WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript <www.descript.com>

00:00:03.300 --> 00:00:03.690
Radha: So

00:00:19.490 --> 00:00:47.513
I'm Radha.

00:00:47.513 --> 00:01:52.380
And I was trained as an environmental scientist, formally as in my PhD is in Environmental Science and Engineering from IIT Bombay.

00:01:52.890 --> 00:02:03.669
But the way I really see sort of where I am today, I think I call myself an educator.

00:02:03.900 --> 00:02:09.639
That's probably the best description of where I am today.

00:02:10.190 --> 00:02:15.830
And really just briefly on trajectory.

00:02:16.150 --> 00:02:22.499
I came into teaching and education as an educator much later in my career actually.

00:02:23.230 --> 00:02:26.130
I started off as a consultant, environmental consultant.

00:02:26.130 --> 00:02:28.460
Worked in the U.S.

00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:29.383
Worked in the Middle East.

00:02:29.383 --> 00:02:30.480
Worked all over the place.

00:02:30.480 --> 00:02:37.090
And then the switch to school teaching specifically.

00:02:37.559 --> 00:03:04.920
So I was very keen on school teaching because I really felt like given our education system and where it's taken all of us, and particularly my generation, I was quite convinced that, in a evangelical fashion, that the best way forward is to actually indoctrinate children to think differently.

00:03:06.320 --> 00:03:10.970
So frankly, I came into teaching at a much later point.

00:03:11.950 --> 00:03:18.000
About let's say, 12, 15 years ago maybe.

00:03:18.400 --> 00:03:19.899
Not even 15, less than that, yeah.

00:03:21.330 --> 00:03:22.160
So yeah.

00:03:22.160 --> 00:03:27.130
So that's how I came into environmental education if you'd like to call it that, yeah, yeah.

00:03:27.179 --> 00:03:28.100
Suraj: Okay, thank you.

00:03:28.100 --> 00:03:31.820
And right now you're visiting faculty at APU, is that right?

00:03:31.850 --> 00:03:32.359
Radha: That's right.

00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.330
I'm a visiting faculty at APU's School of Development.

00:03:36.109 --> 00:03:39.538
And I am one of the editors now of i wonder…, the University’s science magazine for middle and high school teachers..

00:03:39.570 --> 00:03:41.250
So that's a formal position.

00:03:41.830 --> 00:03:48.740
I also am a member of the Food Sovereignty Alliance.

00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:55.800
And working on a children's program with rural children as well.

00:03:55.920 --> 00:03:59.280
So that's really what I do yeah.

00:04:00.170 --> 00:04:00.361
Now a lot more of that, yeah.

00:04:00.361 --> 00:04:00.890
Suraj: All right.

00:04:02.190 --> 00:04:05.620
Well, I look forward to learning a little bit more about all of that.

00:04:05.660 --> 00:04:15.010
Before we start formally, I'll just say one more time that in this interview, we're simply interested in hearing about your perspectives, practices and experiences.

00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:22.719
In our larger project, we'll examine patterns and differences and how a variety of researchers have explored teaching and learning and diverse Indian contexts.

00:04:23.599 --> 00:04:27.520
All of this is a way to say don't feel that you need to speak on behalf of-

00:04:27.750 --> 00:04:29.479
Radha: No, absolutely, correct, yeah.

00:04:30.190 --> 00:04:36.750
Suraj: Importantly, we want to deeply consider a wide of socio cultural groups and center educational equity in this work.

00:04:36.970 --> 00:04:48.629
In this spirit, we actively seek perspectives from minoritized groups and connections to important social issues such as caste discrimination, LGBTQ+ wellbeing, sexism, religious discrimination, indigenous epistemology.

00:04:48.629 --> 00:04:50.260
I know you've written about and thought about.

00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:54.240
Ecological crises, obviously that's [inaudible] the interview today and decolonization.

00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:57.660
So let's get into formally.

00:04:57.840 --> 00:05:04.419
So we're really excited to hear about your work in science education, especially thinking about sustainability and climate change education.

00:05:04.859 --> 00:05:09.860
Let's start by talking about some of your recent work with students and educators around environmental education.

00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:15.840
Then later we'll talk about, return to the story that brought you there and some of your research more broadly.

00:05:16.090 --> 00:05:23.109
So can you tell us about some of what you've been working on currently or recently with students and teachers around environmental education?

00:05:24.760 --> 00:05:41.370
Radha: It's been assorted in the sense that over the last three years, I think, I've been dabbling with environmental education in different contexts and under different conditions.

00:05:41.740 --> 00:05:43.080
So let me just clarify this.

00:05:43.090 --> 00:05:44.940
So there have been projects.

00:05:45.340 --> 00:05:54.764
One, of course, that I have been working on consistently for a while is with this group called Gen Wise, which is based out of Bangalore and I am a mentor for them.

00:05:55.009 --> 00:06:01.597
And I actually run and conduct online as well as in person courses.

00:06:01.610 --> 00:06:03.780
This was online courses because of the last two years.

00:06:03.820 --> 00:06:15.290
But in 2019 and before that, we were doing offline field courses for children in the ages, typically middle school to high school students.

00:06:15.910 --> 00:06:24.390
And this was really, there's a particular track in the GenWise's education program which is called the Planetary Web of Life.

00:06:24.980 --> 00:06:33.150
And I was really designing and running, yeah, programs.

00:06:33.270 --> 00:06:36.610
The educational programs for children in the age group that I mentioned.

00:06:37.080 --> 00:06:46.269
It actually started off with the three week education program for middle to high school students.

00:06:46.330 --> 00:06:50.230
And I built that around Yuvah Noah Harari's book, Sapiens.

00:06:52.290 --> 00:07:03.250
So around that and I guess one could call it sustainability education, but I really like to think of it as a systems view of life, so to speak.

00:07:03.260 --> 00:07:05.949
So looking at life systemically.

00:07:08.179 --> 00:07:11.320
So that's one basket.

00:07:11.990 --> 00:07:19.980
The other is, I have begun collaborating with the People's Archive of Rural India [PARI] which is run by P Sainath.

00:07:20.650 --> 00:07:23.030
They have an education program, PARI education.

00:07:26.340 --> 00:07:27.680
So I've engaged with them for a while now.

00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:35.140
I just prepared one module or one unit as you might call it on biodiversity and conservation.

00:07:35.650 --> 00:07:40.920
And really the first one in is on classification, biological classification and diversity.

00:07:40.929 --> 00:07:43.580
And this is something that anybody can take.

00:07:44.049 --> 00:07:48.790
Okay, you can take it as a unit and go out and teach middle school children.

00:07:49.090 --> 00:07:53.273
It's almost like a lesson plan with enough details and all of that sort of thing.

00:07:53.273 --> 00:07:56.800
So that's PARI education and I will be collaborating with them as we go along.

00:07:57.469 --> 00:08:04.639
Then there is a group of young people who are from Ashoka University, from Azim Premji University, Bengaluru, undergrad students.

00:08:06.889 --> 00:08:14.420
So they were very keen during the pandemic to teach children.

00:08:15.179 --> 00:08:25.230
And because they're part of what is called ‘Yugma’ network which is a youth network inspired by Friday for Future and all of that.

00:08:25.340 --> 00:08:41.189
And they've done some stellar work on mobilizing support campaigns against the environmental impact assessment 2020 notification that the government of India had put out and various other actions ... And climate change is a big focus for them.

00:08:41.539 --> 00:08:49.030
So some of the young people on that were part of a workshop that I was doing on education.

00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:53.790
And so then they were very keen to go out and work with children.

00:08:54.540 --> 00:08:56.370
And so they designed programs.

00:08:57.920 --> 00:09:00.450
And I shared with them some of the programs that I do.

00:09:03.010 --> 00:09:07.746
So I've just been mentoring them on environmental education programs that they could take out and teach.

00:09:07.990 --> 00:09:09.450
And they've been preparing them.

00:09:09.880 --> 00:09:12.670
Whenever possible, I just provide some resources.

00:09:12.670 --> 00:09:16.229
But we have calls and we're discussing very actively.

00:09:16.650 --> 00:09:20.799
So that's a mentoring sort of role, in a sense.

00:09:23.740 --> 00:09:27.470
And then, of course, work that I do with rural children.

00:09:28.690 --> 00:09:33.359
And unfortunately, it's really been online the last two years.

00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:35.089
And then of course, I Wonder.

00:09:35.529 --> 00:09:40.210
And the last issue that we brought out was teaching as if the Earth matters.

00:09:40.870 --> 00:09:41.790
Issue six.

00:09:41.850 --> 00:09:43.720
And that's available for download.

00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:47.250
But the focus of that was teaching as if the Earth matters.

00:09:47.450 --> 00:09:57.880
So there's a very strong focus on the real challenges that we face in the present and in the future, yeah, yeah.

00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:00.450
So this is sort of, yeah, it's bit of a motley-

00:10:02.290 --> 00:10:21.760
Suraj: Yes, I appreciate hearing about all of that because it's quite interesting to think about how you're thinking about environmental education has translated into work with children, with educators and with activists in a very formal course type settings and these very informal activist settings.

00:10:21.760 --> 00:10:25.079
So I have several follow up questions that I'd like to take up with you.

00:10:25.580 --> 00:10:26.183
Radha: Sure, sure.

00:10:26.183 --> 00:10:33.470
Suraj: So it sounds like much of this work you are based in a rural context or think or work with rural children, you mentioned.

00:10:33.470 --> 00:10:35.090
Is that a fair characterization?

00:10:35.090 --> 00:10:37.170
And if so, why that choice?

00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:45.220
Radha: That's an interesting one because a significant amount of work over the last three years was with the urban children.

00:10:45.220 --> 00:10:49.690
But my interest, over the last four or five years.

00:10:49.870 --> 00:10:54.300
So I have to step back a little bit to tell you why my interest.

00:10:54.600 --> 00:11:10.170
I mean I have a very strong interest in rural children and government schools where there is very limited access to resource and limited access to really education.

00:11:10.560 --> 00:11:11.825
Quality education, right?

00:11:12.100 --> 00:11:20.000
So I have a deep interest in that, primarily driven by just the inequality issue, right?

00:11:20.040 --> 00:11:29.400
I mean that here are young people who given the same the opportunity would be able to contribute and for their own well being and growth.

00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:39.819
All it requires is a certain, is access to opportunities and how do we ensure that that is made possible?

00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:46.589
And if we don't do this for this generation than how are we going to get rid of inequity and discrimination?

00:11:47.150 --> 00:11:56.059
So it's really driven by a very strong, I guess, a sense of justice, so to speak.

00:11:56.059 --> 00:12:04.670
But also, there's another element of that is that knowledge which comes from lived experience of these children, right?

00:12:05.420 --> 00:12:12.399
And I've seen this up close when I was teaching at Rishi Valley which was from 2008 to 2015.

00:12:12.839 --> 00:12:13.299
I think-

00:12:13.699 --> 00:12:15.870
Suraj: You were teaching in a school, is it?

00:12:15.870 --> 00:12:24.960
Radha: In a school, Rishi Valley Education Centre, which is a Krishnamoorthy Foundation school and it’s in Andhra Pradesh near Madanpalle.

00:12:25.660 --> 00:12:34.329
And I was there from 2008 to 2015 and really was teaching environmental science to class 11 and 12.

00:12:34.329 --> 00:12:39.210
And then because it's a residential school, you'll end up working with students of all ages.

00:12:39.830 --> 00:12:44.110
But that is an urban community in a rural setting.

00:12:45.530 --> 00:12:45.960
You see?

00:12:46.660 --> 00:12:49.841
So I was doing a lot of work with the rural community on livelihoods and sustainability and it's a very ecologically fragile area.

00:12:49.841 --> 00:12:49.872
10 years of drought and this type of thing.

00:12:49.872 --> 00:12:59.309
And it's in Rayalaseema which is semi-arid.

00:12:59.309 --> 00:13:03.550
And it's a pastoralist community and small farmer community.

00:13:04.190 --> 00:13:10.880
And they, some of us engaged very closely with the local government school, okay?

00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:24.509
So that is when you, there were so many instances where you suddenly realized that is this legitimate lived experience knowledge, the knowledge based on that that these children have.

00:13:25.330 --> 00:13:43.520
And that is disregarded in a very strange way because it's literally, you come to school and you are studying from textbooks and a prescribed syllabus which completely ignores that information and knowledge that you come with.

00:13:44.020 --> 00:13:45.699
Which means it erodes your confidence.

00:13:46.049 --> 00:13:47.569
It erodes your identity.

00:13:48.260 --> 00:13:54.990
And it also erodes your capability to be resilient, right?

00:13:55.020 --> 00:14:01.079
I mean when you come from socio-ecological background and you know how to survive there, right?

00:14:01.410 --> 00:14:02.410
You have that knowledge.

00:14:02.420 --> 00:14:04.390
You have elders who have that knowledge.

00:14:04.880 --> 00:14:11.030
But you're in a school where curriculum tells you something completely different.

00:14:11.210 --> 00:14:19.600
So that's when I really began to think about what is really science and what is science education and what is education?

00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:30.249
So in a sense that was very, and now, and as I'm articulating to you, it always happens when you're articulating, there's more clarity in your own head.

00:14:31.069 --> 00:14:36.110
Suraj: Yes, that's always because it feels like we're along the journey with you.

00:14:36.640 --> 00:14:37.260
Radha: Correct, correct.

00:14:37.549 --> 00:14:55.940
Yeah, so that's where this, what you picked up about a very, or shall I say, subliminally, there is this need to focus on rural situations and yeah.

00:14:57.460 --> 00:14:57.940
Suraj: Okay.

00:14:58.889 --> 00:15:06.839
I had some other follow ups from your first thing, but let's continue with this a little bit because there's so much interesting stuff in what you said.

00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:20.810
So you asked this question about what is really science and what is really education and as something that this time working with these children and watching their own background and sense of identity be erased on this way.

00:15:21.070 --> 00:15:24.600
That I think would be really interesting for our audience to hear you talk more about.

00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:38.583
So as I was reading your article this morning, I was thinking about, I think it was an Albert Einstein that was something like the nature of the we won't find solutions through the same thinking that the things that brought out the problem.

00:15:38.630 --> 00:15:39.095
Radha: Exactly, exactly.

00:15:39.095 --> 00:15:40.630
Suraj: And it has been really interesting.

00:15:40.630 --> 00:15:48.250
And in our field of the learning sciences we have seen, there is some interest now, and particularly indigenous onto-epistemologies.

00:15:48.559 --> 00:16:09.990
Not only because there is a sense that they've been erased in education broadly, but particularly in this moment of climate catastrophe, we're seeing that these communities have really, not in these terms, but have really thought about these issues in ways that all of us would benefit from paying more attention to.

00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:18.360
But we seem to continue to insist on systematically disadvantaging in the day to day practice of science and advocacy as your papers regard you.

00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.243
So I guess I just said all the things that I was hoping you would say.

00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:26.030
So maybe you might talk a little bit more about how you feel.

00:16:26.030 --> 00:16:32.499
Radha: That's me, it's very interesting to hear you ... I mean I'm really glad that you read that paper and it resonated with you.

00:16:32.499 --> 00:16:34.920
That was very interesting to hear you say it.

00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:39.080
So actually, let's see.

00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:41.739
Let's, yeah, I think maybe take a couple of steps back now.

00:16:43.130 --> 00:16:54.040
The thing is that having come through the formal education system in India and having gone to premier institutions of study and all of that thing.

00:16:55.189 --> 00:17:00.489
One emerges, I mean for me personally, I emerged as a technologist, right?

00:17:00.719 --> 00:17:04.889
And not to, at all, diss that.

00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:12.290
Because that really helped understand, analyze research.

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:16.719
Build critical thinking.

00:17:16.739 --> 00:17:19.400
All of that happened because of that training, right?

00:17:21.290 --> 00:17:31.810
And also an appreciation of the importance of rationality and all of the things that science education teaches you.

00:17:32.139 --> 00:17:34.340
Studying science for a long period of time teaches you.

00:17:34.340 --> 00:17:36.159
And also doing research teaches you.

00:17:36.889 --> 00:18:01.770
Now what happens when you then, having been a scientist and technologist and actually applied a lot of the things that I studied and worked on during my higher education period and applying it on the field, gives you a sense of the power of science, right?

00:18:01.940 --> 00:18:08.020
And the power of translating scientific principles into technology and applying it.

00:18:08.020 --> 00:18:19.320
In the process, unless you really are examining that very carefully, you forget that science is actually a social endeavor.

00:18:20.860 --> 00:18:24.280
And that science happens in a social ecological context.

00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:27.810
And it is not in isolation.

00:18:27.870 --> 00:18:33.090
Though through schooling as well as through college, I do remember, you're a scientist.

00:18:33.090 --> 00:18:33.840
You are rational.

00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:34.879
You are objective.

00:18:35.580 --> 00:18:38.429
But as a human being and of which I discovered much later, of course.

00:18:38.790 --> 00:18:42.750
As a human being, your first response is an emotional response.

00:18:43.050 --> 00:18:50.439
You then rationalize that emotional response into action which is logical, based on evidence, all of that, right?

00:18:52.029 --> 00:19:05.969
But your first response, and particularly if you're looking at environmental issues or even social issues, it is an emotional response which can then get translated if you're an activist into action of a different kind.

00:19:06.229 --> 00:19:13.080
But when you're a scientist or an economist, it gets translated into a different kind of action.

00:19:14.270 --> 00:19:18.250
So that's one part of it.

00:19:19.360 --> 00:19:34.190
And then when you actually are with communities like I was and this was straight from being a technologist and a consultant into this environment without any intermediate period.

00:19:35.040 --> 00:19:41.869
And then you suddenly realize that it's not about problems and solutions.

00:19:42.309 --> 00:19:42.549
Okay?

00:19:42.940 --> 00:19:45.529
That's a very linear understanding.

00:19:46.070 --> 00:19:46.979
Here's a problem.

00:19:47.020 --> 00:19:49.840
Here's a solution, end of chapter, right?

00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:51.010
Here's a problem.

00:19:51.010 --> 00:19:53.690
Here's a technological ... Okay, so water for instance, right?

00:19:53.970 --> 00:19:54.720
There's a water issue.

00:19:54.929 --> 00:19:58.919
Okay, so how can I ensure that continuous good quality water supply will happen?

00:19:59.239 --> 00:20:07.369
Oh I could either dig the borewell well deeper or I could get a reverse osmosis unit, remove all the hardness water and make it available.

00:20:07.500 --> 00:20:12.570
So I'm thinking really more in terms of as a technologist to solve the problem.

00:20:13.620 --> 00:20:17.389
As opposed to here a situation or a condition.

00:20:18.909 --> 00:20:20.769
What is the response to that?

00:20:20.800 --> 00:20:24.190
And what change in condition is created by the response?

00:20:24.879 --> 00:20:28.900
And then it creates a new condition to which you have another response, right?

00:20:29.290 --> 00:20:30.330
And then it's a process.

00:20:30.330 --> 00:20:31.370
It's a bit of a journey.

00:20:32.269 --> 00:20:35.350
But in this process, technology is part of the solution.

00:20:37.320 --> 00:20:39.159
Technology is not the solution.

00:20:40.310 --> 00:20:46.120
And this I learned through conversations with these communities where you say, "Okay, so you have a water crisis.

00:20:46.120 --> 00:20:47.270
Okay, let's look at this.

00:20:47.270 --> 00:20:47.840
What do we want to do?

00:20:47.929 --> 00:20:48.639
What should we do?

00:20:48.639 --> 00:20:49.620
Et cetera, et cetera.

00:20:49.860 --> 00:20:50.920
What's your source of water?

00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:54.320
Why are you not-" You're asking the questions to solve the problem.

00:20:55.729 --> 00:20:58.620
But then you're also faced with many other issues.

00:20:58.650 --> 00:21:01.420
And we don't have a continuous water supply.

00:21:01.449 --> 00:21:03.400
We don't have piped water in our homes.

00:21:03.739 --> 00:21:10.409
We have had very little rain in the last, whatever, five to seven years.

00:21:14.300 --> 00:21:19.120
We have to petition literally but the panchayat in order to get water.

00:21:19.929 --> 00:21:26.659
Then the larger social policy issues, inequities in society.

00:21:26.670 --> 00:21:28.229
Why is this situation here?

00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:30.199
All that starts coming in.

00:21:31.090 --> 00:21:31.420
Right?

00:21:31.449 --> 00:21:32.479
Unlike in a city.

00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:34.789
The situation in a city is slightly different from this.

00:21:35.979 --> 00:21:40.409
Then you begin to understand that, okay, one needs to understand policy.

00:21:40.929 --> 00:21:43.569
One needs to understand why policies of a certain kind.

00:21:43.809 --> 00:21:46.479
One needs to understand the economics of the situation.

00:21:46.699 --> 00:21:48.920
One needs to understand social discrimination.

00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:50.399
One needs to understand all of this.

00:21:51.389 --> 00:21:57.280
And also, the solution does not ... Or the response does not come from the technologists.

00:21:57.909 --> 00:22:09.150
But it arrived from consulting, from understanding, from realizing that here is an urban community in a rural setting which has 24/7 water.

00:22:09.679 --> 00:22:16.620
And right outside, there are a bunch of pastoralists and small farmers who don't have 24/7 water and why is that?

00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.620
So access to resource, right?

00:22:19.840 --> 00:22:27.540
So then all of these realities then start coming into your understanding of an issue.

00:22:29.469 --> 00:22:35.049
And to me, that is when you realize the significance of what is sustainability?

00:22:36.570 --> 00:22:39.401
It's not about sustainable development and arriving at solutions.

00:22:39.401 --> 00:22:50.560
So in that sense, I think, it was ... And so I could take this into the classroom and that was the other benefit.

00:22:51.120 --> 00:22:56.929
Could take this whole experience into the classroom for students of class 11 and 12 to work on projects.

00:22:58.599 --> 00:22:59.613
Suraj: Tell us more about that.

00:22:59.790 --> 00:23:00.069
Radha: Yeah.

00:23:00.070 --> 00:23:09.720
And that became ... So for instance, as part of the ISC board which is what these students were doing, 11th and 12th, environmental science is an elective.

00:23:11.080 --> 00:23:11.280
Okay.

00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:13.770
So you'll have students, you'll probably have, what?

00:23:13.959 --> 00:23:18.209
Five to eight students who will sign up because you have different electives.

00:23:18.209 --> 00:23:21.379
And the school strength was about 360 students.

00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.980
So you have about that many ... It's a small school.

00:23:25.669 --> 00:23:30.329
So when they have that as part of their curriculum, they have to do a project, right?

00:23:30.870 --> 00:23:35.239
And so then with the first batch, I decided okay, it was just four girls.

00:23:35.649 --> 00:23:36.609
So then I said okay, you know what?

00:23:36.609 --> 00:23:38.369
We are going out into the village.

00:23:38.439 --> 00:23:39.530
We're going to go for a walk.

00:23:40.030 --> 00:23:41.070
And you'll decide.

00:23:41.129 --> 00:23:52.840
Each of you have to pick one topic, based on what you see, that you think is something you want to explore or you are really surprised by it.

00:23:52.919 --> 00:23:57.330
Or it disturbs you or whatever, right?

00:23:57.600 --> 00:23:58.589
So then they did that.

00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:04.080
One wanted to work with the shepherd's goatherds to understand what is that livelihood?

00:24:04.090 --> 00:24:05.919
What are the resources it depends on?

00:24:05.919 --> 00:24:07.600
What does a day in their life look like?

00:24:07.600 --> 00:24:08.580
What are the challenges?

00:24:09.500 --> 00:24:10.000
All of that.

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:11.260
All of those aspects.

00:24:11.729 --> 00:24:14.730
And then another one wanted to look at water challenges in the village.

00:24:14.750 --> 00:24:16.790
Another one, energy challenges in the village.

00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:27.009
So we got four different projects because they were surprised at ... So do all of them have electricity at home?

00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.199
And if not, why not?

00:24:29.679 --> 00:24:32.770
And some homes have small solar panels and how did come about?

00:24:33.310 --> 00:24:35.150
So all of those kinds of questions.

00:24:35.939 --> 00:24:36.416
Suraj: Good questions.

00:24:36.416 --> 00:24:39.910
Radha: Very good questions, yes, and because you're just walking.

00:24:40.449 --> 00:24:43.009
And the thing was just walk.

00:24:43.169 --> 00:24:43.800
Let's walk.

00:24:43.850 --> 00:24:44.669
Let's observe.

00:24:45.090 --> 00:24:46.419
Let's see what we make of it.

00:24:46.610 --> 00:24:48.320
Let's reflect on it when we come back.

00:24:49.050 --> 00:24:53.150
We'll probably sit under a tamarind tree and then reflect on it and then see what comes out of it.

00:24:53.600 --> 00:24:55.149
And then interviews with community.

00:24:55.490 --> 00:24:59.110
So that's how the project started developing for each batch of students.

00:24:59.709 --> 00:25:07.829
And then there are questions that young people ask, because they come from a certain background, right?

00:25:07.830 --> 00:25:11.739
From a certain social context and social economic context.

00:25:12.699 --> 00:25:21.090
So simple questions like so you don't have a tap in your house, why is that?

00:25:21.229 --> 00:25:23.239
And then those kind of real questions.

00:25:23.300 --> 00:25:25.830
And is this your own home?

00:25:26.340 --> 00:25:27.479
How did you build this house?

00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:33.800
So how do you have land but you have to still do labor in order to earn your living?

00:25:34.840 --> 00:25:36.500
So those kinds of questions.

00:25:36.500 --> 00:25:41.459
And why isn't enough for you if you are a farmer?

00:25:41.800 --> 00:25:44.790
Why do you need to hold multiple livelihoods?

00:25:46.219 --> 00:25:46.799
Right?

00:25:46.830 --> 00:25:49.939
So why isn't it just enough to have one job?

00:25:50.260 --> 00:25:51.320
But this is not a job.

00:25:51.340 --> 00:25:54.110
And then we started differentiating between job and livelihoods.

00:25:54.110 --> 00:25:58.520
And a certain richness, I think, for those children.

00:25:58.530 --> 00:25:58.889
Suraj: Yeah.

00:25:59.290 --> 00:26:02.659
Radha: Because they came back and they were like we'll never forget those things.

00:26:02.659 --> 00:26:03.724
I mean it's really informed.

00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:06.540
And it's informed what they've done with their lives, yeah.

00:26:07.629 --> 00:26:13.760
Suraj: And then you have this science that comes really contextualized socially, it's often historicized.

00:26:13.860 --> 00:26:17.730
Radha: Exactly, exactly.

00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:19.556
Suraj: Which then [inaudible]

00:26:19.556 --> 00:26:19.593
Radha: Exactly.

00:26:19.593 --> 00:26:19.929
And there's the process of science, right?

00:26:20.399 --> 00:26:22.429
That there is a history of science.

00:26:22.429 --> 00:26:23.599
I mean this is how it evolved.

00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:24.779
I mean there is a process.

00:26:25.230 --> 00:26:26.940
Because you are observing.

00:26:27.429 --> 00:26:30.439
You have become aware of the situation around you.

00:26:30.800 --> 00:26:36.040
You have recorded either through interviews or visually.

00:26:36.199 --> 00:26:38.979
So you have evidence of what is the situation around you?

00:26:39.639 --> 00:26:42.250
And then it hones those skills as well.

00:26:42.610 --> 00:26:46.019
And then documentation and then analysis of the documentation.

00:26:46.070 --> 00:26:54.544
Inferring from your ... So the process of science and the practice of science can be very much embedded in projects like this as well.

00:26:54.544 --> 00:27:00.530
And at the same time, you suddenly realize, so I remember one of my students saying, "this is economics, no?

00:27:00.530 --> 00:27:02.499
I mean it's not environmental science."

00:27:02.510 --> 00:27:04.469
So we're like, "Okay, why is that?

00:27:04.469 --> 00:27:05.940
Let's talk about that a little bit."

00:27:07.419 --> 00:27:08.409
And then you begin to…

00:27:08.409 --> 00:27:08.944
Suraj: Oh I love that.

00:27:09.120 --> 00:27:17.544
Radha: Yeah, and then you begin to see these boundaries dissolving and it's wonderful to be with young people who are discovering that.

00:27:17.790 --> 00:27:23.079
It comes to them because rather than you saying oh this is the discipline of this…

00:27:23.330 --> 00:27:25.050
Suraj: Yeah, yeah.

00:27:25.159 --> 00:27:29.325
Yeah, I think it's quite fascinating also to think about.

00:27:29.490 --> 00:27:32.639
The last interview I sat with was with Chayanika Shah.

00:27:32.729 --> 00:27:33.699
I don't know if you-

00:27:33.779 --> 00:27:34.189
Radha: Oh Chayanika, of course.

00:27:34.389 --> 00:27:35.530
She was in IIT Bombay.

00:27:35.530 --> 00:27:37.480
Yeah, yeah, she has experience, yes.

00:27:37.710 --> 00:27:42.750
Suraj: Yeah, we had sat with her to talk about LGBTQ+ justice and feminism.

00:27:42.750 --> 00:27:50.610
And it was quite interesting because that same kind of perspective on science in the social world that you're kind of sharing.

00:27:50.610 --> 00:27:55.270
But came through it from this feminist, feminist point theory of science.

00:27:55.530 --> 00:27:59.260
And then here we see it through this context of sustainability and climate change.

00:27:59.260 --> 00:28:05.840
So it's really interesting how when you try and bring these things to bear on solving persistent problems, you necessarily, not matter the questions.

00:28:05.840 --> 00:28:06.019
Radha: Absolutely, yeah.

00:28:07.430 --> 00:28:11.040
Suraj: So this seems like a good place to clarify a little bit about our terminology.

00:28:11.080 --> 00:28:21.130
So in that article, you make this distinction or try to unmake this distinction between sustainability and sustainable development.

00:28:21.139 --> 00:28:33.240
So it would be helpful to think like this kind of work you're doing, do you like to talk about it as sustainability education or environmental education, science education broadly, climate education, something else.

00:28:33.700 --> 00:28:36.750
What kinds of words do you like to use to describe these projects?

00:28:39.070 --> 00:28:44.480
Radha: I just use the word education because I have so much difficulty in slotting them.

00:28:44.490 --> 00:28:46.609
I mean it's a bit of a quandary for me.

00:28:46.790 --> 00:28:51.930
So I just think that, okay so I'm going to give you a bit of an anecdote.

00:28:51.930 --> 00:28:51.966
Suraj: You do, I love that.

00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:59.170
Radha: So there was this conversation, yes, it was this conversation I was having with a very dear friend who's now in the U.S.

00:28:59.770 --> 00:29:04.600
But he was, at that time, a senior professor at the university.

00:29:04.600 --> 00:29:10.340
And we were talking about sustainability and a Masters in Development or whatever, whatever.

00:29:10.990 --> 00:29:18.266
And so I said, "Why do you have to have a specialization in sustainability and a Masters in Development program?"

00:29:19.510 --> 00:29:20.454
"Well, what do we do?"

00:29:20.510 --> 00:29:21.060
I said, "No.

00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:28.090
I guess one should plan it as you have a Masters program and whatever, Development.

00:29:29.050 --> 00:29:31.670
You might start with a specialization in sustainability.

00:29:33.060 --> 00:29:43.729
But your plan should be that five years down the line, whatever Masters in Development you're doing, sustainability has to be embedded in it."

00:29:43.749 --> 00:29:47.259
So you don't have to have it as a specialization and a Masters in Development.

00:29:48.629 --> 00:29:55.789
All discourse, conversation, understanding of development has to stem from sustainability.

00:29:56.709 --> 00:29:59.459
So in a sense you have to dissolve it into that.

00:29:59.850 --> 00:30:00.060
Right?

00:30:00.060 --> 00:30:09.750
So then I'm not saying that oh this is a Masters in Development with specialization in public policy, with specialization in sustainability, with specialization in x, y, z.

00:30:09.750 --> 00:30:16.420
So I mean this was something that I just, I couldn't get my head around.

00:30:16.420 --> 00:30:18.590
And I was like so why are we doing this?

00:30:18.710 --> 00:30:21.890
So he laughed and said, "That's not happening.

00:30:21.890 --> 00:30:23.850
So we have to do this."

00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:33.324
But the thing is that it's about what education should be, right?

00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:35.050
I mean it should be about.

00:30:35.320 --> 00:30:47.733
So I wanted to just add one point to the previous thoughts that we were talking about where you talking about Chayanika’s LGBTQ situation and this whole thing that we were talking about.

00:30:47.733 --> 00:30:53.190
Another element that actually emerged very strongly with these students was the element of caste.

00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:55.294
Suraj: Tell us about that.

00:30:55.294 --> 00:31:05.120
Radha: Because you have in the communities around there, both at the school and also in other work that I have done in other states like Andhra Pradesh and Telangana.

00:31:05.120 --> 00:31:08.209
Caste, of course, is deeply embedded in our system.

00:31:08.209 --> 00:31:12.970
I mean a lot of people in urban areas think there is no caste in urban areas which is not true.

00:31:13.610 --> 00:31:16.310
But in rural areas, it's much more in your face, right?

00:31:16.310 --> 00:31:21.360
Because you even have villages which are called Dalit Wada which are outside the main village?

00:31:21.360 --> 00:31:21.490
Right?

00:31:21.520 --> 00:31:25.099
Even today you have it in Andhra Pradesh and Telangana and many other places in the country.

00:31:25.600 --> 00:31:36.780
So now when you are sitting with a group of people who are part of one village.

00:31:36.810 --> 00:31:41.460
And then you're talking there and then you move to the other one and then they ask you, "Oh where did you come from?"

00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:42.373
And then you tell them you were there.

00:31:42.410 --> 00:31:44.600
They said that was a Dalit village.

00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:49.360
So then the questions the students ask why do they have to mention that, right?

00:31:49.879 --> 00:31:56.519
So then we started talking about how even today, a person of another caste will not eat from a Dalit home.

00:31:56.910 --> 00:32:00.999
So then we went back to some of the Dalit households and we started talking about it.

00:32:01.189 --> 00:32:02.350
And they said, "Yes, that is true.

00:32:02.879 --> 00:32:04.029
They won't eat in our homes."

00:32:04.760 --> 00:32:09.500
And of course now, there was one person who said this.

00:32:09.510 --> 00:32:13.479
He said, "There are two places where caste gets dissolved."

00:32:13.540 --> 00:32:13.960
I said, "Where?"

00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:16.730
He said, "When we go and deliver milk.

00:32:17.280 --> 00:32:19.949
So these milk collection centers."

00:32:19.949 --> 00:32:25.129
He said, "Nobody cares if it's a Dalit family's cow or a buffalo.

00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:31.510
It's all going into the same larger pool which then gets pasteurized or whatever."

00:32:31.870 --> 00:32:33.705
He said, "But it's coming from my house, right?

00:32:33.850 --> 00:32:35.400
And I'm Dalit."

00:32:35.450 --> 00:32:36.769
He said, "That is one place."

00:32:36.860 --> 00:32:54.729
And he said, "And the other place is when we have to put our-" He said, "Earlier, when he was younger-" He said, "We didn't even have access to water first because you can't go to the same place where everybody's going."

00:32:55.310 --> 00:33:02.970
But he said, "Today, whether you're Dalit or whether you're not Dalit, you have to stand in that queue to fill your pot from the tanker."

00:33:04.639 --> 00:33:06.749
He said, "That's a bit of a levelizer."

00:33:08.020 --> 00:33:12.369
I mean the point is if it's about this idea of resource.

00:33:12.470 --> 00:33:15.960
And who owns resource and on what basis do they resource?

00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:19.720
Whether it's land or whether it is access to water or anything, right?

00:33:21.120 --> 00:33:22.760
I mean access to any resource.

00:33:23.629 --> 00:33:41.590
So I think the close, the very tight link between access to resource for survival and caste and class in India.

00:33:42.470 --> 00:33:49.830
I think those things became very evident for many of the students who were working on these projects that it's so deeply embedded.

00:33:49.860 --> 00:33:51.479
And even something like eating.

00:33:52.860 --> 00:33:54.429
You can't.

00:33:54.479 --> 00:34:00.737
And then, of course, we then moved on to diet and what kind of food and how are they different and why are they different and all of that sort of thing.

00:34:00.737 --> 00:34:01.260
But yeah.

00:34:01.530 --> 00:34:02.179
So caste.

00:34:02.590 --> 00:34:04.020
And I think that so yeah.

00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:16.819
Suraj: I'm glad that you brought our attention to caste because I think these questions, of course, necessarily have this ... If you're to contextualize science socially without this lens towards disparate impact, you've missed something.

00:34:16.819 --> 00:34:27.183
And I think it, you know you've pointed out that, of course, the gap between those who are the cause of ... I don't want to cause.

00:34:27.183 --> 00:34:30.719
Radha: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:35.260
Suraj: The cause of these emissions and the people who are most affected by these changes is quite a large gap.

00:34:36.330 --> 00:34:36.420
Radha: Absolutely.

00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:42.279
Suraj: And arguably part of why action has not been taken at the scope that is arguably necessary.

00:34:42.649 --> 00:34:44.304
Radha: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

00:34:44.809 --> 00:34:54.460
Suraj: So please feel free to keep raising some of those issues around caste and equity as we continue our conversation because I think it's really fundamental to what it means to contextualize science education.

00:34:55.429 --> 00:35:02.536
So I'm trying to think where I want to go from here because I have many options ahead of me.

00:35:02.749 --> 00:35:11.529
I think, so we did talk a little bit, that question was around what we call this environmental education, sustainability education.

00:35:11.550 --> 00:35:12.919
Radha: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:19.460
Suraj: And so your background is in science and then now you're in development, programs.

00:35:19.470 --> 00:35:21.330
But so much of your work is in education.

00:35:21.330 --> 00:35:33.210
So it might be helpful to just hear for a little bit about what field or research community you tend to write towards or if there's theories, thinkers, schools of thought that really influence your thinking as you decide.

00:35:33.229 --> 00:35:34.980
Radha: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:40.840
When I saw that question, I was thinking huh I really ... So there are two things that I'd like to say here.

00:35:41.019 --> 00:35:44.849
One is that in terms of thinkers, et cetera.

00:35:45.229 --> 00:35:53.950
So one, I think a very profound ... So before that, of course, before I really came formally into education.

00:35:54.669 --> 00:36:13.760
I mean after I came in formally into education through the school et cetera, Paulo Freire, I read him as soon as I ... So that really left a very deep impact on my understanding of how does science work in this milieu, right?

00:36:14.430 --> 00:36:16.550
And how do you actually get it to work in this milieu.

00:36:16.979 --> 00:36:18.380
So Freire is one.

00:36:18.390 --> 00:36:34.170
But then from when I think about my understanding and my now over zealous emphasis with students on a systems view of life, that really comes from Fritjof Capra's book, Systems View of Life.

00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:41.649
And the course that he taught which I actually took which is about a 12 week course called the Systems View of Life.

00:36:41.689 --> 00:36:49.029
And that really allowed me to actually formalize in my head the framework.

00:36:50.129 --> 00:36:58.130
I did struggle a little bit with this idea of how do you actually, what is the kind of framework that you could teach with?

00:36:59.670 --> 00:37:06.509
So I used to keep them looking at it as we need to look at the world around us almost like a spider web, right?

00:37:06.709 --> 00:37:10.605
So we're just woven together in just this web as opposed to a linear thing, right?

00:37:10.729 --> 00:37:16.300
I mean that idea was very much a part of my understanding.

00:37:16.300 --> 00:37:20.729
But how do you articulate it into a formal framework of education, right?

00:37:20.999 --> 00:37:46.839
And so the systems view of life and the nested systems approach where you're looking at the individual and education, or the practice of the individual being embedded really in the social and political system, economic system, which is then embedded in ecological system and then the larger Earth system and the Earth system processes.

00:37:47.340 --> 00:37:56.090
So that is one thing, I think, which has really informed my subsequent articulations and understanding.

00:37:56.090 --> 00:38:00.790
Suraj: And maybe here briefly you can, I mean you've just did this, but maybe you can just [inaudible] too.

00:38:01.399 --> 00:38:06.957
You can tell it what is systems view of life and how that is different from a more [inaudible]

00:38:06.957 --> 00:38:07.868
?

Radha: Right, right.

00:38:07.868 --> 00:38:21.839
So what has happened is that, of course, ever since the 70s, I think, at ... I mean there's a fundamental difference between environmental movements in the west and in India, right?

00:38:22.059 --> 00:38:32.999
I mean in India and also in many countries in Africa, the environmental movement actually emerged as a threat to livelihoods and to very existence in that sense, right?

00:38:33.370 --> 00:38:37.340
So it actually emerged from a struggle for livelihoods and resources at that level.

00:38:37.340 --> 00:38:38.969
And that's how the movements began.

00:38:38.970 --> 00:38:43.050
So they were social movements and ecological movements were very closely tied.

00:38:43.580 --> 00:38:47.470
In the west, the environmental movement had a very strong ecological focus.

00:38:47.550 --> 00:38:54.489
And it was about wilderness and separation of the humans from the pristine wilderness and all of that.

00:38:54.490 --> 00:38:56.500
Like John Mears writings and you know all of that.

00:38:56.500 --> 00:38:59.090
So there is a very distinct difference.

00:38:59.380 --> 00:39:15.360
Now that understanding of what do ecological movements and what do environmental movements and, therefore, environmental education, that there is a social, ecological context to that from an Indian perspective.

00:39:16.720 --> 00:39:18.739
So that is one level, right?

00:39:19.029 --> 00:39:29.889
Now implicit in that is an understanding that you don't look at the environment as air, water, soil.

00:39:29.950 --> 00:39:31.579
You don't look at it like that, right?

00:39:32.600 --> 00:39:44.390
Now in the early days of the movement and also in India, scientists were looking at it as air quality, water quality, solid waste, cleaning.

00:39:44.399 --> 00:39:47.560
Like for example, the superfunds in the U.S.

00:39:47.930 --> 00:39:53.029
which were used to clean up waste dumps where toxic waste were dumped, et cetera.

00:39:53.410 --> 00:40:09.769
So until you understood the environment as a multimedia, integrated of an entity, we always approached it as these individual pieces that need be dealt with, right?

00:40:10.219 --> 00:40:15.760
And then of course, you discover that hey I cleaned this and I'm actually producing something else somewhere else [inaudible] you look at it.

00:40:16.720 --> 00:40:19.160
And so that was the kind of approach.

00:40:19.160 --> 00:40:29.689
And then slowly from there people began to realize that okay, we need to really take a more integrated and the word holistic started coming into our vocabulary, right?

00:40:30.689 --> 00:40:45.269
Now all of that moved on, but there wasn't any clear articulation of what one could think of as it was very hard to think.

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:51.979
There wasn't a concrete framework through which one could actually look at something and say, "How do I really understand it?

00:40:52.019 --> 00:40:56.109
What does it really mean when I say if I clean air, it becomes water.

00:40:56.109 --> 00:40:59.660
And then after dealing with that, what does all of this actually mean and how do you?"

00:40:59.660 --> 00:41:00.490
Suraj: Yeah, it's overwhelming.

00:41:00.490 --> 00:41:01.810
It's either just [inaudible] or everything.

00:41:01.810 --> 00:41:01.910
How to scope out [inaudible]

00:41:01.910 --> 00:41:01.930
?

Radha: Exactly.

00:41:01.950 --> 00:41:09.960
Yes, and also to escape from [inaudible] but everything is connected.

00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:13.206
Well, yeah, it is, but I mean really how you know.

00:41:13.430 --> 00:41:15.399
If you just say that, how the hell where do you approach?

00:41:15.769 --> 00:41:16.504
Where do you start, right?

00:41:16.899 --> 00:41:17.300
Suraj: Right.

00:41:17.430 --> 00:41:20.408
Radha: But then we had all these other frameworks.

00:41:21.678 --> 00:41:26.588
The planetary boundary framework, the doughnut framework when people really began to realize that okay, we're pushing really hard.

00:41:26.598 --> 00:41:28.148
Climate change is a reality.

00:41:28.798 --> 00:41:31.198
So then you looked at Earth processes.

00:41:31.198 --> 00:41:34.628
And this comes from Earth scientists and chemists actually.

00:41:35.798 --> 00:41:40.688
Like the idea of bio geochemical cycles, the carbon cycle, nitrogen cycle, water cycle.

00:41:40.688 --> 00:41:45.868
And then you have the cyclic approach, which also has a very strong ecological focus to it.

00:41:46.538 --> 00:42:02.878
So then the Stockholm Environmental Institute and chemists and geo chemists came out with the planetary boundary framework which basically said there are these nine Earth processes and we have to function within a safe limit for each of these processes.

00:42:02.878 --> 00:42:04.016
And we are already breaching several of these boundaries.

00:42:04.016 --> 00:42:22.948
But even that didn't really bring the social, ecological connections because a lot of people found frameworks like that very dense and having a tough time.

00:42:22.948 --> 00:42:24.648
How do people arrive at these estimates?

00:42:24.658 --> 00:42:30.558
It just was not tangible for them to really understand what is this thing, right?

00:42:32.128 --> 00:42:38.628
But going back, if you take your understanding of what a system is, right?

00:42:40.318 --> 00:42:46.718
Where you have these relationships, something comes in and then causes change.

00:42:46.768 --> 00:43:01.678
And there are these multiple parts which are related, which have relationships, which when they are together in a certain relationship, function in a way that is distinct from each part functioning, right?

00:43:02.498 --> 00:43:06.068
So then that whole thing about the whole is much greater than the sum of its parts.

00:43:10.028 --> 00:43:12.658
And then you look at a natural ecosystem.

00:43:12.678 --> 00:43:15.868
I'm just saying natural, but really you look at the ecosystem around you, right?

00:43:16.698 --> 00:43:25.518
If you look at that, you begin to see that there are so many intricate connections, dependencies, inter dependencies.

00:43:27.128 --> 00:43:32.828
What one may look at as predator prey relationship , but actually there is a dependency there.

00:43:33.628 --> 00:43:36.398
There are different kinds of associations and relationships.

00:43:37.008 --> 00:43:43.363
And it's not just between living system and living creatures, but also with what we call nonliving, right?

00:43:44.008 --> 00:43:50.898
For instance, is soil living or nonliving?

00:43:50.898 --> 00:43:50.913
Difficult to say, right?

00:43:50.913 --> 00:43:50.920
Suraj: Is what?

00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:50.924
Soil?

00:43:50.924 --> 00:43:50.927
Radha: Soil.

00:43:50.927 --> 00:43:51.238
Is soil living or nonliving?

00:43:51.248 --> 00:43:53.538
Difficult to say because there is life in it.

00:43:54.248 --> 00:43:55.204
Suraj: I thought you said oil.

00:43:55.204 --> 00:43:55.808
And that was a very different [inaudible] but actually the same question-

00:43:56.978 --> 00:43:58.088
Radha: Well that's true.

00:43:59.248 --> 00:44:00.638
After all, oil - it's fossils, right?

00:44:01.818 --> 00:44:06.658
So then now how do you really then understand it a little better?

00:44:07.128 --> 00:44:18.528
So if you were to take this ecosystem understanding and place it in the context of the planet, and place it in a socio ecological, like we said in the beginning, science is a social endeavor.

00:44:18.988 --> 00:44:21.788
And we are creatures of social ecological systems.

00:44:21.788 --> 00:44:28.158
We are not separate from, I mean it's so hard to really even think of separating the two, right?

00:44:28.598 --> 00:44:30.638
But we do it for our convenience, right?

00:44:30.638 --> 00:44:30.958
Suraj: Yeah.

00:44:31.508 --> 00:44:39.248
Radha: So then how do you understand this overwhelming, range of these relationships and where do I begin?

00:44:39.258 --> 00:44:40.278
And it's all fine.

00:44:40.928 --> 00:44:44.778
So then I liked this systems view framework.

00:44:44.778 --> 00:44:56.948
It appealed to me because it allowed me to actually have a schematic to show that here is, if you have a nested system, so that means one inside the other.

00:44:57.218 --> 00:44:59.428
A bit like the Russian matryoshka dolls.

00:44:59.558 --> 00:45:00.928
You open one and there's another one.

00:45:00.928 --> 00:45:03.118
You open one, there's ... So literally that, right?

00:45:03.118 --> 00:45:11.808
I mean the individual or the household is embedded in the larger system which is not independent.

00:45:11.908 --> 00:45:15.238
Which is also dependent ultimately on Earth processes.

00:45:15.488 --> 00:45:22.738
But the ecological, social, economic, political, ecological connection, how do you show that?

00:45:23.808 --> 00:45:31.978
But if you were to show it as this one inside the other inside the other inside the other, then you suddenly see oh yeah, that's true.

00:45:32.358 --> 00:45:33.708
There is all these relationships.

00:45:34.148 --> 00:45:44.008
So let me move forward with an understanding that the political system is a creation of the social system.

00:45:45.588 --> 00:45:46.948
As is the economic system.

00:45:46.948 --> 00:45:50.078
Those are constructs of human beings, right?

00:45:50.458 --> 00:45:57.958
But the ecological system and the Earth system are realities of a very different kind.

00:45:58.308 --> 00:45:59.498
They are not your constructs.

00:45:59.498 --> 00:46:01.808
They are not constructs of the human mind.

00:46:03.368 --> 00:46:04.308
They are a given.

00:46:04.788 --> 00:46:06.548
There are natural laws that govern it.

00:46:07.258 --> 00:46:09.008
But I can change the political system.

00:46:09.978 --> 00:46:11.578
It's like what Harari says.

00:46:11.868 --> 00:46:18.358
But you all know Harari and Fritjof Capra, I think my understanding of life is kind of sorted.

00:46:18.828 --> 00:46:25.538
But I mean it's saying that there is something that's reality.

00:46:26.078 --> 00:46:34.208
And then there is other things that are human constructs which somehow we have begun to believe is also a law of nature.

00:46:34.258 --> 00:46:34.668
It's not.

00:46:37.328 --> 00:46:43.348
So that clarity emerged from this understanding of a systems.

00:46:43.488 --> 00:46:57.628
Meaning you look at life like an ecosystem, but a natural ecosystem, when you look at ecosystems, you're looking at it as creatures other than the human.

00:46:58.208 --> 00:47:08.128
But if you were to look at human and the non human environment around you as one unit, how do you look at it?

00:47:08.398 --> 00:47:20.138
Because if you were to take that same understanding of an ecosystem, prey predator relationships, neutralism, symbiosis, parasitism, all that exists in human society.

00:47:20.138 --> 00:47:25.488
So can we understand that and then understand our social system, our political system.

00:47:26.128 --> 00:47:30.778
Then what happens is when you really get to it, you look at your food system, okay?

00:47:31.808 --> 00:47:34.798
I'm really veering off so you'll have to indulge me a little bit here.

00:47:35.978 --> 00:47:45.198
So it's like, for instance, with the grade eight students in Rishi Valley and with the grade eight students of the government school nearby, we did a project called Where Does My Food Come From?

00:47:46.108 --> 00:47:47.388
Simple question, right?

00:47:47.618 --> 00:47:52.208
But when the kids started exploring, they were like oh my God.

00:47:52.208 --> 00:47:53.188
This is so complex.

00:47:53.188 --> 00:47:56.308
Because we wrote down a menu.

00:47:56.368 --> 00:47:58.538
We listed the food that we eat every day.

00:47:58.808 --> 00:48:00.068
And then we said let's break it down.

00:48:00.098 --> 00:48:01.058
Let's get the recipes.

00:48:01.068 --> 00:48:02.208
Let's look at the ingredients.

00:48:02.238 --> 00:48:04.188
Let's find out where the ingredients come from.

00:48:04.708 --> 00:48:05.558
Who grows them?

00:48:05.558 --> 00:48:06.328
Where do they grow?

00:48:06.328 --> 00:48:08.128
Under what conditions do they grow?

00:48:08.538 --> 00:48:10.218
What is needed to grow them?

00:48:10.248 --> 00:48:11.858
What kind of weather do they need?

00:48:11.888 --> 00:48:13.158
What are seasonal foods?

00:48:13.708 --> 00:48:24.148
And then you suddenly discover that and says Gosh, like why do we have chocolate and mozzarella cheese from Bangalore for this urban set of kids?

00:48:24.578 --> 00:48:33.688
And then you shared your information with the rural kids and then you suddenly realized that their footprint is actually only up to the 25 kilometer away town.

00:48:34.048 --> 00:48:39.408
And mine is like all the way to Bangalore or the dark chocolate which comes from I don't know where, right?

00:48:40.278 --> 00:48:40.588
Suraj: Yeah.

00:48:40.958 --> 00:48:41.358
Radha: Okay.

00:48:41.588 --> 00:48:45.458
So then you suddenly begin to think that oh this is exhausting.

00:48:46.218 --> 00:48:51.808
And so to be more sustainable and if I want to keep a smaller footprint, I should be local, eat local vegetables.

00:48:52.338 --> 00:48:53.868
But oh that is so boring.

00:48:53.878 --> 00:48:56.398
It's only gourds and tomatoes.

00:48:56.398 --> 00:48:58.548
So that is some realities.

00:48:58.588 --> 00:49:01.478
But then we started understanding the idea of trade off.

00:49:04.948 --> 00:49:15.438
And for young children who are about, say, 13, 14, the idea of trade off is a very interesting one because they think it's a compromise and not a great thing.

00:49:15.438 --> 00:49:21.388
But then you begin to then talk about other issues in life and you say actually, everything you do in life is a trade off.

00:49:21.388 --> 00:49:23.058
And it's a good thing.

00:49:23.538 --> 00:49:24.908
There are no definitives.

00:49:25.498 --> 00:49:26.468
It's not black and white.

00:49:26.468 --> 00:49:32.478
Everything is you weigh pros and cons and you pick the one with the least cons, right?

00:49:33.008 --> 00:49:34.248
And so then that's a trade off.

00:49:34.648 --> 00:49:43.298
So when we studied this, we suddenly realized all these relationships of the farmer, the conditions under which the farmer is growing it.

00:49:43.528 --> 00:49:45.613
And then you had farmers right outside this whole campus.

00:49:45.718 --> 00:49:50.198
So you actually could go and see how do they grow the paddy or how do they grow the millets.

00:49:50.358 --> 00:49:51.728
Why should we eat more millets?

00:49:52.268 --> 00:49:56.028
Because they're grown around you and they're more water conserving.

00:49:56.558 --> 00:49:59.868
So then the school menu changed and the kids began eating differently.

00:50:00.228 --> 00:50:03.161
So that is the systems view of life.

00:50:03.161 --> 00:50:06.423
When you begin to connect, make the connections, yeah, yeah.

00:50:06.423 --> 00:50:09.228
Suraj: That's a very illuminating example.

00:50:09.238 --> 00:50:10.328
Radha: Long story short.

00:50:11.208 --> 00:50:12.448
Suraj: No that's very useful.

00:50:12.458 --> 00:50:16.018
Have you written anywhere about that, the food project?

00:50:16.148 --> 00:50:17.608
Radha: Yes, I have written.

00:50:17.638 --> 00:50:20.848
It was a report for a group.

00:50:20.868 --> 00:50:23.118
But then there is this thing called Sawaliram.

00:50:24.308 --> 00:50:25.638
I don't know if you've come across it.

00:50:25.638 --> 00:50:31.648
It's okay, so in the 70s, there is this science project called Hosangabad Science Project right.

00:50:31.898 --> 00:50:36.548
Which was about making science education accessible to rural children, really.

00:50:36.748 --> 00:50:43.968
So it was a lot of the work was in Hindi and they brought out a magazine called Sandarbh, which even comes today.

00:50:44.438 --> 00:50:48.758
And some excellent science educators came together to make science accessible.

00:50:48.758 --> 00:50:50.503
This was in the 70s.

00:50:50.858 --> 00:50:52.758
And then it became Eklavya.

00:50:54.018 --> 00:50:54.778
Suraj: Oh okay.

00:50:55.128 --> 00:50:55.618
Radha: Eklavya Yeah.

00:50:56.118 --> 00:51:04.318
And then there used to be these postcards in those days where you wrote your question and sent it to Eklavya and you got an answer.

00:51:05.268 --> 00:51:06.168
So now-

00:51:06.458 --> 00:51:09.028
Suraj: There are some things that we should bring back.

00:51:09.218 --> 00:51:09.728
Radha: I think.

00:51:10.038 --> 00:51:10.988
Suraj: Like some things are actually much better.

00:51:11.398 --> 00:51:11.428
Radha: Yes.

00:51:11.428 --> 00:51:12.718
So much better.

00:51:13.028 --> 00:51:16.368
But now, so that was called Sawaliram questions.

00:51:17.718 --> 00:51:24.358
But now, some of the people have actually created an online version of the Salawiram.

00:51:25.168 --> 00:51:30.368
S-A-W, just put it into the chat box and as you can actually see it.

00:51:30.388 --> 00:51:33.368
S-A-W-A-L-I-R-A-M.

00:51:33.378 --> 00:51:33.708
Sawaliram, yeah.

00:51:34.198 --> 00:51:37.898
So Sawaliram, it's a friend now Jayshree Ramdas.

00:51:40.398 --> 00:51:42.138
So she had requested.

00:51:42.438 --> 00:51:44.788
So I've actually written articles on it for them.

00:51:45.728 --> 00:51:46.078
Suraj: Okay.

00:51:46.148 --> 00:51:47.078
Radha: It's on their website.

00:51:47.138 --> 00:51:47.898
Yeah, it's on their website.

00:51:48.248 --> 00:51:49.448
You can see pictures as well.

00:51:49.448 --> 00:51:49.931
Photographs as well.

00:51:50.038 --> 00:51:50.968
Suraj: All right, super.

00:51:50.968 --> 00:51:54.358
I think that's a really, really illuminating example.

00:51:54.398 --> 00:52:05.028
And this is a sidebar, but I work very closely with Cindy Hmelo-Silver, who is one of the people who talks a lot about and writes about problem based learning.

00:52:06.578 --> 00:52:11.198
And her background is in aquatic ecosystems and respiratory therapy.

00:52:11.198 --> 00:52:18.128
And it's one of the places where like we really get to re-imagine what it actually means to do science education.

00:52:18.128 --> 00:52:30.088
This maybe points to why you resist the idea of classifying of what type of [inaudible] . Any sufficiently deep science question becomes-

00:52:30.098 --> 00:52:31.578
Radha: A larger question, exactly.

00:52:31.578 --> 00:52:31.928
Sure.

00:52:31.928 --> 00:52:32.068
Absolutely.

00:52:32.068 --> 00:52:36.738
Suraj: And I think your food example starts with a question of ... Well, actually it started as a social question.

00:52:36.738 --> 00:52:37.738
Where does our food come from?

00:52:37.738 --> 00:52:37.958
Radha: Correct.

00:52:38.368 --> 00:52:41.898
Suraj: What grows where becomes thinking about what do we eat-

00:52:42.288 --> 00:52:42.858
Radha: Exactly.

00:52:43.048 --> 00:52:44.258
... Suraj: As a natural consequence of that question.

00:52:44.458 --> 00:52:45.708
Radha: Exactly, exactly.

00:52:46.458 --> 00:52:52.398
Suraj: But I'm glad we were just talking about some of these publications because this offers me an opportunity to change the topic entirely.

00:52:52.878 --> 00:52:57.798
Earlier, you had talked about your role with I Wonder as one of your key roles.

00:52:57.808 --> 00:53:09.638
So for our audience, I think I Wonder is a really ... I've had the chance to look at your article in there and there was, oh now I feel bad, but there was somebody else who we interviewed whose article I had read in I Wonder.

00:53:09.848 --> 00:53:10.978
Oh no, it was Deborah.

00:53:11.018 --> 00:53:12.048
Deborah had an article.

00:53:12.048 --> 00:53:12.338
Radha: Deborah, of course, yes.

00:53:12.418 --> 00:53:12.948
Deborah, yes.

00:53:13.158 --> 00:53:16.678
Suraj: So it wasn't somebody we ... Now I feel really bad.

00:53:16.678 --> 00:53:18.938
So maybe you can tell us a little bit about why.

00:53:19.128 --> 00:53:21.088
And it's a relatively new publication, no?

00:53:21.258 --> 00:53:22.258
Radha: Yes, it is-

00:53:22.288 --> 00:53:25.008
Suraj: So maybe you can tell us a little bit about it and why?

00:53:25.018 --> 00:53:26.948
Radha: Yeah, 2015, '14.

00:53:27.098 --> 00:53:29.038
Sure, actually [crosstalk]

00:53:29.048 --> 00:53:33.628
.

Suraj: Why made and for what purpose and who contributes and that kind of thing?

00:53:33.698 --> 00:53:34.786
Radha: Sure, sure no problem.

00:53:35.068 --> 00:53:37.698
So I Wonder actually started off as a science magazine.

00:53:38.078 --> 00:53:42.248
And it started off as a popular science magazine for any interested reader, right?

00:53:42.928 --> 00:53:51.498
But over the last three years, it has actually changed its function to really be ... Three years?

00:53:51.668 --> 00:53:53.148
No, I think four years actually.

00:53:53.408 --> 00:53:54.748
But anyway, over the last few years.

00:53:55.298 --> 00:54:01.388
It has changed its role to become a science magazine for middle and high school teachers.

00:54:01.868 --> 00:54:02.308
Okay?

00:54:02.818 --> 00:54:15.178
And in the last two years, we've really narrowed it down even further to be relevant to field teachers, particularly in rural areas and government schools.

00:54:15.978 --> 00:54:17.408
Suraj: So why these changes?

00:54:17.668 --> 00:54:20.338
Radha: Because this is Azim Premji University.

00:54:20.338 --> 00:54:28.718
And Azim Premji University, it really has a very strong mandate of justice, equality and sustainability, right?

00:54:29.228 --> 00:54:45.478
And they have education research centers in multiple locations in the country, resource centers, education resource centers, where they work with local schools and teachers.

00:54:45.478 --> 00:54:46.558
Teacher education.

00:54:47.078 --> 00:54:54.278
And really reducing that inequality which we were just talking about in terms of access to quality education.

00:54:54.868 --> 00:54:58.728
So in that sense, since that is the mandate at the focus.

00:54:58.728 --> 00:55:13.088
So all of the magazines that Azim Premji University brings out now increasingly wanting to get more and more focused on addressing the needs of schools and education communities.

00:55:13.828 --> 00:55:31.028
And so now, we've also changed the composition of the editorial board to include more representation from the field so that we have a much better sense of what is their need?

00:55:31.668 --> 00:55:33.138
What is it that they're looking for?

00:55:33.138 --> 00:55:34.958
What kind of resources are they looking for?

00:55:35.168 --> 00:55:44.028
What are the gaps that need to be filled in order to be able to ... So it's very exciting because it is ... See earlier, we had scientists.

00:55:44.738 --> 00:55:47.958
Scientists, educators and mostly scientists contributing.

00:55:48.488 --> 00:55:59.288
So what happens is that scientists who are excellent, really good at their work and their research, but probably ... And also some of them write very well.

00:56:00.008 --> 00:56:10.098
But then when it comes to writing for teachers and schools and particularly schools and teachers from these backgrounds.

00:56:10.098 --> 00:56:14.948
From the much less privileged backgrounds, it's a completely different kettle of fish, right?

00:56:14.948 --> 00:56:16.988
I mean you have to write in a very different way.

00:56:17.888 --> 00:56:25.318
If you're writing on astronomy, et cetera, you have to actually be able to provide information and resources that teachers can use directly.

00:56:25.748 --> 00:56:28.088
Because they're grappling with the curriculum anyway, right?

00:56:28.288 --> 00:56:30.718
They are under a lot of resource constraints.

00:56:30.728 --> 00:56:43.948
So now, in fact, this latest issue, issue six, the feedback we've been getting about it is that wow, it's got like so many posters and activity sheets and the articles are so accessible.

00:56:43.948 --> 00:56:58.828
And it's about education and pedagogy and this is just really ... So it looks like we've finally slowly and steadily been moving in that direction of it really being a more accessible resource for practicing teachers, yeah.

00:57:00.058 --> 00:57:00.838
Suraj: Okay, great.

00:57:01.998 --> 00:57:08.098
Part of why I asked for that is just that I think what I have seen of I Wonder is really wonderful.

00:57:08.148 --> 00:57:26.248
And I think, just to zoom out for a little bit, this project that we're doing where we're doing these interviews and stuff is part of this much larger initiative around ... That started as like how can we get more people from countries that aren't well represented in the learning sciences field involved in our team?

00:57:26.608 --> 00:57:35.898
Our thinking around the whole issue has really changed over time to become like what have we not been seeing and thinking about that we can talk to be people and learn more about.

00:57:35.898 --> 00:57:39.248
And we've been doing these interviews for now, almost two years.

00:57:39.338 --> 00:57:40.678
This is off the record.

00:57:40.708 --> 00:57:44.473
I mean we're otherwise on the record but we'll cut it in post.

00:57:44.638 --> 00:57:45.518
Radha: Yeah, exactly.

00:57:45.518 --> 00:57:54.828
Suraj: But our thinking has so changed about ... And even the interview questions that we've brought to people have really changed and to hear more of these stories and things.

00:57:54.828 --> 00:58:09.538
And all of that is to say what we're really hoping to do is along side these interviews, put up these things that say, "You know, these North American and white and European communities don't have a monopoly on good educational resources."

00:58:09.948 --> 00:58:10.688
Radha: That's right, that's right, that's right.

00:58:10.728 --> 00:58:24.708
Suraj: So I think I Wonder is a great example of the kind of super educational resource, something that I think people even in North America and Europe would find really useful in their educational activities, but would never even think to look for.

00:58:25.278 --> 00:58:25.328
Radha: Correct.

00:58:25.688 --> 00:58:27.688
Suraj: So that's the kind of thing that we're hoping to elevate.

00:58:27.688 --> 00:58:27.928
Radha: Great.

00:58:28.058 --> 00:58:30.328
Oh that would be ... That's an excellent ... Yeah.

00:58:31.798 --> 00:58:35.568
Suraj: So we're already at an hour if you can believe.

00:58:36.468 --> 00:58:37.728
Radha: Having a lot of fun clearly.

00:58:38.408 --> 00:58:38.518
Suraj: Yeah.

00:58:40.758 --> 00:58:41.338
Well, I am but I don't know about you.

00:58:41.338 --> 00:58:46.538
Radha: No, no, but I mean you're giving me an opportunity to free float and talk and share my thoughts with you.

00:58:46.808 --> 00:58:54.468
Suraj: Well then you'll love this next question, but let me just outline a plan for the next half hour so that we're respectful of your time and cut off.

00:58:54.478 --> 00:59:01.628
So I think I have one more question that is, I would say, substantial in nature I'd like to you talk about your theory and all like this.

00:59:02.188 --> 00:59:06.748
Then I think I'll ask you to give a little bit advice to new researchers.

00:59:06.748 --> 00:59:14.058
And then what we'll do is in our last few minutes, I'll just sort of repeat some of the main questions and give you an opportunity to add anything that you feel like-

00:59:14.598 --> 00:59:15.348
Radha: Yeah, yeah.

00:59:15.368 --> 00:59:29.818
Suraj: So the next substantial, last, big question that I want to think about is across your work and even your story today, there really is this sense of place and this idea that you've written about and you were telling in your story with the students.

00:59:29.848 --> 00:59:32.808
You walk around and you see what there is….

00:59:32.808 --> 00:59:42.598
And in that piece, I think it was in Journal of Krishnamurti Schools where you talked about sitting in the forest for some amount of time and just looking around.

00:59:42.838 --> 00:59:48.648
In the learning sciences recently, there has been some really wonderful work around these embodied questions.

00:59:48.648 --> 00:59:51.238
Questions about place and place based education.

00:59:53.368 --> 00:59:56.218
Or maybe place based education isn't the right term for it.

00:59:56.288 --> 00:59:56.635
Radha: Yes, it is.

00:59:56.688 --> 00:59:57.328
It is, yes.

00:59:57.328 --> 00:59:59.748
Suraj: But I have this question in two parts.

00:59:59.768 --> 01:00:04.328
The first part, and I'll ask them both and then ask them again so we don't go totally off the rails.

01:00:04.428 --> 01:00:05.018
Radha: Sure, sure, sure.

01:00:05.018 --> 01:00:18.958
Suraj: So the first part of the question is just is there anything about this embodied, place based approach that you take that you think, thinking in specifically these Indian contexts, we might be able to learn something new if we focus?

01:00:18.958 --> 01:00:26.858
And then the second piece of that is to offer an opportunity to think about what your work has been like in the past few years when it was been online and all like that.

01:00:26.858 --> 01:00:38.348
So the first part, what about your work in these Indian contexts around these place based and embodied experiences might we be able to learn from outside of the Indian context?

01:00:38.718 --> 01:00:39.258
Radha: Okay.

01:00:39.378 --> 01:00:42.268
So one of the things about place based learning.

01:00:42.278 --> 01:00:50.638
And I really have embraced that term a lot these days because I find it really says what it is.

01:00:51.908 --> 01:00:53.928
India, of course, with all its diversity.

01:00:54.528 --> 01:00:59.488
It is so crucial that we do place based learning.

01:00:59.998 --> 01:01:04.173
Because it is embedded in that social ecological context.

01:01:04.528 --> 01:01:11.988
And like I said to you earlier, the reason that is important is because children come from very diverse contexts.

01:01:12.088 --> 01:01:19.018
Even to ... Like you take a government school in say, even in an urban city, right?

01:01:20.388 --> 01:01:20.678
Or rural.

01:01:21.768 --> 01:01:23.768
Children come from very diverse contexts.

01:01:25.058 --> 01:01:27.228
Some children, maybe first generation learners.

01:01:27.348 --> 01:01:34.278
Their parents are either agricultural labor or are doing some skilled work or the other.

01:01:34.398 --> 01:01:35.758
Or unskilled work or the other.

01:01:37.408 --> 01:01:40.848
Or come from farming background.

01:01:40.848 --> 01:01:40.908
Whatever.

01:01:41.988 --> 01:01:44.338
But they're all coming from diverse contexts, right?

01:01:44.368 --> 01:01:50.038
And so they're coming with ... And then [tribal] adivasi children who are coming from a very different context.

01:01:50.048 --> 01:01:54.748
So this homogenization of learning.

01:01:55.218 --> 01:02:07.838
Homogenization and uniformity of education destroys creativity, destroys a child's ability to think, destroys the confidence of the child, right?

01:02:13.708 --> 01:02:25.078
So it does not allow that child to articulate and express themselves without fear.

01:02:25.328 --> 01:02:38.668
Because you're expected to understand , you are in Rayalseema, you don't even know what anything looks like.

01:02:38.768 --> 01:02:45.408
You don't even know what the sea looks like but you're supposed to understand about Australia and its mineral resources and all of that stuff.

01:02:45.508 --> 01:02:51.218
Then you're supposed to understand about oceans and things.

01:02:52.258 --> 01:02:55.478
And you have no understanding because you've never even seen an ocean before.

01:02:55.478 --> 01:02:56.278
You've never seen the sea.

01:02:56.278 --> 01:02:59.588
You don't even know what a beach looks like and then you're supposed to understand this.

01:03:00.348 --> 01:03:14.461
So first and foremost, principles of science, understanding of phenomena around you, it's possible to be able to understand all concepts of physics, chemistry, biology by embedding it in that place.

01:03:14.461 --> 01:03:14.533
Not difficult at all.

01:03:14.533 --> 01:03:35.828
It is the ability to educators to be able to pull out example from that context which is forcing them to have standardized textbooks and standardized ... So the point here is you could have a framework.

01:03:35.968 --> 01:03:38.878
So we've tried this once or twice.

01:03:39.228 --> 01:03:41.598
You have a theme, say water, right?

01:03:42.698 --> 01:03:43.828
That's in your textbook.

01:03:44.518 --> 01:03:45.558
It's in chemistry.

01:03:45.618 --> 01:03:46.658
It's in physics.

01:03:46.878 --> 01:03:47.978
It's in biology.

01:03:48.008 --> 01:03:49.498
It's in history, right?

01:03:49.498 --> 01:03:58.088
But you pick up the theme of water and then you look around your environment and say okay, what is the ecological significance of water here?

01:03:58.288 --> 01:04:00.188
I can learn about the properties of water.

01:04:00.188 --> 01:04:04.678
I can learn about all that, but at the same time I can understand where does water come from?

01:04:04.678 --> 01:04:06.058
How do I access water?

01:04:06.328 --> 01:04:08.348
What is the technology is being used?

01:04:08.348 --> 01:04:10.688
How is energy being used to access water?

01:04:11.028 --> 01:04:14.588
All of that learning I can do with an understanding of my context.

01:04:17.168 --> 01:04:28.098
But the advantage of something like this is when you understand it in your context, the ability to address challenges in your context.

01:04:29.988 --> 01:04:31.988
Get embedded in your head.

01:04:32.958 --> 01:04:37.988
And when you're talking about the future of so much uncertainty, right?

01:04:38.458 --> 01:04:39.598
Climate uncertainty.

01:04:40.968 --> 01:04:53.548
Changing environment of technology and particularly information technology and bio technology, then you're talking about the jobs of the future are not going to be the same as the jobs of the past.

01:04:54.198 --> 01:05:01.658
Then you're talking about all of these changes and climate change, in itself, which is going to completely change reality of life.

01:05:02.368 --> 01:05:04.178
How do you cope with this uncertainty?

01:05:04.758 --> 01:05:07.558
How do you adapt to this uncertainty?

01:05:07.858 --> 01:05:12.508
How do you build flexibility to adapt to this uncertainty?

01:05:12.508 --> 01:05:19.448
It is by understanding your context so that you can equip yourself.

01:05:19.808 --> 01:05:23.658
First and foremost, you build confidence because you're using your own information and understanding.

01:05:24.278 --> 01:05:26.058
And then understanding science through that.

01:05:26.068 --> 01:05:27.888
Or using principles of science to understand.

01:05:29.898 --> 01:05:33.478
Suraj: There is like a clicking noise just there when you put your hands like that.

01:05:33.478 --> 01:05:33.758
All right.

01:05:33.898 --> 01:05:34.648
Yeah, that's fine.

01:05:34.878 --> 01:05:35.168
Radha: Okay.

01:05:36.018 --> 01:05:44.098
Suraj: [inaudible] if you gesture with that enthusiasm that that shakes so you don't have to hold it or anything, but just that particular motion, I think, go on.

01:05:44.768 --> 01:05:48.958
Radha: So then, therefore, the question then is if that if I don't.

01:05:49.628 --> 01:05:55.098
So as far as I can see, the understanding of how to survive in your context.

01:05:55.668 --> 01:05:56.898
Important, okay.

01:05:57.178 --> 01:05:58.141
How do you grow food?

01:05:58.141 --> 01:06:01.338
Because I think all education should definitely involve growing of food.

01:06:02.578 --> 01:06:03.198
And how do you?

01:06:03.208 --> 01:06:08.968
Because by growing food, you realize how I can use resources, okay?

01:06:09.878 --> 01:06:13.938
And that is a very ... Because all of the resources that you need to grow food.

01:06:14.228 --> 01:06:25.668
Water, land, soil, ecological conditions, ensuring the microbial quality or the soil fertility is ensured through microbial existence in that area.

01:06:26.748 --> 01:06:31.488
The inter relationships in that soil and ecosystem.

01:06:31.878 --> 01:06:33.488
So you understand all of that.

01:06:33.558 --> 01:06:38.438
You understand what can impact life in that ecosystem.

01:06:38.438 --> 01:06:45.078
So you really begin to understand inter relationships in that given ecosystem.

01:06:45.918 --> 01:06:47.908
It is intuitive.

01:06:47.908 --> 01:06:54.708
It builds on your own knowledge of that ecosystem, but you can abstract larger concepts from.

01:06:58.428 --> 01:07:06.958
So there is a foundation of familiarity, of understanding, from which you can abstract concepts of science, mathematics, whatever it is.

01:07:09.198 --> 01:07:22.078
Suraj: So here I'll perhaps refer our readers to that recent piece because in the Journal of Krishnamurtis Schools because I think that the example of students sitting in the forest raises some really, really lovely questions around science education.

01:07:22.078 --> 01:07:37.568
But also there's such a reality of the kids getting impatient or the dignity of the children raising questions that we could not have predicted or that peacefulness that is a much easier said than done to sit in quiet contemplation of nature and all.

01:07:38.608 --> 01:07:44.248
So here I'll just refer our students to that, our listeners to that piece.

01:07:44.248 --> 01:07:57.408
Do you want to say anything about how you're thinking about this issue has, what you've done in practice or how you're thinking about place based education has evolved through this COVID period where much of your work has been online?

01:07:57.408 --> 01:07:57.418
1: 08:00

01:07:57.708 --> 01:08:09.688
Radha: Yeah, actually that's a good question to ask because it's been a challenge because so much of the work that I've done with children in the last few years has been in the outdoors, right?

01:08:10.268 --> 01:08:14.118
But I said okay, this is a challenge.

01:08:14.118 --> 01:08:15.278
Let's see how we can do this.

01:08:15.338 --> 01:08:26.988
And we actually did an online course with a bunch of third grade, fourth grade students and fifth grade actually, to do a nature walk from within your home.

01:08:27.618 --> 01:08:28.988
So as long you have a window.

01:08:29.728 --> 01:08:33.328
And it was a five day thing with you had one day.

01:08:34.818 --> 01:08:40.793
So you had a one day engagement and you had a one day online interaction for an hour and a half.

01:08:40.793 --> 01:08:43.358
And then they got the next off and then they came back.

01:08:43.358 --> 01:08:46.098
So every alternate day we had online engagement.

01:08:47.008 --> 01:08:48.658
And they were given homework to do.

01:08:49.258 --> 01:08:52.888
And they were basically ... So yeah.

01:08:53.948 --> 01:08:56.258
So this experience is there in the latest issue of I Wonder.

01:08:56.268 --> 01:08:56.308
Suraj: Oh great.

01:08:56.338 --> 01:08:59.058
Radha: It's called Structure and Spontaneity.

01:09:00.008 --> 01:09:01.888
The paradox of structure and spontaneity.

01:09:01.888 --> 01:09:02.988
So how much do you structure?

01:09:02.998 --> 01:09:04.828
How much do you keep spontaneous, right?

01:09:05.298 --> 01:09:09.628
Because you don't want to be telling them what do you.

01:09:09.738 --> 01:09:11.098
You want them to observe.

01:09:11.098 --> 01:09:12.368
You want them to become aware.

01:09:12.368 --> 01:09:13.778
You want them to become sensitive.

01:09:14.638 --> 01:09:20.518
But at the same time, you want them to develop some science skills of recording, inferring, all of that.

01:09:22.368 --> 01:09:22.718
So yeah.

01:09:22.718 --> 01:09:27.858
We were able to do that quite well because they discovered that there is nature indoors.

01:09:28.188 --> 01:09:42.898
And for this, I mean I used the formats that were given by some friends at NCF, Nature Conservation Fund [https://www.ncf-india.org/education-and-public-engagement/a-nature-learning-framework-for-schools] . And based in Mysore, many of them work in Bangalore.

01:09:44.348 --> 01:09:48.228
They're nature educators, of course, and they had these hidden housemates.

01:09:48.228 --> 01:09:52.628
They had these bingo sheets and hidden housemates.

01:09:52.628 --> 01:09:58.268
And so shared those sheets with these children and said go look for spiders and lizard poop in your house.

01:09:58.268 --> 01:10:02.468
And they did that and so it was incredible and it was possible.

01:10:02.968 --> 01:10:07.888
And then you suddenly realize, and I said, as long as you have a window in your house, that's enough.

01:10:09.278 --> 01:10:13.968
Because you go to the same window three times a day and look out and see what birds you see.

01:10:14.488 --> 01:10:15.188
Where do they live?

01:10:15.538 --> 01:10:16.678
How often do they come?

01:10:16.688 --> 01:10:18.888
Are they birds on the wire?

01:10:18.888 --> 01:10:20.208
Are they birds in the tree?

01:10:20.698 --> 01:10:24.348
So you really begin to ... So the one day they looked at birds.

01:10:24.348 --> 01:10:25.618
Another day at plants.

01:10:25.988 --> 01:10:31.918
A third day at, yeah, at insects.

01:10:32.348 --> 01:10:34.258
And a fourth day, hidden housemates, yeah.

01:10:34.608 --> 01:10:36.138
Oh yeah, sorry on the third day, hidden housemates.

01:10:36.168 --> 01:10:41.048
On the fourth day, they grew fungus on chapati and on rice.

01:10:41.058 --> 01:10:45.198
And I'm not sure parents were happy, but the kids were.

01:10:46.758 --> 01:10:48.788
So yeah, it was great fun.

01:10:48.848 --> 01:10:50.438
And the kids really enjoyed it.

01:10:51.528 --> 01:10:51.948
Yeah.

01:10:52.268 --> 01:10:55.558
So we managed, yeah.

01:10:55.558 --> 01:11:09.188
Suraj: Yeah, that creates this really fascinating direction for this place based research in these virtual worlds, I think, will be a very interesting direction of future research.

01:11:09.188 --> 01:11:16.598
So at this point, I'll, in respect for your time here, pull us into a sort of closing.

01:11:16.598 --> 01:11:19.978
So two closings.

01:11:20.008 --> 01:11:30.888
The first closing we'll keep simple which is what advice do you have to newcomers to environmental education research in the Indian context?

01:11:30.888 --> 01:11:34.568
What kinds of things should people be thinking about if they're interested in these issues?

01:11:36.198 --> 01:11:51.128
Radha: Okay, so I think when we talk about environmental education research, I think it's also important to understand, first and foremost, what is environmental education in an Indian context?

01:11:51.888 --> 01:11:58.528
One is a broad Indian context, but the other is within India, there is ecological contexts.

01:11:58.528 --> 01:12:02.118
There's geographical contexts and there's social contexts.

01:12:02.118 --> 01:12:05.148
And I think it's very important to look at all of these.

01:12:05.348 --> 01:12:10.088
It can become complex, but I think unless you understand all these dimensions.

01:12:12.378 --> 01:12:14.798
And when we say social, it's just like what we talked about.

01:12:15.468 --> 01:12:16.778
Caste, religion, political.

01:12:16.938 --> 01:12:18.278
I mean it's ideological.

01:12:18.278 --> 01:12:19.958
There's just so many layers to it.

01:12:19.958 --> 01:12:22.198
And if we don't understand all of that.

01:12:22.868 --> 01:12:26.268
Because policy is so strongly influenced by all of this, right?

01:12:26.288 --> 01:12:28.498
I mean the political landscape.

01:12:29.028 --> 01:12:38.298
And also this idea of a democratic country and what is the democratic structure at a local level?

01:12:38.698 --> 01:12:42.538
How does that impinge in environmental education?

01:12:43.698 --> 01:12:53.598
Because if you don't understand those structures, then environmental education only becomes environmental science and technology.

01:12:54.938 --> 01:13:00.148
Suraj: Which I think we've covered is not enough.

01:13:00.988 --> 01:13:04.718
Radha: Not enough unfortunately, yes.

01:13:04.718 --> 01:13:04.723
Yeah.

01:13:04.728 --> 01:13:33.908
So I would say really to ... And like you said about gender and about ... I think it's very important to design environmental education research to understand these multiple dimensions of how they intersect in shaping how the human populations engage with the resources around them.

01:13:33.958 --> 01:13:36.651
And then how they're influenced and how they influence.

01:13:36.651 --> 01:13:41.188
I think to understand that relationship, it's very important to their ... Yeah.

01:13:41.688 --> 01:13:42.248
I would say.

01:13:43.368 --> 01:13:45.248
1: 13:46

01:13:46.778 --> 01:13:57.418
Suraj: I would also like to, in closing, give you an opportunity to talk about if you want to speak at all about how COVID-19 has shaped your thinking or your work in the past two years?

01:13:57.418 --> 01:14:01.478
I know we talked about this, the implications for virtual things.

01:14:01.478 --> 01:14:05.788
But you can also pass on this question, but given the-

01:14:06.388 --> 01:14:11.808
Radha: No, no, it's a very serious issue.

01:14:11.818 --> 01:14:21.728
For me, it really has made me think about what I want to spend the rest of my life, I guess, or my time in education doing.

01:14:21.778 --> 01:14:25.333
Because there's this group that I am very closely engaged in.

01:14:25.528 --> 01:14:28.148
And these are friends in Telangana and Andhra Pradesh.

01:14:28.148 --> 01:14:31.388
And we work on the children's program together.

01:14:32.708 --> 01:14:44.438
And you realize, we've just recently been doing some work at trying to understand what are the children, how are the children going to go back to school, right?

01:14:45.078 --> 01:14:46.118
One and a half years.

01:14:46.798 --> 01:14:50.908
So literally they have moved from say grade two to grade four.

01:14:51.658 --> 01:14:53.678
Grade three has disappeared, right?

01:14:54.118 --> 01:14:55.718
How are these children going to cope?

01:14:56.108 --> 01:15:01.658
Many of them have not had access to online education because they don't have the facilities, right?

01:15:01.938 --> 01:15:04.288
They don't either have access to a telephone.

01:15:04.838 --> 01:15:06.928
Forget the laptop, even to a mobile phone.

01:15:07.258 --> 01:15:09.618
And if they do, then there isn't stable internet.

01:15:10.248 --> 01:15:14.138
And there is one phone in the family, I mean all of the infrastructure challenges.

01:15:15.388 --> 01:15:16.548
So that's one.

01:15:16.568 --> 01:15:21.098
Now how do these children, and many of the children have forgotten to read.

01:15:21.668 --> 01:15:22.328
How to write.

01:15:22.438 --> 01:15:22.448
Numeracy.

01:15:26.548 --> 01:15:32.798
So with these challenges, what science are you going to do when we talk about science education, right?

01:15:33.688 --> 01:15:34.898
So where do you begin?

01:15:35.118 --> 01:15:36.998
How do you work with teachers?

01:15:38.638 --> 01:15:42.478
How do equip teachers with the ability to cope with these kind of gaps?

01:15:43.448 --> 01:15:44.948
Now this is COVID-19, right?

01:15:45.258 --> 01:15:51.005
But I am seeing as we go into the future, there are going to be a lot of disruptions.

01:15:51.005 --> 01:15:52.148
There is climate change.

01:15:52.158 --> 01:15:54.318
If somebody is stuck in a flood prone area.

01:15:55.828 --> 01:16:00.078
If you have to migrate and move away from flooding, coastal cities, right?

01:16:00.498 --> 01:16:08.538
And it's always that section of society which it's going to hit which gets hit all the time because they don't have access to power and to facilities.

01:16:09.588 --> 01:16:11.228
They don't have access to power.

01:16:11.258 --> 01:16:14.958
They are not powerful enough to be able to access their facilities or their resources.

01:16:14.978 --> 01:16:18.498
So it's always going to be those marginalized communities.

01:16:18.638 --> 01:16:24.068
So how are we going to shape and change our education system or transform it?

01:16:24.468 --> 01:16:27.898
Or make it flexible enough to accommodate all of this?

01:16:28.968 --> 01:16:43.228
So that's something that I've really been thinking about very strongly and how do we all, as maybe not in that formal teaching system of government schools, how do we support the teachers as educators?

01:16:43.228 --> 01:16:51.538
Or as people who are clearly interested in this ... Who feel very strongly about the need for the right education.

01:16:52.848 --> 01:16:55.288
Because for me, this is sustainable education seriously.

01:16:55.288 --> 01:17:09.708
And if we don't do this, if we don't get all these children equipped with the ability to be able to educate themselves, then forget about place based and forget about pedagogy, right?

01:17:10.418 --> 01:17:16.138
And if you can't even get them to read and write and there's been a huge setback.

01:17:16.398 --> 01:17:17.453
I mean there is a massive population of children in India who lost out.

01:17:17.453 --> 01:17:29.123
Yeah, so that, for me, is really a big thing as the fall out of COVID.

01:17:29.378 --> 01:17:33.058
All the children of these migrants who have been displaced.

01:17:33.058 --> 01:17:35.158
And so yeah.

01:17:35.848 --> 01:17:38.538
And how do you do that with small libraries?

01:17:38.538 --> 01:17:40.738
How do you build public libraries and get access?

01:17:40.748 --> 01:17:46.268
So that the next time something like this happens, can they go to a public library and be provided?

01:17:46.268 --> 01:17:58.368
Like in Kerala, television sets have been installed in remote villages and the government actually did set up education programs through the television.

01:17:59.258 --> 01:18:06.928
So even if you don't have access to internet, et cetera, recorded videos were cast on television.

01:18:06.928 --> 01:18:14.938
So the children will watch it and in the community center, where you could organize them to have enough physical distance between themselves.

01:18:16.968 --> 01:18:27.308
So yeah, so I'm really ... That's something that's been ... Yeah, in my head.

01:18:27.318 --> 01:18:33.168
Suraj: Yeah, your point that we will have disruptions in the future really gets to me.

01:18:33.208 --> 01:18:43.438
And I think what a shame it will be if and when these disruptions happen and we turn out to have not really learned anything from this tremendous disruption.

01:18:53.058 --> 01:20:00.318
Radha: Yeah, yeah, exactly.