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This file was generated by Descript <www.descript.com>

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Gayithri: Okay.

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So maybe just to get started, can you formally introduce yourself in whatever ways you feel comfortable?

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How would you introduce yourself to our audience?

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Farhat: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Hi Gayithri.

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My name is Farhat Ara and I'll introduce myself as a learner, as an educator, science educator and an educational researcher.

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And I have been working in Srishti Manipal Institute of Art Design and Technology for the last eight years.

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And before that I did my PhD in design and technology education from Homi Bhabha Centre for Science Education in Mumbai.

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And this is the learning has been in terms of, as a science educator, it had been a little tough to kind of fit myself.

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I looked at Srishti’s profile and I said, "Oh, wow, this is something that I wanted to work in because they were working in education and something in design.

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But when I actually joined, I realized that, "Oh, this is actually a design Institute.

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They are real designers here."

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And I was looking at design and technology for middle school children.

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So that was an interesting thing, but I got to learn a lot from my colleagues and the design practitioners there and try to incorporate and develop my own niche as a science educator and trying to connect design with other as disciplines, yeah.

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And I'm going to share about that journey as to how I did that and created my own niche in that space.

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Gayithri: Brilliant, beautiful.

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I'm excited.

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So we can get us started.

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If you can share a little about your, like the research projects that you're working on currently with your students, teachers, and maybe even designers and more broadly your work in design education.

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Farhat: Yeah.

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Do you want me to start with what I did as a design…

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Gayithri: Sure.

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Farhat: As my research project and my...

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Because I can-

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Gayithri: Or you can start with a project you are currently doing okay.

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You feel that that's a better-

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Farhat: That kind of a flow, because that really helps me align with what I want to and construct my argument around that.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Yeah.

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Go ahead please.

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Farhat: Yeah.

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So yeah, my research was contextualized as you know, that within this larger framework of design and technology education program in Mumbai at home Homi Bhabha Centre and the broad goal of this program was to introduce design and technology education for Indian middle school children.

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And so my research has two broad parts, which is, looking at exploring student teachers and designers, ideas about design and attitude towards designers and design.

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And the second part was about developing a theoretical framework based on the survey for developing design activities for the curriculum.

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So the first part I did it through survey and semi-structured interviews, and the second part was through workshops and iterations that I tried out.

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And so from the analysis, it was, it's quite apparent that students would generate the ideas and associate design mostly with the art practices, with decoration painting and pattern making.

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But it was also teachers who believed, or had this ideas about design.

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And students and teachers through the interview process also, I came to realize that it was also something.

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Their ideas were influenced by how design was portrayed in the media, as something which is very trivial and relegated to the status of decoration and aesthetics.

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So my second part of my...

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I think I would love to talk about another aspect of my research was where younger students were asked to draw a designer at work.

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And in this task, I...

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No, sorry, not the younger students.

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I think all of them were asked to draw a designer at work.

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And in this drawing task, both boys and girls, they seem to have assigned gender and professional stereotypes in their drawings by depicting more number of female designers and that also more number of female dress designers of fashion designers.

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And interestingly, this stereotype seemed to grow progressively with age, which means that older children were depicting more female dress designers and artists than younger students.

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Coming in my second part of my work was around looking at developing a theoretical framework for developing and organizing the design activities.

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And I looked at Phil Roberts’s model of looking at what are the different roles that students can take in a design classroom?

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So it could be the context of designer, the maker, the user, and the observer, and this four roles view really helped me to develop my design activities and organize the experiences of students.

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And, so that's the broader frame that I wanted to share about my thesis.

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And the idea that this has my own personal understanding of design has transformed so much, but when I actually joined at a workplace with professional designers, and I'm going to talk about it later as the conversation grows.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Yeah.

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For sure.

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So where geographically, was this work located?

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The place where you asked the folks to draw designer at work?

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Farhat: Yeah, yeah.

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So these were all from Mumbai and the students were the children of employees from the Homi Bhabha Centre Research Center and the Department of [inaudible] and these were employees from a diverse levels of occupation ranging from a technician or a mechanic to the scientific officers and scientists.

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And the students also came with diverse cultural and linguistic backgrounds.

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And this really helped me.

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This was interesting because I wanted to see what are the counterparts in their own language about design, about how did they understood design in their own Indian languages?

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And, yeah, so, and the teachers also similarly came from diverse linguistic background and designer sample was very few, very located.

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These are all design students, PhD students and I wanted to see a comparison between what are the nuanced ideas in the design among the design professionals vis-a-vis the understanding of design among the students and teachers.

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That was the main idea of comparing as well.

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Gayithri: Nice.

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And I know you mentioned that there was linguistic diversity.

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Would you want to just comment a little?

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Farhat: Yeah.

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It was, I think most of them came up with words like color as the one that associated with design.

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I mean color or counterparts of color in other Indian languages.

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And so I had one translator who would really literally sat together together and said, "What does this word mean?

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In Kannada, what does it mean?"

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Whatever the students had written and all of them irrespectively of what state they came from.

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It was all color.

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The word that they associated with design.

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Whereas when we talked to designers, they said, "No more.

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Color is art.

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We are designers.

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We are not artists."

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So, yeah.

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So that was the interesting thing that I found out.

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Gayithri: Anything else you want to add about...

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I know you mentioned that students were coming from homes of different kinds.

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Would you want to elaborate a little on that?

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Farhat: I personally, I mean, there was not.

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Even though the students came from a different background, the fact that the language, there was this aspect of language that I probed them on one aspect.

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I think there was this overall attitude towards design that, which was very common across all students, in respect to what the...

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The interesting thing was that they understood what, they perceived design as something which was meant only for women or girls.

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It was not like they, "Oh, I would want to learn about design, but yeah, this is not meant for me as a boy.

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It is for girls."

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These are soft, skilled professions, and these are meant for girls.

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And I think this has important implications because when teaching right now in Srishti, we see a larger population of students as girls here.

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Gayithri: Wow.

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Farhat: You, and yeah.

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I mean, you can actually see how this kind of imagery and this kind of attitude actually reflects in practice where you actually see more representation of women and girls in design institutes.

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Gayithri: Interesting.

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So it's gotten a gendered connotation from middle school that kind of then shows off in these settings.

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Farhat: Yeah, absolutely.

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And I think I wanted to talk about it later, where I was also interested in looking at gender, how gender plays out in different places starting from school textbooks, even looking at...

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If you look at the kind of visual representations that you have in school textbooks and the imageries, it is so...

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There are so many stereotypes and discriminations that are already associated with imageries.

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And these visual images are very powerful.

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They tend to speak more than words, right?

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Gayithri: Yes.

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Farhat: So it's how they are internalized these stereotypes through imageries.

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And then if you actually see that reflected in career choices, because you don't see women represented in STEM courses or women represented even in occupations, and that's the reason why you choose certain occupations.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Yeah, yeah.

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For sure.

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Well hopefully we will get to that as we continue.

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So speaking of your current practice, how would you describe your professional role right now?

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Farhat: Yeah, so I'm a faculty at Srishti Manipal Institute of Art, Design, and Technology.

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And this is, India's one of the most renowned Institute in design and also one of the oldest.

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I would, again, as I said, my practice would be as a learner, as an educator and as an educational researcher, I have been engaged in teaching courses.

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And also right now, currently I'm co-heading a course at Srishti as the head of studies called The Creative Education Course and this is fairly a new course introduced in Srishti and perhaps one of the only Institute in India that offers a design degree for an education course.

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It's quite challenging and equally exciting to work in this interdisciplinary space, because when we look at education and learning from a designerly lens, how do you bring in innovation and creativity in that space of learning?

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And the main idea is to look if you use art and design tools when we are facilitating for these students.

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And there are also these mindful practices and reflective approaches in our learning approach.

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As the head of studies, I also have this responsibility of managing the course, providing academic leadership for the course in terms of helping facilitators who are teaching courses in creative education with planning, if they want to, or ensuring that the plan that they make reflects the course objectives and also address students' concerns and provide and in fact, track each and every student and guide them throughout the course.

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As a learner and collaborator, I think I always love to learn new things, new ideas, and new skills.

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And I love to get inspired from people and their best practices.

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So I try to emulate best practices in my work style and I believe that people can offer you new perspectives when you actually but you might not have thought of.

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And this is the reason why I learned to code when I joined Srishti, and this was something for the first time that I had learned in my life.

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Luckily I got acquainted with a few fantastic people in my workplace, and they really helped me to learn a great deal in terms of storytelling in terms of art practices.

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And I learned Scratch on the go, and then also taught it to my son who was like, I think, five or six year old at that time, and then facilitated this to a group of kids from marginalized backgrounds.

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They were from some urban slums in Bangalore.

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It was a failure for me because I could not actually communicate in Kannada and it was struggling with the language and also troubleshooting on Scratch was challenging for me.

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But it got as an event as an eye opener for me, because I happened to also got an opportunity to interact with one of the ex-Srishti students who was working with MIT Media Lab during that time.

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And she happened to come and do workshops with the same kids that I had worked with.

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And really it was a great learning experience for me to witness how she used storytelling and how she used art as a way of self expression, and as a way of really communicating with each other and making stories using technology and design.

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So that really helped me to really see how do I place myself, how do I place what I have learned?

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I am also fascinated with science and life science.

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How do I really use science, with stories, with design and with art as well as technology?

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Yeah.

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So as a teaching faculty, then I have been engaged in developing interdisciplinary units, both at the graduate level and the postgraduate level.

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And I really love to work at this confluence of art, design, literature, history of science and philosophy of science.

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Gayithri: Brilliant.

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Can you tell a little about the community with whom you work, the geographic context in which all of this work is going on?

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I know you briefly mentioned that you worked with the socioeconomic leaders at the engaged pockets of Bangalore initially, but then if you want to expand a little more on that.

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Farhat: Yeah.

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So that was a special school, which was where special guidance, which, where Srishti was worked for their curriculum, was developing the curriculum for this particular school.

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Whereas this is apart from the students community at Srishti.

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The community of students, at Srishti and the teachers that I work with, they come from all over India and they are diverse in terms of culture, language, and even practice.

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So, you have as a faculty and as a facilitator, we are very sensitive to this and provide support in terms of every kind of support in terms of embracing this diversity and making the class very inclusive.

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And we also have students who need learning support and who have identified themselves with certain extra support needs, or that they require.

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And they identify themselves during the time of admission.

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And we monitor these students individually, and help them and provide appropriate support through the course during teaching, during assessment and help them in learning.

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The teaching community, of course, again, as I said, they are also coming from diverse backgrounds with culturally different and also diverse set of practices.

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So you have artists and designs from different disciplines.

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You have mathematicians, you have environmentalists, you have ecologists, you have science educators, storytellers, filmmakers, and performers.

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So I think this rich set of diversity allows for a lot of collaborations to happen among faculty.

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And this has led to some really interesting and innovative courses to develop.

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I think there is no...

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We don't have a separate distinct discipline or a department, right.

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So it's very open and there is a lot of intermingling of ideas and practices also as well.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Interesting.

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And would you want to explain, maybe give an example of any one of those innovative or very interesting course or something that came up because of these collaborations?

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Farhat: Yeah.

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I think one of the course that I did with...

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I was interested in biology and in life science and there was a faculty who was in visual communication and we wanted to marry visual communication with life science.

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And this was a project space where students had...

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This was a fourth year project where students had to work independently most of the time.

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And we provided them with the art and design tools and the context, and they came up with diverse set of ideas.

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So life science was a springboard for them to use the content of life science and the product outcome was in terms of visual communication.

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So it could be books, it could be posters, it could be videos, animation, films, but the content has to be around life science.

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So it was a very interesting project and I just loved it because I had seen something for the first time that, just a context of life science and we looked at different ideas in science, in life science, classification of organisms, playing with hydro, playing with microbes and giving them different kinds of ideas to work around.

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And they took it in two different directions and came up with different ideas in visual communications.

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Yeah.

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And there was one more where one of we co-designed one unit where I was working with Scratch and one of my colleagues, she was working with storytelling and understanding communities and that was a really beautiful course that I co-facilitated with her, where we looked at how storytelling could be done through Scratch and using digital media, as well as physical materials out there.

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And we did role plays and performances.

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So that was also something that was very exciting.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Beautiful.

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And I know you mentioned earlier about how it is a predominantly female group of students that Srishti has historically attracted.

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Do you want to comment on that more for how this has shaped your teaching and learning in classrooms or the codes design?

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Farhat: Yeah.

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I mean, there are certain...

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I mean, now that I reflect back, it's really when you look at some of the courses have more voice and then when you actually look at which are those courses which attracts more boys, and those are animation courses.

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Those are human centered design courses.

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Those are user experience design courses, right.

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And which are the courses which have more female students?

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You say those are contemporary art practices, those are creative education, those are perhaps more...

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You see a balance between product designing, you see both of them.

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But there are definitely some courses which attract more female students and some which are more...

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And perhaps it comes from a certain kind of stereotypes and imaginations about what career suits a girl and which are the softer, design domains, and which are the hard skills, human centered, for example, you working with technology, you're working with user interface, and then business, “BSSG” is another course which we have, where it's associated with entrepreneurship and business strategies.

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You'll find more boys there, right.

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So of course this kind of imaginations are coming from that stereotypes that are already existing in society.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: For sure.

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Are these electives?

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So do you try to talk to students before they take these courses or-

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Farhat: Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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We really mentor them.

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And if the students are lacking in certain say, for example, if they're lacking in design thinking skills, then we really help them say that, "Okay, you have not have enough credits on design thinking," or something that will help you build your portfolios.

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Then you must take these courses.

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So we really help each of those students to navigate through the courses and the beautiful part about creative education, the course that I'm co-leading with my colleague is that this is a very interdisciplinary course.

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So education is situated everywhere and we do not look at education only in the classroom context, but in diverse spaces, like museums, zoos, even spaces like public spaces, how can learning happen there?

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And by wondering that widens the scope of where you can actually design intervention and facilitate learning in those spaces.

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So, what happens is that these students can actually have maybe 35% in their core discipline, but they can actually take from other disciplines as well.

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So they are situated in their course, but navigate between other courses.

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So they're taking human centered design, they go for business strategies, they go for visual communication and take up the skills from there so that it generates two other skills that they can gather.

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Gayithri: Nice, nice.

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Farhat: I wanted to share my experience once as when you're now talking about it.

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It's long and I forgot.

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It was one of the...

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It's like how stereotypes...

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So this was the first time that I had taken up hijab.

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You know me, right.

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I was not, I was-

00:26:25.220 --> 00:26:26.254
Gayithri: Exactly, that was one of the things.

00:26:26.254 --> 00:26:29.270
And I was like, I know that it's also very sensitive.

00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:40.340
Farhat: It was something that I wanted to identify myself with and I mean, I don't know, I just had a conversation with someone and they said, "Hey, you don't look like a Muslim."

00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:41.530
I said, "Okay.

00:26:42.030 --> 00:26:45.270
I will look like a Muslim."

00:26:45.320 --> 00:26:47.479
And you will, from far, you will know.

00:26:47.899 --> 00:26:53.260
And whatever you have to say, you have to say it in front of me on my face and I'm going to be dressed up this way.

00:26:53.950 --> 00:26:59.889
So anyway, and then what happened was that I was offering one.

00:27:00.180 --> 00:27:05.969
So we don't disclose when the students are choosing electives or any courses.

00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:14.360
We don't disclose the names of the faculty because that creates bias and you have more students signing up for particular faculty.

00:27:14.810 --> 00:27:15.525
And so it's-

00:27:15.525 --> 00:27:19.149
Gayithri: Just the course that is being offered, but you don't tell who's instructing the courses.

00:27:19.169 --> 00:27:20.139
Farhat: Yeah, exactly.

00:27:20.299 --> 00:27:25.969
So we just give them the abstract and not disclose other than that.

00:27:26.520 --> 00:27:45.160
So there was this course that I was offering, which was Critical Issues in Science and Technology, and really looking at this interplay of science, technology, and society and this was early on when I had joined Srishti and I was really interested in doing that.

00:27:45.890 --> 00:27:50.910
And many of the boys joined this course and I was intimidated.

00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:56.869
I said, "Oh,” out of 30 students, there were more...

00:27:56.939 --> 00:27:59.450
I think 75% of them were boys.

00:28:00.209 --> 00:28:09.400
And when I entered the classroom on the first day, it was like, "Are you facilitating this course?"

00:28:10.840 --> 00:28:11.570
I said, "Yes."

00:28:12.870 --> 00:28:14.520
"You are facilitating this course?"

00:28:14.889 --> 00:28:15.810
I said, "Yes.

00:28:17.850 --> 00:28:19.570
“Science, technology and society?"

00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:20.610
I said, "Yes."

00:28:22.600 --> 00:28:27.190
It was very, very starking, like on my face, right.

00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:34.560
And after that I think just on the first day itself, the second day, a few of the students wanted to leave the course.

00:28:35.409 --> 00:28:39.259
Gayithri: They told that or implicit…

00:28:40.379 --> 00:28:40.889
Farhat: Implicit.

00:28:41.049 --> 00:28:41.379
Yeah.

00:28:41.399 --> 00:28:51.099
It implicit, because on the first day itself, we had something about, you talked about some politics and something, and then they didn't appreciate.

00:28:52.289 --> 00:28:56.639
But it was something like, I was really shaken.

00:28:56.869 --> 00:29:00.049
That shook me, but yeah.

00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:02.039
I said, "Okay, no problem.

00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:07.969
I'm just going to do what I'm doing and what I love doing best," so yeah.

00:29:10.429 --> 00:29:14.889
Gayithri: That must have shook you because coming from Homi Bhabha.

00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:15.799
Yeah.

00:29:16.939 --> 00:29:22.799
Like in Srishti, you would've thought, some ideas about what these spaces will feel like for you.

00:29:22.959 --> 00:29:23.389
Yeah.

00:29:24.419 --> 00:29:24.649
Farhat: Yeah.

00:29:24.649 --> 00:29:29.599
But then it was also my first experience of teaching adult students.

00:29:30.969 --> 00:29:36.349
Of really looking at what their aspirations are, what their motivations are.

00:29:38.459 --> 00:29:42.509
Something that helped me, and these were all mature students, like 3rd years.

00:29:42.509 --> 00:30:02.269
And so, I don't know, I mean, this incident was just on my face saying that, "Hey, there is a certain stereotypes associated with” what is the image of, and there were many, many things that were deeply visible.

00:30:03.209 --> 00:30:12.949
For example, just that women cannot teach an STS or science technology program and that too a Muslim woman.

00:30:12.959 --> 00:30:17.419
So how dare you teach something like that to us?

00:30:18.339 --> 00:30:22.419
I mean, it was a nasty thing that happened on the first day.

00:30:22.439 --> 00:30:26.819
And then, yeah, so that was something.

00:30:27.059 --> 00:30:29.559
I mean, because we have certain discussions round politics, around government and that I think...

00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:50.819
And the problem was that they were not able to take government as an objective body, but more as something that was more a political group rather than an objective body.

00:30:51.009 --> 00:30:53.749
Gayithri: And it is that it is beyond critique.

00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:55.169
Farhat: Yeah, exactly.

00:30:55.679 --> 00:30:56.999
Gayithri: Critique and it is sacred…

00:30:57.659 --> 00:30:58.259
Farhat: Yeah.

00:30:58.449 --> 00:31:03.139
It didn't set well and it really shook me and I have never taught that unit again.

00:31:04.019 --> 00:31:11.369
Gayithri: No, that's also unfortunate because your school should have if possible made room for more of those.

00:31:11.379 --> 00:31:11.399
Yeah.

00:31:12.229 --> 00:31:15.579
Farhat: But no, I have not shared that with my school.

00:31:15.719 --> 00:31:21.399
No, I have not shared, so I was ashamed.

00:31:21.809 --> 00:31:22.799
I was ashamed.

00:31:23.229 --> 00:31:25.159
Gayithri: No, but it should be the other way Farhat-

00:31:25.529 --> 00:31:26.549
Farhat: I know, I know.

00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:27.079
I know, Gayithri.

00:31:28.499 --> 00:31:28.939
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:31:29.779 --> 00:31:39.139
We come to realize so many things like so much later, because it takes time to sit with it and to really grapple with what actually happened.

00:31:40.589 --> 00:31:51.929
Farhat: I was embarrassed to even share this and say that something like this has happened and to it reliving the same thing it's when you're sharing and now it's-

00:31:51.929 --> 00:31:52.889
Gayithri: Thank you so much.

00:31:52.909 --> 00:31:53.479
Thank you.

00:31:53.709 --> 00:31:55.227
And thanks a lot for sharing.

00:31:55.369 --> 00:31:56.399
It meant a lot for me.

00:31:56.679 --> 00:31:57.349
Farhat: Yeah.

00:31:57.529 --> 00:32:04.049
I mean, yeah, there are issues which I face in my day to day life because of I wear this.

00:32:04.049 --> 00:32:04.222
Gayithri: And openly identifying.

00:32:04.222 --> 00:32:04.279
Yeah.

00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:04.337
Farhat: Yeah.

00:32:04.337 --> 00:32:10.348
And I hear comments like, "Oh, when are you going to wear your black robe now?

00:32:10.939 --> 00:32:16.669
When are you going to cover your head now, cover your face now?"

00:32:17.459 --> 00:32:20.199
And that keeps me strong.

00:32:20.209 --> 00:32:26.539
I have learned to really take that and not get influenced by it at all now.

00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:33.859
And I said that it is also something that...

00:32:35.169 --> 00:32:44.829
It's not just a political decision, but also something that reminds me when I wear this, I know I cannot do any ugly thing in my life.

00:32:45.709 --> 00:32:51.259
When I do this, I know that I cannot be doing any wrong things to anyone.

00:32:52.549 --> 00:33:01.099
It's a constant reminder to me that I am a Muslim and I'm a good Muslim, that I am holding...

00:33:02.219 --> 00:33:13.071
It's like responsibility that I am holding on myself saying that I cannot be doing bad things because it's then again, going to portray on the community.

00:33:13.071 --> 00:33:13.199
So it is with a lot of responsibility that I'm wearing it.

00:33:13.199 --> 00:33:13.221
I'm sorry.

00:33:13.221 --> 00:33:13.264
Gayithri: No, no, no, no.

00:33:13.264 --> 00:33:39.629
I hear you and just to add a little bit to that, that was one of the reasons that I actually stopped wearing a bindi and stopped wearing a mangal sutra or whatever because that is the expectation in my community so that I look more Hindu.

00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:44.379
But when I was working with teachers, there are all kinds of teachers.

00:33:44.819 --> 00:33:48.899
I don't want to identify in a way that makes me exclusive.

00:33:50.379 --> 00:33:56.974
That kind of throws on people's space that dominant power in this society, right.

00:33:57.189 --> 00:34:00.749
Just being a Hindu, being, especially a Brahman woman.

00:34:01.109 --> 00:34:07.649
It is already a lot of power that I have to grapple with for every space that I enter.

00:34:07.729 --> 00:34:12.949
Now I don't want to further it by decorating myself and flaunting it.

00:34:13.259 --> 00:34:25.269
Rather, I would try to see how I can make the space more equitable by dropping down some of those and to really be more open and welcoming.

00:34:26.229 --> 00:34:33.499
And that is when long back, this is even before I came here, I stopped wearing all of these for similar reasons.

00:34:34.339 --> 00:34:40.589
Political partly but more, it was about this personal empowerment.

00:34:41.369 --> 00:34:41.769
Farhat: Yeah.

00:34:41.829 --> 00:34:51.229
I mean, I feel empowered because now I know there are conversations behind my back and I don't care about it.

00:34:51.539 --> 00:34:56.829
But now I say, my statement is that you have to accept me as I am.

00:34:57.429 --> 00:35:03.509
You have to really, because this is not hindering my thinking process or anything in any way.

00:35:03.979 --> 00:35:06.649
This is who I am and you have to accept me.

00:35:08.029 --> 00:35:13.799
Even if I don't wear this, my name itself is suggestive of who I am, right.

00:35:14.059 --> 00:35:19.699
So if you want to discriminate, you're going to discriminate even with my name even if I don't wear it, right.

00:35:20.009 --> 00:35:26.489
So I wear it by choice because I want to be identified and I want you to accept me with that.

00:35:26.729 --> 00:35:26.809
Gayithri: Exactly.

00:35:27.069 --> 00:35:31.509
Farhat: So that's my, that is-

00:35:31.509 --> 00:35:31.932
Gayithri: That is your fuller self.

00:35:31.932 --> 00:35:32.188
That is your fuller self.

00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:32.579
Farhat: Yeah.

00:35:32.709 --> 00:35:33.623
Gayithri: No, thanks for bringing that in.

00:35:33.623 --> 00:35:34.039
Yeah, no, that is very powerful, Farhat.

00:35:34.819 --> 00:35:39.619
I'm really proud of you.

00:35:39.619 --> 00:35:39.849
Farhat: Thank you.

00:35:43.479 --> 00:35:43.499
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:35:43.509 --> 00:35:45.099
How did you get into this?

00:35:45.329 --> 00:35:52.669
How did you start with this journey now, just thinking about what personally got you to do this work that you're doing today?

00:35:52.819 --> 00:35:56.829
What motivated you to take up design education?

00:35:57.469 --> 00:36:05.589
Farhat: Yeah, I mean, I think I, always I had been part of this design technology group during my co-graduate courses.

00:36:05.629 --> 00:36:13.419
And I was reading a lot of things and they were already existing like research papers and people were doing this.

00:36:13.419 --> 00:36:14.219
It was a large group.

00:36:14.269 --> 00:36:19.839
I mean, not large, but maybe few people, two or three people were working already on design technology.

00:36:20.549 --> 00:36:38.549
And I think what got me interested was to look at design as something which is different from, designability as different from the scientific ability or the humanities stream and that got me really interested.

00:36:38.689 --> 00:36:50.369
And I think this is not my statement, but this has been a code by designers themselves like Bruce Archer, Nigel Cross, and many other, Bryan Lawson.

00:36:50.379 --> 00:36:54.239
And they've always identified design as distinct from science and the humanities.

00:36:54.799 --> 00:36:57.159
And they say that if design is something which is...

00:36:57.589 --> 00:37:16.489
If we want literacy and numeracy to be a part of school curriculum, design leads to constructive thinking and externalizing thoughts, which is very different from scientific capabilities and that should be included as part of design for general education.

00:37:16.489 --> 00:37:21.729
I think that got me really into really seeing how I should be working towards that.

00:37:22.989 --> 00:37:23.329
Yeah.

00:37:24.189 --> 00:37:24.889
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:37:25.899 --> 00:37:26.159
And-

00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:27.009
Farhat: Yeah.

00:37:27.669 --> 00:37:27.879
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:37:27.879 --> 00:37:28.189
Sorry.

00:37:28.189 --> 00:37:28.483
Farhat: Go ahead.

00:37:28.629 --> 00:37:29.519
No, no, it's okay.

00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:30.209
Please go on.

00:37:31.069 --> 00:37:34.919
Gayithri: Oh, no, I was just asking, so how do you name the field?

00:37:35.089 --> 00:37:43.079
Do you call it design education or is there any other name that you or your research community or your practice community goes with?

00:37:43.729 --> 00:37:49.329
Farhat: Yeah, I think design education is what I would call it.

00:37:50.709 --> 00:37:53.989
I'm talking about my research work.

00:37:54.169 --> 00:38:05.299
Definitely that fits in within the framework or within the work of design and technology education or STEM learning, or STEAM learning so that I can easily place under.

00:38:05.869 --> 00:38:20.179
My trouble starts when I start to place work, that I'm doing in Srishti right now, which is so interdisciplinary that it really, I find it difficult to really say where should I place it.

00:38:20.709 --> 00:38:45.149
So just to give you an example of the courses that I've been teaching is to look at say Darwin's theory, evolutionary theory by natural selection and children’s literature, and to really see that connections between how Darwin's theory has influenced or children's authors of the contemporary times.

00:38:46.769 --> 00:38:47.789
And then just to look at...

00:38:52.619 --> 00:39:04.679
They look at how Darwin's theory has real life implications in terms of how this has been misappropriated, misused, social darwinism to uphold racism.

00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:19.416
And then we looked at different aspects of Darwin's theory itself, but the idea was not to teach them content, not overwhelm them with scientific content, but to really appreciate how the theories developed in science and how it influences it.

00:39:19.416 --> 00:39:21.493
It does not remain within its core, but influences everything around.

00:39:21.493 --> 00:39:48.039
So these were something that I was exploring with my students and also one aspect which is very true in most science discoveries, which is about this single narrative or the single story.

00:39:48.369 --> 00:39:51.339
There is this hero or the discoverer.

00:39:51.349 --> 00:39:55.979
He or she is the one who is going to discover, and there is nobody around him.

00:39:55.989 --> 00:40:18.759
So that we were challenging that narrative and because we were challenging that narrative, I have to really take them through the history of science to really see what were the different ideas and context where this person was working and how that person is actually sitting on the shoulders of different giants, not so he's or she's not this.

00:40:18.959 --> 00:40:36.399
And then that we were looking at this in the context of Darwin's theory, we were looking at in the context of penicillin discovery, and Fleming's discovery and microbes and so there were different things that I'm working on and developing.

00:40:37.889 --> 00:40:43.929
So these are some courses that I find difficult to really place under and name it.

00:40:44.389 --> 00:40:47.009
So I'll give you one example I was working on.

00:40:47.839 --> 00:40:50.899
I feel sometimes it's an opportunity actually.

00:40:51.469 --> 00:40:54.789
Other way around its opportunity because you can place them in different…

00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:58.596
Gayithri: You're not forced to bucket yourself.

00:40:58.809 --> 00:40:59.909
Farhat: Yeah, exactly.

00:40:59.969 --> 00:41:00.249
Yeah.

00:41:00.249 --> 00:41:01.669
This one does not agree.

00:41:01.699 --> 00:41:03.129
Can I just send it somewhere else?

00:41:03.349 --> 00:41:13.219
So for example, I was looking at functions, for example, functions in design and functions in biology.

00:41:14.629 --> 00:41:16.009
These are something that connects, right?

00:41:18.129 --> 00:41:23.959
And with functions, we look at biomimicry and bio-inspired design.

00:41:24.409 --> 00:41:41.509
So I developed that unit and we had some really fantastic students, solutions that they came up with and we sent it to the Biomimicry Institute Global Design Challenge and of course we were just up to the semifinals rounds.

00:41:41.509 --> 00:41:53.959
They could be selected for that, but they got some really good feedback from the judges, and that time was a very motivating thing for me, because I tried for the first time.

00:41:53.959 --> 00:42:03.986
But what happened was that incidentally during that time, and I was planning to publish this as a paper and translate this into a paper and publish it in a biomimic journals.

00:42:03.986 --> 00:42:19.899
However, what happened was that my ex colleagues from TISS, they invited me to write a chapter on visual spatial thinking in design.

00:42:21.499 --> 00:42:36.279
And I had used a lot of visual materials and spatial materials with students in order to help them understand function and structure in biology, just to translate the content of biological, heavy content, make it easy.

00:42:36.609 --> 00:42:37.679
And then I said, wow.

00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:44.409
That's an interesting work that I could translate this paper into, that dimension and that aspect.

00:42:45.089 --> 00:42:45.569
So, yeah.

00:42:46.469 --> 00:42:54.959
And then we published it in a education journal and so, yeah, but I'm still writing papers for that.

00:42:55.869 --> 00:43:03.387
Gayithri: No, that's very interesting and also I can relate to a lot of it because my advisor here, she, along with her...

00:43:03.387 --> 00:43:08.971
She had a doctoral student who was very interested in this.

00:43:08.971 --> 00:43:12.017
He came with a biotechnology background.

00:43:12.017 --> 00:43:14.555
His name is Justice Walker.

00:43:14.555 --> 00:43:21.154
He's a big part of the Global Bio Summit and all of that.

00:43:21.154 --> 00:43:25.109
And they both together had a NSF project where they got high school students to do this bio design.

00:43:25.369 --> 00:43:26.689
They called it bio design.

00:43:27.389 --> 00:43:33.199
And then there, again, it was about manipulating an E cell for a particular function.

00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:35.109
And what does that mean?

00:43:35.109 --> 00:43:36.339
And, yeah.

00:43:36.959 --> 00:43:51.029
Farhat: I know, I mean, those are something that are, I mean, I consider them as high end, high tech classrooms, which are enabled with all these materials.

00:43:51.029 --> 00:43:52.499
Gayithri: Incubators and-

00:43:53.329 --> 00:43:57.809
Farhat: And instruments, and I practice frugal design and frugal-

00:43:58.509 --> 00:43:58.869
Gayithri: Perfect.

00:43:59.379 --> 00:44:00.183
How do you do that?

00:44:00.183 --> 00:44:01.149
Do you want to tell a little more-

00:44:01.149 --> 00:44:01.499
Farhat: Yeah.

00:44:01.499 --> 00:44:01.969
Yeah.

00:44:01.969 --> 00:44:06.569
So for example, I know there are many ways.

00:44:06.699 --> 00:44:10.389
So my labs are the kitchen labs.

00:44:10.919 --> 00:44:15.759
So I look at and explore a lot of these easy experiments that can be done.

00:44:24.269 --> 00:44:30.289
For example just extracting DNA, for example and you have lot of materials and to really do that.

00:44:30.859 --> 00:44:35.009
And of course, I mean, it's not something that they can really get it.

00:44:35.349 --> 00:44:39.009
The idea is to really inspire them and motivate them.

00:44:40.269 --> 00:44:47.519
And I mean, the home kitchen DNA that you get, I mean, it doesn't tell you anything, right.

00:44:47.539 --> 00:45:03.879
But what it does tell you is to create interest for life science and to really see how I as a designer can do something and take inspiration from this and create an artistic or a design response towards this.

00:45:05.369 --> 00:45:16.159
So those are something that I do or something like another thing that we do is to really use laser pens and create microscopes using that.

00:45:16.409 --> 00:45:34.839
Just a droplet of water and laser pen and we just throw that light and you'll see unicellular microbes on a screen.Or maybe, hack a webcam, an old webcam and create a digital microscope using that.

00:45:35.369 --> 00:46:05.329
So I've been really using all these frugal methods of, you can say, democratizing science and getting students to access that, things that are…of course if I request these things could be available, but as a designer, they need to also see that, "How do I really reclaim resources and redesign something that is in a frugal manner,” right.

00:46:05.499 --> 00:46:09.839
Not really going for high end microscopes and do that, right.

00:46:10.459 --> 00:46:15.389
I do have microscopes that they engage in, but these are something that we try and do.

00:46:15.429 --> 00:46:27.809
So I'm an ardent fan of Arvind Gupta, his toys and all and see how that can really help students learn a lot of things and unpack a lot of science concepts.

00:46:28.789 --> 00:46:29.209
Gayithri: Beautiful.

00:46:29.529 --> 00:46:32.139
That brings us frankly to our next question.

00:46:32.789 --> 00:46:33.651
Who are your role models?

00:46:33.651 --> 00:46:34.445
Who are your inspirers or motivators to do this work?

00:46:34.445 --> 00:47:01.189
Farhat: Yeah, I think, I mean, I am like a constructivist, but I take inspiration from also Seymour Papert, and my thesis was heavily influenced by his work, but also something...

00:47:02.739 --> 00:47:03.699
But, you know what?

00:47:03.739 --> 00:47:08.459
I feel, I have learned deeply by actually engaging in the practice.

00:47:08.529 --> 00:47:11.949
When you're doing PhD it's like, you are just being part of...

00:47:12.429 --> 00:47:20.759
You're just talking in theories, but when you actually come and situate yourself in the real context, you'd learn better.

00:47:21.139 --> 00:47:30.899
And so real understanding of Constructionism was actually when I actually got in here and really practiced.

00:47:31.629 --> 00:47:41.119
Mitch Resnick is something also that I really admire his work and try to follow his Four Ps in my classrooms.

00:47:41.729 --> 00:47:45.099
And let me see my notes…

00:47:45.149 --> 00:47:45.789
Gayithri: No worries.

00:47:45.949 --> 00:47:47.039
Take your time.

00:47:48.809 --> 00:47:49.119
Farhat: Yeah.

00:47:49.119 --> 00:48:12.829
I think in the contemporary ones, Duckworth is something also that I take inspiration from and because I have to make my classrooms more inclusive and to use different kinds of senses and not just the visual and the cognitive.

00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:28.699
So I rely a lot on Gardner's Multiple Intelligences and see really try to translate that into my practice and see what are the different ways in which I can really get the students to learn using their different senses.

00:48:29.219 --> 00:48:39.239
And I also draw from this Harvard Project Zo, tools for thinking or the thinking routines.

00:48:39.709 --> 00:48:52.189
And that has also really helped me to really help students translate their ideas and externalize that onto creating something in the external world.

00:48:52.489 --> 00:49:00.179
So those are something that have helped me facilitate in classrooms.

00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:12.549
I'm really fascinated with the entire work of MIT Media Lab that they're doing with, and the work that you do, something on using electronics in storytelling.

00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:16.509
So that is something that is very, very powerful for me.

00:49:16.509 --> 00:49:31.549
And I want to really use that in my practice to see how storytelling with electronics, how can I really use that along with biology because my biology is always going to come in somewhere.

00:49:35.500 --> 00:49:36.469
Gayithri: Oh, beautiful.

00:49:37.929 --> 00:49:43.669
Farhat: So, yeah, so these are something that I have learned in the process in my practice.

00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:48.369
Not something that I was acquainted, frankly speaking, I was not acquainted with.

00:49:48.369 --> 00:49:50.329
I just picked up.

00:49:50.359 --> 00:49:50.629
Yeah.

00:49:50.629 --> 00:49:52.019
I picked up from here...

00:49:52.029 --> 00:50:02.589
And I also, just to tell you one more person like Keri Smith is somebody I draw a lot from her work.

00:50:02.949 --> 00:50:11.609
So Keri Smith, she's an artist, but she has a beautiful encapsulating journals that she creates for artists and scientists.

00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:21.039
And those are some interesting, very interesting ways of observing the world perhaps in the ways that you might not have even seen the world.

00:50:21.359 --> 00:50:28.009
So she has those ways go to collect this thing and collect that thing and do something with that.

00:50:28.329 --> 00:50:29.183
So it's very, very...

00:50:29.183 --> 00:50:41.489
There are some hundreds of things that she asked you to do, and that has really helped me also to say, "Oh, wow, this is something that I can do with my class to really get them started with things."

00:50:41.999 --> 00:50:49.289
So it's really nice to use those and that also I picked up from here definitely.

00:50:49.289 --> 00:50:50.614
Gayithri: Brilliant.

00:50:51.939 --> 00:50:56.649
Any challenges that you would like to share as you have been doing this work?

00:50:57.799 --> 00:50:58.299
Farhat: Yeah.

00:50:58.799 --> 00:51:04.869
Gayithri: I know you already mentioned a few of just from your personal space, but then anything?

00:51:05.009 --> 00:51:05.249
Farhat: Yeah.

00:51:06.619 --> 00:51:17.759
I think as I told you, no, this fact that, I have to really be mindful of the fact that I'm not teaching science.

00:51:21.299 --> 00:51:31.419
I cannot overwhelm them, the students with thick description or make the lectures boring or not even lectures.

00:51:31.419 --> 00:51:33.159
I mean, we have studios.

00:51:33.169 --> 00:51:33.889
So from nine to four, right.

00:51:33.909 --> 00:51:45.769
So it's like, how do I really help them to grasp things that I'm fascinated with and also that fascinates them, right?

00:51:46.339 --> 00:51:57.119
So I have to really think about how to make it very light, but also provocative but also interesting for them to really fascinate them.

00:51:57.409 --> 00:52:04.419
So those are challenges that I have to really work on to really make it light for them and also interesting.

00:52:04.879 --> 00:52:12.769
And another challenge that I face is because of this interdisciplinarity, I do not get enough resource materials to rely on.

00:52:14.889 --> 00:52:19.269
There are not like practical examples that I can see and say, "Oh yeah, this is really good.

00:52:19.339 --> 00:52:20.919
Can I try this in my class?"

00:52:21.389 --> 00:52:30.109
So those are some things that I find it challenging and at least these two is something that I can think of.

00:52:30.129 --> 00:52:30.399
Yeah.

00:52:31.209 --> 00:52:39.339
And really look not make it more boring, but use all different kinds of senses that I can to make it very interesting.

00:52:39.889 --> 00:52:53.459
And because these students are not like the traditional science students, but they are very creative students and they have left science behind because of the reason that it was boring.

00:52:56.459 --> 00:52:56.919
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:52:58.899 --> 00:52:59.369
Yeah.

00:52:59.909 --> 00:53:15.039
How do you see your work in relation to some of the social issues that are like either ongoing or that, social issues in India?

00:53:15.319 --> 00:53:24.233
How do you hope, or whom do you hope is benefiting from your work and how do you see your work contributing to some of those?

00:53:24.299 --> 00:53:34.729
Farhat: I think as I mentioned earlier as well, that I'm, frankly speaking, I have not been really engaging deeply in the social issues.

00:53:34.959 --> 00:53:42.199
I'm just learning more and more with respect to design and how design leads to social change.

00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:54.149
But more importantly, I've been exploring gender a lot, gender issues and how designers could be more sensitive to this issues when they're designing, right.

00:53:54.479 --> 00:54:06.709
So I really help students to use the gender lens when they are looking at when they come up with certain things, when they design, be it any content, be it an app or visual materials.

00:54:07.169 --> 00:54:09.629
I use that to say whether...

00:54:09.739 --> 00:54:19.649
So I'll share you an example of one of the students who came for testing one of the apps that he had designed.

00:54:20.349 --> 00:54:22.429
And he said Farhatm=, "Can you help me?

00:54:22.699 --> 00:54:24.359
Can you be a user test for me?"

00:54:24.359 --> 00:54:25.979
I said, "Yes, why not?"

00:54:26.579 --> 00:54:34.499
And what that app was about…How women….It was for women and how women could...

00:54:34.579 --> 00:54:39.539
He had designed an app to help women manage their time.

00:54:40.089 --> 00:54:43.739
And so family time, how much time are you spending with your family?

00:54:43.759 --> 00:54:48.009
How much time are you spending with your work, how much time?

00:54:48.009 --> 00:55:00.459
And it's like, when I first start a homepage that comes up is that, "Hey," it's like a pie chart, which tells me that, "Today I've spent only two hours with my family and more in my workplace."

00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:03.029
And then it tells me, it's like red in color.

00:55:03.099 --> 00:55:06.059
I said, "Wow, why does it have to remind me?

00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:14.459
Is this my mother-in-law, or is this my husband who's telling me that I have to spend so much time with my family?"

00:55:14.519 --> 00:55:15.759
I mean, who is this?

00:55:16.089 --> 00:55:21.199
Gayithri: Not spending time with my family is being made bad, just because of the colors that you choosing.

00:55:21.209 --> 00:55:21.589
Farhat: Yeah.

00:55:21.669 --> 00:55:26.869
Not only colors that you choose, but I know how much time I have spent with my family.

00:55:27.299 --> 00:55:32.889
I don't need another app to tell me that I have to spend time with my family.

00:55:33.589 --> 00:55:36.389
Who are you who is going to tell me to say that?

00:55:36.739 --> 00:55:42.269
Hey, it's like society dictating that, don't spend too much time out there.

00:55:42.299 --> 00:55:43.979
You have to spend time with your family.

00:55:45.849 --> 00:55:47.464
And then it was an eye opener for him.

00:55:47.669 --> 00:55:50.499
He said, "I'm so sorry, but this entire app is for women."

00:55:50.799 --> 00:55:52.119
I said, "Why not for men?

00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:54.359
I mean, why should it be for women only?

00:55:54.859 --> 00:55:58.699
Why are you not telling the man that he's not spending time with the family?

00:55:58.699 --> 00:56:01.359
Why are you telling me that I'm not spending time with my family?"

00:56:01.969 --> 00:56:03.749
So he said, "Now I cannot change it.

00:56:03.759 --> 00:56:06.769
This is my last iterations that I did."

00:56:06.829 --> 00:56:07.719
I said, "I don't know.

00:56:08.059 --> 00:56:10.289
I cannot say yes to it.

00:56:10.329 --> 00:56:12.109
I disapprove of this."

00:56:13.889 --> 00:56:22.849
These are some things, some, the lens that I use in my practice and also help student look at that.

00:56:22.859 --> 00:56:34.299
For example, one of the courses that I facilitated was to just analyze textbooks using the gender lens and visual materials that are there in textbooks, in NCERT textbooks.

00:56:35.129 --> 00:56:47.169
Those are used by children, but how certain activities are portrayed as being done by boys or certain by girls.So those are something that look at.

00:56:48.709 --> 00:56:51.429
I have been, as I told you, I've been facilitating this.

00:56:51.499 --> 00:56:55.399
I facilitated one science, technology and society.

00:56:55.649 --> 00:57:10.069
I'm really intrigued and I want to really develop that also for students, not to provoke them, but to really help them get a understanding of that.

00:57:10.489 --> 00:57:28.749
And lately, for example, I have found that, design, my understanding of design has changed a lot, and I have seen design can be empowering as well as it could be, taking away powers from you as well.

00:57:29.459 --> 00:57:43.159
So that I think is how design could bring about social change through equity and through empowering the users with participatory approaches is what's something that I truly...

00:57:43.979 --> 00:57:50.189
I mean, I do not practice that per se, but I believe that it can do that.

00:57:50.479 --> 00:57:50.749
Yeah.

00:57:50.749 --> 00:57:51.604
Gayithri: Brilliant.

00:57:52.459 --> 00:57:53.059
Beautiful.

00:57:53.549 --> 00:57:56.889
And I will bring this up later.

00:57:56.929 --> 00:57:58.479
I thought I'll just email you.

00:57:58.559 --> 00:57:59.339
I don't know if you...

00:57:59.549 --> 00:58:03.349
Have you read Design Justice by Sasha Costanza-Chock?

00:58:03.709 --> 00:58:05.369
Farhat: No, no, please share that with me.

00:58:05.419 --> 00:58:05.819
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:58:06.379 --> 00:58:13.959
The PDF is fully available online, and that is one of the books, which I think you will just be like, "Yep, yep.

00:58:14.149 --> 00:58:14.359
Yep.

00:58:15.369 --> 00:58:15.539
Yep."

00:58:16.359 --> 00:58:30.269
And she's I think at MIT, sorry, it's not even, she, it's they’re in MIT from what I remember, and they share, I think it is about a course that they designed.

00:58:30.609 --> 00:58:41.257
Very similar, like taking a participatory approach to about designing for a community and being very intentional about it from the very design of it.

00:58:41.739 --> 00:58:42.139
Yeah.

00:58:42.349 --> 00:58:43.089
And have-

00:58:43.959 --> 00:58:44.229
Farhat: Sorry.

00:58:44.229 --> 00:58:44.939
No, no, no.

00:58:44.979 --> 00:58:45.519
Have you heard?

00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:45.839
Sorry.

00:58:46.479 --> 00:58:48.549
Gayithri: No, no, no.

00:58:48.549 --> 00:58:50.079
Like IT for change, I'm not-

00:58:50.649 --> 00:58:51.109
Farhat: Yes, yes-

00:58:51.259 --> 00:58:51.499
Gayithri: Yes.

00:58:51.509 --> 00:58:51.729
Farhat: Okay.

00:58:51.829 --> 00:58:58.799
I applied for the job there, but they wanted somebody to know Kannada as the first language.

00:58:58.869 --> 00:58:59.919
Gayithri: Ah, yeah.

00:59:00.629 --> 00:59:00.839
Okay.

00:59:00.839 --> 00:59:00.919
Yeah.

00:59:01.069 --> 00:59:19.189
I don't know them, but I have heard a lot about them and it sounded like maybe it would be like a good fit for that app class to then be like, hear a few things, because I remember one of their examples having an app for women to track their menstrual cycle.

00:59:19.479 --> 00:59:19.959
Yeah.

00:59:20.339 --> 00:59:20.689
Farhat: Yeah.

00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:26.149
Gayithri: Even to be able to openly talk about this would be one thing, so.

00:59:26.149 --> 00:59:26.609
Farhat: Yeah.

00:59:27.069 --> 00:59:34.139
No, I think, I mean, I am influenced by some of the people's work here at Srishti.

00:59:35.279 --> 00:59:36.419
It's going to your next question,

00:59:37.159 --> 00:59:38.949
Gayithri: exactly that.

00:59:38.969 --> 00:59:39.769
Please take me there.

00:59:39.769 --> 00:59:41.849
What are the ongoing research,

00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:47.112
Farhat: I think, yeah, I think there is a group it's called Design Beku, and

00:59:47.112 --> 00:59:47.125
Gayithri: Design Beku?

00:59:47.125 --> 00:59:47.131
Farhat: Yeah.

00:59:47.131 --> 00:59:47.221
And it's a collective of designers and social activists and architects, who really work...

00:59:47.221 --> 01:00:11.949
Believe that design needs to be participatory and co-designed with the community because in order to bring social change and you have to trust the community for its knowledge that they bring, they come with, right.

01:00:12.339 --> 01:00:18.829
It's like you have to, in order to really bring about change, you have to empower them with the tools.

01:00:18.829 --> 01:00:24.009
And so they have been working on this and I am really influenced.

01:00:24.169 --> 01:00:31.519
And one of the in fact, colleagues, Naveen Bagalkot, he had given a TED Talk also on this.

01:00:31.829 --> 01:00:37.809
And quoting the similar example that you mentioned about an app for menstrual cycle.

01:00:37.959 --> 01:00:39.949
I think he also mentioned this one of the...

01:00:41.669 --> 01:00:45.429
So I think my understanding of design has changed a lot.

01:00:45.789 --> 01:00:51.219
A lot evolved because I had this assumption that designers are something like one individual.

01:00:51.259 --> 01:00:56.399
We are the saviors of the world and they have all the cerebral capacities with them.

01:00:56.879 --> 01:01:09.949
But coming here and working with real designers and seeing, especially the ones who work at the grassroots level to really see that, how it needs to be participatory and to understand this entire process of...

01:01:10.889 --> 01:01:20.249
And just to learning about the people, the community, the users, in their social context.

01:01:20.249 --> 01:01:25.819
And that it is, and acknowledging that it's very complex.

01:01:26.569 --> 01:01:32.279
Not denying the fact that it's not complex, acknowledging that it isn't very complex and really to...

01:01:33.089 --> 01:01:40.859
That can only be done, but if you empower them because they understand their needs better.

01:01:40.859 --> 01:01:40.889
Right.

01:01:41.149 --> 01:01:44.489
So I think that was quite revealing for me when I...

01:01:45.159 --> 01:02:10.729
And this group is really is something that I look up to, and I really appreciate whatever was going on in Homi Bhabha Centre where they're trying to include design as a general education, because I believe that it all stems from our attitude towards everything, towards any problem, any crisis.

01:02:11.059 --> 01:02:27.969
If I learn from my in general education, that I am not a problem solver or I cannot understand my own needs and there be somebody else, a designer with a creative ability coming and solving my problems.

01:02:29.169 --> 01:02:33.499
That attitude itself is catering to creation of this creative bunch.

01:02:33.509 --> 01:02:43.804
I mean, so I believe that design is ability, has to be taught, and it is a natural ability and it has to be there in school curriculum.

01:02:44.149 --> 01:02:56.359
I mean, the idea that we have this material crisis, we have this ecological crisis and it cannot be just solved by one particular designer sitting out there.

01:02:56.849 --> 01:03:06.540
And so, I mean, I was reading this article by this guy called Fuller and he was quoting this.

01:03:07.379 --> 01:03:09.919
It's about against design.

01:03:10.919 --> 01:03:12.799
And so he says-

01:03:13.309 --> 01:03:14.439
Gayithri: Is this Fuller Buckminster?

01:03:15.499 --> 01:03:16.319
Farhat: No, no, no.

01:03:16.499 --> 01:03:18.959
I think, let me just see what his full name is.

01:03:22.219 --> 01:03:24.609
His name is Jarett Fuller.

01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:25.709
Gayithri: Oh, okay.

01:03:26.889 --> 01:03:35.949
Farhat: And he is, it's a small essay that he's written and quite like, I really like the way that he says against design.

01:03:36.319 --> 01:03:44.349
And he says that, "A few decades ago designers said, Designers used to claim, that we need more leadership role.

01:03:44.349 --> 01:03:52.609
And if we get more leadership roles, we will create social change.'" Now you see designers more in the leadership role.

01:03:52.839 --> 01:03:53.789
Things are changing.

01:03:53.869 --> 01:03:58.399
Today we see more and more designers coming up in this and what has had happened?

01:03:58.899 --> 01:03:59.359
Nothing.

01:03:59.369 --> 01:04:05.059
There are more posters, there are more design thinking workshops, but no social change.

01:04:05.849 --> 01:04:13.189
So he's saying, because design today is like really is about maintaining the status quo.

01:04:13.859 --> 01:04:17.494
We do not challenge the status quo itself.

01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:21.529
Designers today are just really repeating what has already been done-

01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:22.329
Gayithri: Perpetuating-

01:04:22.329 --> 01:04:22.389
... Farhat: perpetuating that.

01:04:22.389 --> 01:04:22.419
Yeah.

01:04:22.419 --> 01:04:40.139
And today, the same capitalist society, which is saying, is actually creating those homelessness, all the social inequity are themselves saying that what creativity is.

01:04:41.129 --> 01:04:51.239
And so it's like they themselves are defining creativity and saying that designers are going to solve this and designers in turn just maintains this status quo.

01:04:51.239 --> 01:04:53.359
So things are not changing, right.

01:04:54.669 --> 01:05:01.162
So I think that was really a very beautiful article about how designers need to bring in social change by actually decolonizing it and democratizing it and trusting the communities and to take...

01:05:01.162 --> 01:05:01.214
Intervene creatively in their own ways.

01:05:01.214 --> 01:05:01.223
Yeah.

01:05:01.223 --> 01:05:01.231
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:05:01.231 --> 01:05:01.362
Any other project that comes to your mind that's currently going on that excites you?

01:05:01.362 --> 01:05:26.949
I know you mentioned Design Beku and is Beku like Beku Kannada?

01:05:26.949 --> 01:05:27.899
Just wanted to make sure.

01:05:27.919 --> 01:05:32.249
Farhat: I think one that I shared with you about Arzu Mistry.

01:05:32.249 --> 01:05:39.979
She's the one who I'm working with as at Srishti.

01:05:39.979 --> 01:05:47.009
She's a program Dean and for creative education and she has been working also with...

01:05:47.289 --> 01:05:57.659
But she is more of a facilitator and educator and I think what she does is she learns with the community and she also...

01:05:59.189 --> 01:06:10.939
It is her way is about facilitating livelihoods in communities and how the community works together.

01:06:11.439 --> 01:06:32.739
So I think that is very empowering, to really see that you go in and work with community and create livelihoods around them and what they could do to really empower the communities to see and realize what strength and skills they have and what they can do with it.

01:06:33.299 --> 01:06:37.979
So that is something that also I admire the work in Srishti.

01:06:38.219 --> 01:06:38.429
Yeah.

01:06:39.149 --> 01:06:39.489
Gayithri: Beautiful.

01:06:40.129 --> 01:06:40.569
Beautiful.

01:06:40.849 --> 01:06:50.909
Do you want to add anything about, especially given that we are still in the midst of pandemic, anything that has shifted for you for the work-

01:06:51.709 --> 01:06:52.129
Farhat: Yeah.

01:06:52.179 --> 01:06:52.789
I don't know.

01:06:59.669 --> 01:07:01.819
It's been very, very challenging, I think.

01:07:02.969 --> 01:07:21.399
I think what has happened is I believe there are some things which were, some skills, which were at the core as my practice has gone to the periphery and some which were at the periphery has become more at the core.

01:07:22.739 --> 01:07:23.929
Gayithri: Do you want to give an example?

01:07:23.929 --> 01:07:24.349
I'm very-

01:07:24.619 --> 01:07:28.109
Farhat: I mean, just an example of say technology use.

01:07:31.699 --> 01:07:37.599
It's, who cared about using technology or using but that's a skill that is required now.

01:07:38.419 --> 01:08:02.319
I mean, I'm just giving a very basic example of how something like a use of technology just using devices to really record things and work on teams, on Google Meet and that which was an interface has become more…not only just for me, but for, I think any other teachers, right.

01:08:02.349 --> 01:08:07.949
Those have become more at the center than actually facilitating learning.

01:08:08.819 --> 01:08:12.721
So I think that has been a great shift because of this and definitely, I think these are some things are for, what do you call that?

01:08:12.721 --> 01:08:12.754
I mean, you cannot change....

01:08:12.754 --> 01:08:12.780
I mean, unchange things.

01:08:12.780 --> 01:08:12.800
It's like that.

01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:12.846
I mean something which are permanent, so.

01:08:12.846 --> 01:08:12.872
Gayithri: There’s no going back.

01:08:12.872 --> 01:08:12.885
Farhat: Yeah, exactly.

01:08:12.885 --> 01:08:12.938
So I think that is, but yeah, definitely.

01:08:12.938 --> 01:08:12.997
It's also been empowering in some ways, at times.

01:08:12.997 --> 01:08:13.217
You are talking to me right now, right.

01:08:13.217 --> 01:08:13.441
At different times, right.

01:08:13.441 --> 01:08:13.944
But we wouldn't have perhaps thought about it, maybe.

01:08:13.944 --> 01:08:14.000
Yeah.

01:08:14.000 --> 01:09:08.299
We could have, but I'm saying, I can actually listen to lectures outside and be part of it, or maybe give webinars or listen to webinars or maybe invite professors from different cities and lectures.

01:09:08.299 --> 01:09:14.729
So I think it's also been empowering, but the fact is that, it's empowering for whom, is the biggest question, right.

01:09:14.939 --> 01:09:20.549
And it is who is being excluded and who is being included is the larger questions.

01:09:21.609 --> 01:09:21.999
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:09:22.269 --> 01:09:22.629
Yeah.

01:09:23.889 --> 01:09:34.339
Any work that you would like to see more of like moving forward in your domain, in your community, in your space?

01:09:35.229 --> 01:09:35.609
Farhat: Yeah.

01:09:35.629 --> 01:09:44.129
I think this fact that to really look at design more in the...

01:09:46.529 --> 01:10:10.779
I mean the work that Design Beku and these people do, I think I would want more designers also, who are coming into design research to take up those projects which are more community centric and not client based but more catered to the needs of the communities and work with them.

01:10:10.779 --> 01:10:20.189
I think I would personally would love to see more of those kind of work going on through design and bringing about changes through that.

01:10:20.189 --> 01:10:20.469
Yeah.

01:10:20.719 --> 01:10:22.299
Because design can be really powerful.

01:10:22.299 --> 01:10:31.349
It can be really powerful, but it can also be something that can take away powers from people and discriminating.

01:10:32.129 --> 01:10:32.849
Gayithri: True, true.

01:10:33.419 --> 01:10:37.599
Farhat: I've been using this article.

01:10:37.869 --> 01:10:43.659
I don't know whether you've read this, the Do Artifacts Have Politics by Langdon Winner?

01:10:43.679 --> 01:10:44.974
It's a very old article.

01:10:45.469 --> 01:10:46.089
Gayithri: Oh my god.

01:10:46.089 --> 01:10:46.329
Okay.

01:10:46.329 --> 01:10:47.469
This sounds very-

01:10:47.469 --> 01:10:48.549
Farhat: It's a very, very old article.

01:10:48.739 --> 01:10:55.169
I think in 1980s was Langdon Winner, Do Artifacts Have Politics and-

01:10:55.929 --> 01:10:57.109
Gayithri: Right now, yeah, go on.

01:10:57.109 --> 01:10:57.329
Go on.

01:10:57.569 --> 01:11:00.219
Farhat: And yeah, he gives examples of how.

01:11:00.789 --> 01:11:07.629
He doesn't mention design, but he gives examples from the architect world and architecture.

01:11:07.659 --> 01:11:18.689
And he says that the biases and the assumptions of the designers stems into their products that they make.

01:11:19.379 --> 01:11:28.369
And how it can be discriminating, how it can be racist in their product.

01:11:28.829 --> 01:11:30.449
And you don't even realize that.

01:11:30.779 --> 01:11:32.309
It becomes part of the system.

01:11:32.829 --> 01:11:32.899
Yeah.

01:11:32.899 --> 01:11:34.739
And how it can be discriminating.

01:11:34.739 --> 01:11:37.539
I think that was a very powerful article.

01:11:38.889 --> 01:11:44.219
I had used that with one of my course, but it was too heavy for them to digest.

01:11:45.029 --> 01:11:45.169
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:11:45.169 --> 01:11:45.369
I know.

01:11:45.369 --> 01:11:45.819
It's right here.

01:11:45.969 --> 01:11:46.439
I found it.

01:11:46.549 --> 01:11:47.649
Thank you so much for that.

01:11:48.829 --> 01:11:49.309
Yeah.

01:11:49.309 --> 01:11:51.609
So what would be your advice for anybody?

01:11:51.609 --> 01:12:00.679
Because you said, a lot of designers who think with the community towards making the world better for all of us.

01:12:00.939 --> 01:12:09.259
What would be your advice for any newcomer who may or may not be familiar with these contexts, especially in India?

01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:11.239
Farhat: I don't know.

01:12:11.259 --> 01:12:22.049
I mean, I personally don't feel that I have the expertise to really advice or education design educators or design educational researchers.

01:12:22.919 --> 01:12:44.359
But as I said that, that the idea is to really widen our understanding of design and to look at it not from this one designer perspective that he or she is going to solve the world's problem, but to really see that everybody has a capacity.

01:12:46.029 --> 01:12:47.909
I think we just have to change the lens.

01:12:48.009 --> 01:13:14.359
That's what my advice would be to really see the design and that has to be taught in the classrooms where we teach to see how design can be a way of giving more power and can be empowering as well as can be democratizing.

01:13:17.409 --> 01:13:21.059
And there is how do we remove this politics from design?

01:13:21.789 --> 01:13:30.579
So that, I think my, I don't know what advice to really give, but just to see that we have to use a different lens to look at design.

01:13:31.449 --> 01:13:32.619
I have changed my lens.

01:13:33.379 --> 01:13:33.968
I have, by being in practice.

01:13:33.968 --> 01:13:34.339
I don't know.

01:13:41.179 --> 01:13:41.409
Sorry.

01:13:41.409 --> 01:13:41.709
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:13:42.019 --> 01:13:42.919
Or maybe it is not...

01:13:42.969 --> 01:13:45.189
It's that there's always going to be politics.

01:13:45.229 --> 01:13:51.259
It could be even about what futures are you envisioning or what are you imagining and designing for?

01:13:51.259 --> 01:13:51.279
Yeah.

01:13:51.899 --> 01:13:52.209
Farhat: Yeah.

01:13:52.239 --> 01:14:02.609
I think that is true because even as designers, if we look at the futures, it's like, whose future are we talking about?

01:14:02.669 --> 01:14:08.339
And what futures are we imagining or reimagining?

01:14:08.369 --> 01:14:15.299
With this COVID, for example, you see that there has been the diversity is like, has been starkly in our face.

01:14:17.819 --> 01:14:19.079
It's like, has this...

01:14:20.879 --> 01:14:25.169
I mean, things which were we assuming we have shattered.

01:14:25.179 --> 01:14:28.939
And we now see that so many people were excluded, right.

01:14:30.579 --> 01:14:35.829
And when we are designing for the future, I hear a lot about future design for the future.

01:14:36.179 --> 01:14:39.419
When the future is so uncertain, what do we...

01:14:39.769 --> 01:14:41.349
How do we really envision, right.

01:14:41.499 --> 01:14:54.519
And of course we have to design for the future and we have to really look at, but I think we have to really look at the past as well as to what we have done to really see what kind of future we want, right.

01:14:54.579 --> 01:15:07.249
I mean, and if you say that, I believe that, yeah, of course, new designers should be looking at sustainability and social equity as a prime priority in their practice.

01:15:08.429 --> 01:15:20.789
That should be the core and the rest others, will come in, but designing for sustainability in terms of not just the ecologically sustainability, but sustainability in that, in every aspect.

01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:26.039
I think that is something that I would maybe say.

01:15:27.049 --> 01:15:40.249
And then really to see, ask more tough questions and hard questions as to whose future and what priority and whose priority are we going to take?

01:15:41.129 --> 01:15:41.439
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:15:42.329 --> 01:15:42.629
Yeah.

01:15:42.949 --> 01:15:44.469
Thank you so much.

01:15:44.569 --> 01:15:46.159
That was beautiful.

01:15:46.339 --> 01:15:55.929
And very empowering to actually have those thoughts, have those questions as we go back and continue to do our work in our world.

01:15:56.139 --> 01:15:57.949
Thank you so much Farhat.

01:15:57.999 --> 01:15:58.219
Farhat: Thank you guys.

01:15:58.349 --> 01:15:59.639
Thank you for listening to me.

01:15:59.639 --> 01:15:59.859
I don't know.

01:15:59.959 --> 01:16:01.615
I was just talking a lot, blah, blah.

01:16:01.789 --> 01:16:04.089
Gayithri: No, no, no.

01:16:04.089 --> 01:16:04.689
Not at all.

01:16:04.719 --> 01:16:05.289
Not at all.