:34.615
People were not allowed because it was all online.

01:22:36.885 --> 01:22:37.415
There were lectures.

01:22:37.415 --> 01:22:38.785
You could sign up.

01:22:38.895 --> 01:22:42.015
Everything was free and it was about plants.

01:22:43.005 --> 01:22:46.005
Amazing lectures.

01:22:47.225 --> 01:22:52.395
One lecture was about...

01:22:52.455 --> 01:22:57.518
When you go to the British Museum, Natural History Museum, what would you expect to see?

01:22:57.518 --> 01:22:57.535
What do you expect?

01:22:57.535 --> 01:22:58.095
What would you expect to see?

01:22:59.385 --> 01:23:00.035
What do you expect?

01:23:01.305 --> 01:23:09.455
Natural History museum means what comes to your mind?

01:23:09.455 --> 01:23:09.589
Gayithri: Evolution.

01:23:09.589 --> 01:23:09.992
Lalitha: Blah blah blah….

01:23:09.992 --> 01:23:10.489
But nowhere are there any plants.

01:23:10.489 --> 01:23:10.491
[crosstalk]

01:23:10.491 --> 01:23:21.605
.
 Gayithri: Hmmm really that’s what I am trying to recollect, but I've never been able to go through [crosstalk] once.

01:23:22.315 --> 01:23:26.245
Lalitha: All these lectures are available online in VIC the website.

01:23:26.245 --> 01:23:41.675
This lady spoke about tiles on the roof of the museum, which has description, paintings of plants, amazing lecture on plants.

01:23:42.125 --> 01:23:43.645
She talked about each tile there.

01:23:46.145 --> 01:23:46.635
What is it?

01:23:46.715 --> 01:23:47.997
And why the plants were there?

01:23:47.997 --> 01:23:49.435
And what is the meaning?

01:23:49.445 --> 01:23:51.095
Why did the plant come there?

01:23:52.135 --> 01:23:55.605
And there was something on osmosis.

01:23:55.625 --> 01:24:14.685
I mean, very, very interesting [inaudible] and coming down to history and where I want to talk about history, there was one lecture about how kingdoms came into being in South India by a professor from IIT Manali, I think, from somewhere in North India, Mandi North India.

01:24:14.875 --> 01:24:31.465
There is another group which started Ruthumana, in Bangalore based, which held a lot of......There was this person who was Australian professor, professor was talking about how the Mysore Kings.....

01:24:31.465 --> 01:24:43.665
How did they come to become the devotee of Chamundi?

01:24:44.145 --> 01:24:58.265
And also insight into Hampi, one of the lectures where I got to know the prostitution was taxed in Hampi during Vijayanagara times.

01:25:00.835 --> 01:25:12.655
The profession was so important and it was so much in practice that the king thought it had to be taxed.

01:25:14.945 --> 01:25:18.665
Gayithri: And it was legalized, so it was a recognized profession.

01:25:18.815 --> 01:25:22.236
Lalitha: Yes recognized, which people in the 20th century are trying to grow up with it.

01:25:22.236 --> 01:25:22.245
Should we recognize it or what?

01:25:22.245 --> 01:25:39.425
Because there was one professor in Bangalore University who was trying to say that this has to be recognized as a profession so that it gives some legal status with people if you want to see it as dignity to that......if it is a kind of profession that you want, people, women choose to follow.

01:25:40.105 --> 01:25:40.345
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:25:42.495 --> 01:25:43.745
Lalitha: So amazing.

01:25:43.745 --> 01:25:52.089
And in the same big thing, there was something called as RUI one more lecture on the desert landscape that is created in Jaipur.

01:25:52.089 --> 01:25:56.914
Designer, who has created this urban desert.

01:25:56.914 --> 01:25:57.022
It was nice to know that such [inaudible] happen in India.

01:25:57.022 --> 01:25:57.207
And I want teachers and people in the education field to be at least a part of these lectures.

01:25:57.207 --> 01:25:59.270
Of course, there are plenty, but at least listening to one such lectures once a week or a fortnight, I think will make the teachers very, very competent and that is what I expect, nothing more.

01:25:59.270 --> 01:25:59.342
Gayithri: Nice.

01:25:59.342 --> 01:26:47.095
So moving forward, what maybe one or two things that you would like to see more of?

01:26:47.305 --> 01:26:48.550
Lalitha: NEP is coming into being right?

01:26:48.745 --> 01:26:59.835
The new education policy in 2020 is coming, so [inaudible] in to see how this translates, how the curriculum gets changed, how there will be some change in the curriculum.

01:27:00.305 --> 01:27:14.645
And there is already this more to bring in art and theater to government schools, which so far there is art, but not in primary schools and there is no link between curriculum, between disciplines.

01:27:15.365 --> 01:27:22.465
That means the art teacher is an art teacher and history teacher is....There is no link between the history of art, history of science or anything or theater.

01:27:22.695 --> 01:27:34.575
How can theater be used in literary, enriching literary work of the children or the history lessons.

01:27:34.855 --> 01:27:39.965
So if that space is created, I think we will have much more to do.

01:27:39.965 --> 01:27:48.595
And I'll be happy to contribute my own experiences in that area and because that is one.....

01:27:48.625 --> 01:27:55.775
Yeah, you can bring in the curriculum, you can bring in the policy, but how do you translate that into action is very, very important.

01:27:56.605 --> 01:28:09.839
So I think I will have a big role to play there, to see how [inaudible] can be integrated, we are working on that actually.

01:28:09.839 --> 01:28:18.225
So in my new social science lessons, I've tried to bring in science and social aspects of this one in science also, which is very....

01:28:18.225 --> 01:28:37.348
I [inaudible] recently held for some 200 teachers by Rotary Bangalore and the best compliment I received was one of the maths teacher, she said, "Madam, if we had really known this is what social science is all about, I wouldn't have been a maths teacher."

01:28:37.415 --> 01:28:39.490
Gayithri: And what exactly was this workshop about Akka?

01:28:39.635 --> 01:28:41.805
Like if you would want to quickly-

01:28:43.425 --> 01:28:47.005
Lalitha: This was something about how do you bring in, what is social science?

01:28:47.625 --> 01:28:48.025
Gayithri: Mm.

01:28:50.335 --> 01:28:54.555
Lalitha: So what is social science all about?

01:28:55.085 --> 01:28:56.915
What are the activities that you can do with children?

01:29:02.565 --> 01:29:04.185
What are the questions?

01:29:04.185 --> 01:29:16.595
How do you engage children with social science, because history, geography are subjects and sociology are subjects, which are treated very, very poorly in schools and colleges, even in universities sometimes.

01:29:17.335 --> 01:29:33.035
When you talk about societal, when you talk about accountability, when you talk about equity, when you talk about marginalized groups, it is very, very important that the children who become toppers do something about.

01:29:33.425 --> 01:29:34.941
Only when they know the society, they can contribute, right?

01:29:34.941 --> 01:29:44.185
[crosstalk] What are the problems that it has, and how do I use my own learning or my skills to better the society that I live in.

01:29:45.125 --> 01:29:54.635
So all this should go hand in hand.

01:29:54.635 --> 01:29:54.665
Gayithri: True.

01:29:54.745 --> 01:30:01.890
Lalitha: They liked it approach very much actually and somewhere in Tamil Nadu when I was talking to school teachers in Tamil Nadu, there was one more group talking teachers of Tamil Nadu about the Chola Empire.

01:30:02.835 --> 01:30:07.255
It was appalling to know that one of the teachers did not know that Chola was a big maritime empire.

01:30:15.265 --> 01:30:21.665
They may all be very good people, but being good is not enough, right?

01:30:21.845 --> 01:30:22.365
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

01:30:22.875 --> 01:30:24.345
Lalitha: I don't tell lies, I don't kill people, I don't eat beef.

01:30:24.345 --> 01:30:24.360
That is not being good.

01:30:24.360 --> 01:30:26.649
I'm sorry to use the word beef because people think, no, I don't eat beef, so I'm good.

01:30:26.649 --> 01:30:26.740
Gayithri: That's the more recent discourse about what's [crosstalk]

01:30:26.740 --> 01:30:26.786
.
 Lalitha: Most discourse is happening.

01:30:26.786 --> 01:30:51.875
So when you reduce everything to what you wear and what you eat, this is very unparalleled, I think in the history of India, when people talk like this.

01:30:56.605 --> 01:31:01.425
This is all very new and which is all very dangerous actually.

01:31:02.815 --> 01:31:05.935
Gayithri: Why do you say so Akka?

01:31:06.635 --> 01:31:08.157
Lalitha: Because it becomes very exclusive, right?

01:31:08.157 --> 01:31:14.015
When you want to build a world of inclusivity, then you want to become more and more exclusive, is it?

01:31:19.685 --> 01:31:26.577
I don't eat beef is an exclusivity, I don't eat meat, I don't fish, I'm a vegan, I'm exclusive.

01:31:26.577 --> 01:31:34.565
I'm married within my community, I don't allow my child to marry somebody from the other community is being exclusive.

01:31:36.405 --> 01:31:37.525
Love Jihad that is happening.

01:31:37.695 --> 01:31:41.465
The new strain that is happening, thing that is spoken in India.

01:31:42.775 --> 01:31:49.525
Oh, one more thing, what moral right do Indian gurus have to speak about the curriculum of the textbooks?

01:31:51.865 --> 01:31:55.875
Why do you think people in power have the right to speak about everything and anything?

01:31:57.855 --> 01:32:12.565
Then I go back to the times when has India ever freed itself from the clutches of this so-called religion, people in power, spiritual need is....

01:32:12.835 --> 01:32:25.945
When I think of a guru or somebody, a clad in saffron or white or whatever it even they claim to be in the realm of spirituality, I want them to cater to the need of that human need only.

01:32:27.155 --> 01:32:28.815
Can they dictate a history curriculum?

01:32:28.815 --> 01:32:30.835
Can they dictate a science curriculum?

01:32:30.845 --> 01:32:36.265
It has happened recently in Karnataka.

01:32:40.035 --> 01:32:40.525
Gayithri: Where-

01:32:42.095 --> 01:32:46.735
Lalitha: When I speak to teachers, I speak about these also.

01:32:49.275 --> 01:32:52.955
That's why some teachers said, "Oh Madam, you have lot of courage, so you can say all this."

01:32:53.035 --> 01:32:54.125
I said, who am I?

01:32:54.315 --> 01:32:54.890
I'm a teacher like you, that is all.

01:32:54.890 --> 01:32:55.035
I have a master's degree.

01:32:55.035 --> 01:32:55.267
I don't need degrees to speak my mind.

01:32:55.267 --> 01:33:44.315
So these are all the dangerous trends in India, which I don't know how to.....It is becoming more and more, and it has to be dealt very sensitively because I work in the government setup, I have to work with government school teachers because something said could carry meaning.

01:33:44.925 --> 01:33:47.325
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative] sure.

01:33:47.825 --> 01:33:50.025
Lalitha: You could put it in a way that I did not mean it to be.

01:33:50.675 --> 01:33:50.865
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:33:55.485 --> 01:34:10.375
Lalitha: So I think it is going to be, it's unfortunately more tough to create a society of inclusivity.

01:34:10.375 --> 01:34:12.315
Gayithri: Is what you're seeing as a pattern, as a trend?

01:34:12.365 --> 01:34:12.925
Lalitha: Yes.

01:34:12.925 --> 01:34:16.705
Because it's very easy, right?

01:34:20.325 --> 01:34:36.995
So I see this one to hard work, when you say hard work, it is not only that, it is trying to expand your belonging, expand your identity, not restricted to the language you speak, the food you eat or anything.

01:34:38.485 --> 01:34:42.871
I need not eat beef to be inclusive.

01:34:44.075 --> 01:34:58.265
I need not eat beef to be inclusive, but I can include a beef eating person into my psyche, into my thoughts.

01:34:58.265 --> 01:35:07.705
So how do you distinguish between people who are very different from you?

01:35:09.195 --> 01:35:11.185
How do you include them in your life?

01:35:13.385 --> 01:35:15.262
What is a parameter that you choose to include a person in your life, in your community?

01:35:15.275 --> 01:35:21.545
India is so diverse.

01:35:23.135 --> 01:35:23.435
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:35:25.405 --> 01:35:27.695
Lalitha: And I have grown in that diverse community.

01:35:28.975 --> 01:35:31.335
I don't want to be stifled now at this age.

01:35:33.195 --> 01:35:35.745
And I don't think we'll see this as progress at all.

01:35:48.525 --> 01:35:48.545
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:35:48.545 --> 01:35:59.135
Well, all we can do is hope at this point and still see if there is like some light shining somewhere to take us forward.

01:36:00.965 --> 01:36:01.215
Lalitha: Yeah.

01:36:02.935 --> 01:36:21.695
The thing is you have to keep talking about these things, taking some amount of risks with the people in very small doses so that they start to think.

01:36:22.165 --> 01:36:23.485
Gayithri: Yeah, for sure.

01:36:24.925 --> 01:36:29.165
Lalitha: I cannot give revolutionary talks like zindabad and all, I cannot do all that.

01:36:29.185 --> 01:36:30.465
That is not the way at all.

01:36:31.065 --> 01:36:31.315
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:36:33.945 --> 01:36:44.405
Lalitha: So finally, the end of the day, when you talk about humans, then you have to understand that all these divisions, hierarchies, everything is created is all human created.

01:36:45.215 --> 01:36:49.455
And fortunately, I deal with the subject of social science where I introduce all these.

01:36:49.895 --> 01:36:56.005
I find it very easy to introduce in very small doses within the curriculum itself.

01:36:56.035 --> 01:36:58.005
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative] exactly, yeah.

01:37:00.885 --> 01:37:04.215
Lalitha: Be it science, the myth of science or anything for that matter, nothing is sacred.

01:37:04.835 --> 01:37:08.285
Nothing is written in gold or on stone.

01:37:08.815 --> 01:37:09.615
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative] yeah.

01:37:11.515 --> 01:37:29.475
Lalitha: So finally, end of the day, you don't think of gravity, you don't think of your religion also, what you think of is your own comfort level of what you feel in your mind, which neither gravity can give you, not your religion can give you.

01:37:29.475 --> 01:37:31.403
And what is that?

01:37:31.885 --> 01:37:34.405
And that is you.

01:37:34.475 --> 01:37:34.755
Gayithri: Sure.

01:37:35.505 --> 01:37:38.955
Is there anything that we didn't touch upon or talk about?

01:37:39.965 --> 01:37:42.215
Because I'm also really mindful of your time.

01:37:42.245 --> 01:37:44.205
I know you are yet to have your dinner.

01:37:45.635 --> 01:37:46.245
Lalitha: No, no, no.

01:37:48.205 --> 01:37:48.645
I think....

01:37:50.345 --> 01:37:53.881
Gayithri: And of course, is it possible for you to share your notes with me Akka?

01:37:53.881 --> 01:38:07.595
Like even if it's handwritten, if you can just take a picture, I think it'll be very helpful, only if you don't mind.

01:38:09.185 --> 01:38:31.205
Lalitha: In Indian context, if I want to talk, when you said what you want to look forward to, then I want the child to feel as a global citizen, without being apologetic about your past, be ashamed of what had happened in the past and how people rate what India is.

01:38:31.635 --> 01:38:35.895
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

01:38:37.135 --> 01:38:44.185
Lalitha: I think India is becoming more and more or the situation is created in such a way, people are becoming more and more anti-West.

01:38:45.415 --> 01:38:47.495
I don't know whether I called the anti-West or something.

01:38:48.105 --> 01:39:03.335
See, they don't mind using phones and everything [inaudible] what do you call [crosstalk] they're not bothered about it, but beef eating, okay.

01:39:04.465 --> 01:39:05.745
Why should it trouble them?

01:39:05.745 --> 01:39:21.745
So when India does not export beef to its neighboring state, Karnataka does not export, the kind of section of people don't have that food, which is their staple diet.

01:39:26.965 --> 01:39:27.245
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:39:30.185 --> 01:39:42.735
Lalitha: And emotionally thinking of India as a country, which has done nothing wrong, no wrong has happened in the past.

01:39:43.585 --> 01:40:00.215
And projecting India as something which has always been a country of nonviolence, everything, I think it is something very wrong.

01:40:00.215 --> 01:40:05.403
What is happening today is very, very important.

01:40:05.403 --> 01:40:19.705
If you don't respond to the present and keep glorifying the past, it'll not take us anywhere.

01:40:20.135 --> 01:40:20.485
Gayithri: True.

01:40:27.915 --> 01:40:33.185
Lalitha: I don't think there was anything else that we missed on tak tak tak….

01:40:33.185 --> 01:40:38.385
Gayithri: It'll be nice to have a copy of those notes as well Akka.

01:40:38.395 --> 01:40:38.415
Lalitha: Yeah.

01:40:38.445 --> 01:40:47.879
If I send you the notes to you, you'll not even read one word of it, because it is how my jottings will be.

01:40:47.915 --> 01:40:52.125
Gayithri: I think that's true with most of our handwritings, but at least we can give it a try I thought.

01:40:54.675 --> 01:41:06.625
Lalitha: No, I can send certain jottings of mine for you [inaudible] . I don't know whether you've read two of my articles, which is appeared in Teacher Plus, have I ever shared it with you?

01:41:07.105 --> 01:41:07.355
Gayithri: No.

01:41:09.405 --> 01:41:10.013
Lalitha: I used to write that article.

01:41:10.013 --> 01:41:14.105
I used to write with that magazine actually, and some [crosstalk]

01:41:14.105 --> 01:41:17.685
.
 Gayithri: It would be great if you can share them, I'll try to search by myself.

01:41:17.725 --> 01:41:23.285
But if I don't land there, it'll be great if you can share, especially if you already have a copy of it Akka.

01:41:23.285 --> 01:41:37.461
Lalitha: No, I can get a copy of that very easily and send you the soft copies actually, soft copy of that and I can also send you my CV in which I've written of my experiences of what I did as [crosstalk]

01:41:37.461 --> 01:41:37.463
.
 Gayithri: Fantastic.

01:41:37.463 --> 01:41:37.471
Lalitha: Till I joined.....

01:41:37.471 --> 01:41:37.475
Gayithri: ILP?

01:41:37.685 --> 01:41:38.425
Lalitha: ILP.

01:41:38.425 --> 01:41:38.455
Gayithri: Sure.

01:41:38.455 --> 01:41:54.465
Lalitha: So that could give you an insight of what I did and what I did not do also.

01:41:54.465 --> 01:41:55.255
What I did and what I did not do.

01:41:58.795 --> 01:42:00.285
Gayithri: And where you're coming from, yeah.

01:42:01.555 --> 01:42:21.418
Lalitha: And recently I've been working on the social science curriculum again, and I've incorporated two of my friends into it who are not teachers, but they can read and write and critically they're voracious readers.

01:42:21.418 --> 01:42:21.481
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative].

01:42:21.481 --> 01:42:31.277
Lalitha: So they can look into my material and they're giving me some fantastic suggestions.

01:42:31.277 --> 01:42:40.445
Unfortunately, all that cannot be incorporated because opening up teachers to such kind of discourse has to be continuous.

01:42:40.945 --> 01:42:43.265
Gayithri: Mm-hmm [affirmative] it cannot be a one time-

01:42:43.335 --> 01:42:46.045
Lalitha: Unless it does not become their own thoughts.

01:42:46.645 --> 01:42:46.855
Gayithri: Yeah.