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This file was generated by Descript <www.descript.com>

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Radha: And I was trained as an environmental scientist, formally as in my PhD is in Environmental Science and Engineering from IIT Bombay.

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But the way I really see sort of where I am today, I think I call myself an educator.

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That's probably the best description of where I am today.

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And really just briefly on trajectory.

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I came into teaching and education as an educator much later in my career actually.

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I started off as a consultant, environmental consultant.

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Worked in the U.S.

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Worked in the Middle East.

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Worked all over the place.

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And then the switch to school teaching specifically.

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So I was very keen on school teaching because I really felt like given our education system and where it's taken all of us, and particularly my generation, I was quite convinced that, in a evangelical fashion, that the best way forward is to actually indoctrinate children to think differently.

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So frankly, I came into teaching at a much later point.

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About let's say, 12, 15 years ago maybe.

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Not even 15, less than that, yeah.

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So yeah.

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So that's how I came into environmental education if you'd like to call it that, yeah, yeah.

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Suraj: Okay, thank you.

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And right now you're visiting faculty at APU, is that right?

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Radha: That's right.

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I'm a visiting faculty at APU's School of Development.

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And I am one of the editors now of i wonder…, the University’s science magazine for middle and high school teachers..

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So that's a formal position.

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I also am a member of the Food Sovereignty Alliance.

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And working on a children's program with rural children as well.

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So that's really what I do yeah.

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Now a lot more of that, yeah.

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Suraj: All right.

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Well, I look forward to learning a little bit more about all of that.

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Before we start formally, I'll just say one more time that in this interview, we're simply interested in hearing about your perspectives, practices and experiences.

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In our larger project, we'll examine patterns and differences and how a variety of researchers have explored teaching and learning and diverse Indian contexts.

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All of this is a way to say don't feel that you need to speak on behalf of-

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Radha: No, absolutely, correct, yeah.

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Suraj: Importantly, we want to deeply consider a wide of socio cultural groups and center educational equity in this work.

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In this spirit, we actively seek perspectives from minoritized groups and connections to important social issues such as caste discrimination, LGBTQ+ wellbeing, sexism, religious discrimination, indigenous epistemology.

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I know you've written about and thought about.

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Ecological crises, obviously that's [inaudible] the interview today and decolonization.

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So let's get into formally.

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So we're really excited to hear about your work in science education, especially thinking about sustainability and climate change education.

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Let's start by talking about some of your recent work with students and educators around environmental education.

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Then later we'll talk about, return to the story that brought you there and some of your research more broadly.

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So can you tell us about some of what you've been working on currently or recently with students and teachers around environmental education?

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Radha: It's been assorted in the sense that over the last three years, I think, I've been dabbling with environmental education in different contexts and under different conditions.

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So let me just clarify this.

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So there have been projects.

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One, of course, that I have been working on consistently for a while is with this group called Gen Wise, which is based out of Bangalore and I am a mentor for them.

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And I actually run and conduct online as well as in person courses.

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This was online courses because of the last two years.

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But in 2019 and before that, we were doing offline field courses for children in the ages, typically middle school to high school students.

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And this was really, there's a particular track in the GenWise's education program which is called the Planetary Web of Life.

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And I was really designing and running, yeah, programs.

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The educational programs for children in the age group that I mentioned.

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It actually started off with the three week education program for middle to high school students.

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And I built that around Yuvah Noah Harari's book, Sapiens.

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So around that and I guess one could call it sustainability education, but I really like to think of it as a systems view of life, so to speak.

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So looking at life systemically.

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So that's one basket.

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The other is, I have begun collaborating with the People's Archive of Rural India [PARI] which is run by P Sainath.

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They have an education program, PARI education.

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So I've engaged with them for a while now.

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I just prepared one module or one unit as you might call it on biodiversity and conservation.

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And really the first one in is on classification, biological classification and diversity.

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And this is something that anybody can take.

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Okay, you can take it as a unit and go out and teach middle school children.

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It's almost like a lesson plan with enough details and all of that sort of thing.

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So that's PARI education and I will be collaborating with them as we go along.

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Then there is a group of young people who are from Ashoka University, from Azim Premji University, Bengaluru, undergrad students.

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So they were very keen during the pandemic to teach children.

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And because they're part of what is called ‘Yugma’ network which is a youth network inspired by Friday for Future and all of that.

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And they've done some stellar work on mobilizing support campaigns against the environmental impact assessment 2020 notification that the government of India had put out and various other actions ... And climate change is a big focus for them.

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So some of the young people on that were part of a workshop that I was doing on education.

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And so then they were very keen to go out and work with children.

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And so they designed programs.

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And I shared with them some of the programs that I do.

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So I've just been mentoring them on environmental education programs that they could take out and teach.

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And they've been preparing them.

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Whenever possible, I just provide some resources.

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But we have calls and we're discussing very actively.

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So that's a mentoring sort of role, in a sense.

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And then, of course, work that I do with rural children.

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And unfortunately, it's really been online the last two years.

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And then of course, I Wonder.

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And the last issue that we brought out was teaching as if the Earth matters.

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Issue six.

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And that's available for download.

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But the focus of that was teaching as if the Earth matters.

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So there's a very strong focus on the real challenges that we face in the present and in the future, yeah, yeah.

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So this is sort of, yeah, it's bit of a motley-

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Suraj: yes, I appreciate hearing about all of that because it's quite interesting to think about how you're thinking about environmental education has translated into work with children, with educators and with activists in a very formal course type settings and these very informal activist settings.

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So I have several follow up questions that I'd like to take up with you.

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Radha: Sure, sure.

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Suraj: So it sounds like much of this work you are based in a rural context or think or work with rural children, you mentioned.

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Is that a fair characterization?

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And if so, why that choice?

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Radha: That's an interesting one because a significant amount of work over the last three years was with the urban children.

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But my interest, over the last four or five years.

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So I have to step back a little bit to tell you why my interest.

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I mean I have a very strong interest in rural children and government schools where there is very limited access to resource and limited access to really education.

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Quality education, right?

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So I have a deep interest in that, primarily driven by just the inequality issue, right?

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I mean that here are young people who given the same the opportunity would be able to contribute and for their own well being and growth.

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All it requires is a certain, is access to opportunities and how do we ensure that that is made possible?

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And if we don't do this for this generation than how are we going to get rid of inequity and discrimination?

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So it's really driven by a very strong, I guess, a sense of justice, so to speak.

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But also, there's another element of that is that knowledge which comes from lived experience of these children, right?

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And I've seen this up close when I was teaching at Rishi Valley which was from 2008 to 2015.

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I think-

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Suraj: you were teaching in a school, is it?

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Radha: In a school, Rishi Valley Education Centre, which is a Krishnamoorthy Foundation school and it’s in Andhra Pradesh near Madanpalle.

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And I was there from 2008 to 2015 and really was teaching environmental science to class 11 and 12.

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And then because it's a residential school, you'll end up working with students of all ages.

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But that is an urban community in a rural setting.

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You see?

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So I was doing a lot of work with the rural community on livelihoods and sustainability and it's a very ecologically fragile area.

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10 years of drought and this type of thing.

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And it's in Rayalaseema which is semi-arid.

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And it's a pastoralist community and small farmer community.

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And they, some of us engaged very closely with the local government school, okay?

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So that is when you, there were so many instances where you suddenly realized that is this legitimate lived experience knowledge, the knowledge based on that that these children have.

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And that is disregarded in a very strange way because it's literally, you come to school and you are studying from textbooks and a prescribed syllabus which completely ignores that information and knowledge that you come with.

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Which means it erodes your confidence.

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It erodes your identity.

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And it also erodes your capability to be resilient, right?

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I mean when you come from socio-ecological background and you know how to survive there, right?

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You have that knowledge.

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You have elders who have that knowledge.

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But you're in a school where curriculum tells you something completely different.

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So that's when I really began to think about what is really science and what is science education and what is education?

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So in a sense that was very, and now, and as I'm articulating to you, it always happens when you're articulating, there's more clarity in your own head.

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Suraj: Yes, that's always because it feels like we're along the journey with you.

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Radha: Correct, correct.

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Yeah, so that's where this, what you picked up about a very, or shall I say, subliminally, there is this need to focus on rural situations and yeah.

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Suraj: Okay.

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I had some other follow ups from your first thing, but let's continue with this a little bit because there's so much interesting stuff in what you said.

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So you asked this question about what is really science and what is really education and as something that this time working with these children and watching their own background and sense of identity be erased on this way.

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That I think would be really interesting for our audience to hear you talk more about.

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So as I was reading your article this morning, I was thinking about, I think it was an Albert Einstein that was something like the nature of the we won't find solutions through the same thinking that the things that brought out the problem.

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Radha: Exactly, exactly.

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Suraj: And it has been really interesting.

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And in our field of the learning sciences we have seen, there is some interest now, and particularly indigenous onto-epistemologies.

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Not only because there is a sense that they've been erased in education broadly, but particularly in this moment of climate catastrophe, we're seeing that these communities have really, not in these terms, but have really thought about these issues in ways that all of us would benefit from paying more attention to.

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But we seem to continue to insist on systematically disadvantaging in the day to day practice of science and advocacy as your papers regard you.

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So I guess I just said all the things that I was hoping you would say.

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So maybe you might talk a little bit more about how you feel.

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Radha: That's me, it's very interesting to hear you ... I mean I'm really glad that you read that paper and it resonated with you.

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That was very interesting to hear you say it.

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So actually, let's see.

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Let's, yeah, I think maybe take a couple of steps back now.

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The thing is that having come through the formal education system in India and having gone to premier institutions of study and all of that thing.

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One emerges, I mean for me personally, I emerged as a technologist, right?

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And not to, at all, diss that.

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Because that really helped understand, analyze research.

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Build critical thinking.

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All of that happened because of that training, right?

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And also an appreciation of the importance of rationality and all of the things that science education teaches you.

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Studying science for a long period of time teaches you.

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And also doing research teaches you.

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Now what happens when you then, having been a scientist and technologist and actually applied a lot of the things that I studied and worked on during my higher education period and applying it on the field, gives you a sense of the power of science, right?

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And the power of translating scientific principles into technology and applying it.

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In the process, unless you really are examining that very carefully, you forget that science is actually a social endeavor.

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And that science happens in a social ecological context.

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And it is not in isolation.

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Though through schooling as well as through college, I do remember, you're a scientist.

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You are rational.

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You are objective.

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But as a human being and of which I discovered much later, of course.

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As a human being, your first response is an emotional response.

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You then rationalize that emotional response into action which is logical, based on evidence, all of that, right?

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But your first response, and particularly if you're looking at environmental issues or even social issues, it is an emotional response which can then get translated if you're an activist into action of a different kind.

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But when you're a scientist or an economist, it gets translated into a different kind of action.

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So that's one part of it.

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And then when you actually are with communities like I was and this was straight from being a technologist and a consultant into this environment without any intermediate period.

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And then you suddenly realize that it's not about problems and solutions.

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Okay?

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That's a very linear understanding.

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Here's a problem.

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Here's a solution, end of chapter, right?

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Here's a problem.

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Here's a technological ... Okay, so water for instance, right?

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There's a water issue.

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Okay, so how can I ensure that continuous good quality water supply will happen?

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Oh I could either dig the borewell well deeper or I could get a reverse osmosis unit, remove all the hardness water and make it available.

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So I'm thinking really more in terms of as a technologist to solve the problem.

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As opposed to here a situation or a condition.

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What is the response to that?

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And what change in condition is created by the response?

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And then it creates a new condition to which you have another response, right?

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And then it's a process.

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It's a bit of a journey.

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But in this process, technology is part of the solution.

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Technology is not the solution.

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And this I learned through conversations with these communities where you say, "Okay, so you have a water crisis.

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Okay, let's look at this.

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What do we want to do?

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What should we do?

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Et cetera, et cetera.

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What's your source of water?

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Why are you not-" You're asking the questions to solve the problem.

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But then you're also faced with many other issues.

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And we don't have a continuous water supply.

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We don't have piped water in our homes.

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We have had very little rain in the last, whatever, five to seven years.

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We have to petition literally but the panchayat in order to get water.

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Then the larger social policy issues, inequities in society.

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Why is this situation here?

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All that starts coming in.

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Right?

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Unlike in a city.

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The situation in a city is slightly different from this.

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Then you begin to understand that, okay, one needs to understand policy.

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One needs to understand why policies of a certain kind.

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One needs to understand the economics of the situation.

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One needs to understand social discrimination.

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One needs to understand all of this.

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And also, the solution does not ... Or the response does not come from the technologists.

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But it arrived from consulting, from understanding, from realizing that here is an urban community in a rural setting which has 24/7 water.

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And right outside, there are a bunch of pastoralists and small farmers who don't have 24/7 water and why is that?

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So access to resource, right?

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So then all of these realities then start coming into your understanding of an issue.

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And to me, that is when you realize the significance of what is sustainability?

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It's not about sustainable development and arriving at solutions.

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So in that sense, I think, it was ... And so I could take this into the classroom and that was the other benefit.

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Could take this whole experience into the classroom for students of class 11 and 12 to work on projects.

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Suraj: Tell us more about that.

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Radha: Yeah.

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And that became ... So for instance, as part of the ISC board which is what these students were doing, 11th and 12th, environmental science is an elective.

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Okay.

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So you'll have students, you'll probably have, what?

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Five to eight students who will sign up because you have different electives.

00:22:30.696 --> 00:22:33.866
And the school strength was about 360 students.

00:22:34.046 --> 00:22:37.466
So you have about that many ... It's a small school.

00:22:38.156 --> 00:22:42.816
So when they have that as part of their curriculum, they have to do a project, right?

00:22:43.356 --> 00:22:47.726
And so then with the first batch, I decided okay, it was just four girls.

00:22:48.136 --> 00:22:49.096
So then I said okay, you know what?

00:22:49.096 --> 00:22:50.856
We are going out into the village.

00:22:50.926 --> 00:22:52.016
We're going to go for a walk.

00:22:52.516 --> 00:22:53.556
And you'll decide.

00:22:53.616 --> 00:23:05.326
Each of you have to pick one topic, based on what you see, that you think is something you want to explore or you are really surprised by it.

00:23:05.406 --> 00:23:09.816
Or it disturbs you or whatever, right?

00:23:10.086 --> 00:23:11.076
So then they did that.

00:23:11.486 --> 00:23:16.566
One wanted to work with the shepherd's goatherds to understand what is that livelihood?

00:23:16.576 --> 00:23:18.406
What are the resources it depends on?

00:23:18.406 --> 00:23:20.086
What does a day in their life look like?

00:23:20.086 --> 00:23:21.066
What are the challenges?

00:23:21.986 --> 00:23:22.486
All of that.

00:23:22.486 --> 00:23:23.746
All of those aspects.

00:23:24.216 --> 00:23:27.216
And then another one wanted to look at water challenges in the village.

00:23:27.236 --> 00:23:29.276
Another one, energy challenges in the village.

00:23:29.486 --> 00:23:39.496
So we got four different projects because they were surprised at ... So do all of them have electricity at home?

00:23:40.486 --> 00:23:41.686
And if not, why not?

00:23:42.166 --> 00:23:45.256
And some homes have small solar panels and how did come about?

00:23:45.796 --> 00:23:47.636
So all of those kinds of questions.

00:23:48.426 --> 00:23:48.903
Suraj: Good questions.

00:23:48.903 --> 00:23:52.396
Radha: Very good questions, yes, and because you're just walking.

00:23:52.936 --> 00:23:55.496
And the thing was just walk.

00:23:55.656 --> 00:23:56.286
Let's walk.

00:23:56.336 --> 00:23:57.156
Let's observe.

00:23:57.576 --> 00:23:58.906
Let's see what we make of it.

00:23:59.096 --> 00:24:00.806
Let's reflect on it when we come back.

00:24:01.536 --> 00:24:05.636
We'll probably sit under a tamarind tree and then reflect on it and then see what comes out of it.

00:24:06.086 --> 00:24:07.636
And then interviews with community.

00:24:07.976 --> 00:24:11.596
So that's how the project started developing for each batch of students.

00:24:12.196 --> 00:24:20.316
And then there are questions that young people ask, because they come from a certain background, right?

00:24:20.316 --> 00:24:24.226
From a certain social context and social economic context.

00:24:25.186 --> 00:24:33.576
So simple questions like so you don't have a tap in your house, why is that?

00:24:33.716 --> 00:24:35.726
And then those kind of real questions.

00:24:35.786 --> 00:24:38.316
And is this your own home?

00:24:38.826 --> 00:24:39.966
How did you build this house?

00:24:40.236 --> 00:24:46.286
So how do you have land but you have to still do labor in order to earn your living?

00:24:47.326 --> 00:24:48.986
So those kinds of questions.

00:24:48.986 --> 00:24:53.946
And why isn't enough for you if you are a farmer?

00:24:54.286 --> 00:24:57.276
Why do you need to hold multiple livelihoods?

00:24:58.706 --> 00:24:59.286
Right?

00:24:59.316 --> 00:25:02.426
So why isn't it just enough to have one job?

00:25:02.746 --> 00:25:03.806
But this is not a job.

00:25:03.826 --> 00:25:06.596
And then we started differentiating between job and livelihoods.

00:25:06.596 --> 00:25:11.006
And a certain richness, I think, for those children.

00:25:11.016 --> 00:25:11.376
Suraj: Yeah.

00:25:11.776 --> 00:25:15.146
Radha: Because they came back and they were like we'll never forget those things.

00:25:15.146 --> 00:25:16.211
I mean it's really informed.

00:25:16.526 --> 00:25:19.026
And it's informed what they've done with their lives, yeah.

00:25:20.116 --> 00:25:26.246
Suraj: And then you have this science that comes really contextualized socially, it's often historicized.

00:25:26.346 --> 00:25:30.216
Radha: Exactly, exactly.

00:25:31.926 --> 00:25:32.043
Suraj: Which then [inaudible]

00:25:32.043 --> 00:25:32.079
Radha: exactly.

00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:32.416
And there's the process of science, right?

00:25:32.886 --> 00:25:34.916
That there is a history of science.

00:25:34.916 --> 00:25:36.086
I mean this is how it evolved.

00:25:36.086 --> 00:25:37.266
I mean there is a process.

00:25:37.716 --> 00:25:39.426
Because you are observing.

00:25:39.916 --> 00:25:42.926
You have become aware of the situation around you.

00:25:43.286 --> 00:25:48.526
You have recorded either through interviews or visually.

00:25:48.686 --> 00:25:51.466
So you have evidence of what is the situation around you?

00:25:52.126 --> 00:25:54.736
And then it hones those skills as well.

00:25:55.096 --> 00:25:58.506
And then documentation and then analysis of the documentation.

00:25:58.556 --> 00:26:07.030
Inferring from your ... So the process of science and the practice of science can be very much embedded in projects like this as well.

00:26:07.030 --> 00:26:13.016
And at the same time, you suddenly realize, so I remember one of my students saying, "this is economics, no?

00:26:13.016 --> 00:26:14.986
I mean it's not environmental science."

00:26:14.996 --> 00:26:16.956
So we're like, "Okay, why is that?

00:26:16.956 --> 00:26:18.426
Let's talk about that a little bit."

00:26:19.906 --> 00:26:20.896
And then you begin to…

00:26:20.896 --> 00:26:21.431
Suraj: oh I love that.

00:26:21.606 --> 00:26:30.031
Radha: Yeah, and then you begin to see these boundaries dissolving and it's wonderful to be with young people who are discovering that.

00:26:30.276 --> 00:26:35.566
It comes to them because rather than you saying oh this is the discipline of this…

00:26:35.816 --> 00:26:37.536
Suraj: yeah, yeah.

00:26:37.646 --> 00:26:41.811
Yeah, I think it's quite fascinating also to think about.

00:26:41.976 --> 00:26:45.126
The last interview I sat with was with Chayanika Shah.

00:26:45.216 --> 00:26:46.186
I don't know if you-

00:26:46.266 --> 00:26:46.676
Radha: oh Chayanika, of course.

00:26:46.876 --> 00:26:48.016
She was in IIT Bombay.

00:26:48.016 --> 00:26:49.966
Yeah, yeah, she has experience, yes.

00:26:50.196 --> 00:26:55.236
Suraj: Yeah, we had sat with her to talk about LGBTQ+ justice and feminism.

00:26:55.236 --> 00:27:03.096
And it was quite interesting because that same kind of perspective on science in the social world that you're kind of sharing.

00:27:03.096 --> 00:27:07.756
But came through it from this feminist, feminist point theory of science.

00:27:08.016 --> 00:27:11.746
And then here we see it through this context of sustainability and climate change.

00:27:11.746 --> 00:27:18.326
So it's really interesting how when you try and bring these things to bear on solving persistent problems, you necessarily, not matter the questions.

00:27:18.326 --> 00:27:18.506
Radha: Absolutely, yeah.

00:27:19.916 --> 00:27:23.526
Suraj: So this seems like a good place to clarify a little bit about our terminology.

00:27:23.566 --> 00:27:33.616
So in that article, you make this distinction or try to unmake this distinction between sustainability and sustainable development.

00:27:33.626 --> 00:27:45.726
So it would be helpful to think like this kind of work you're doing, do you like to talk about it as sustainability education or environmental education, science education broadly, climate education, something else.

00:27:46.186 --> 00:27:49.236
What kinds of words do you like to use to describe these projects?

00:27:51.556 --> 00:27:56.966
Radha: I just use the word education because I have so much difficulty in slotting them.

00:27:56.976 --> 00:27:59.096
I mean it's a bit of a quandary for me.

00:27:59.276 --> 00:28:04.416
So I just think that, okay so I'm going to give you a bit of an anecdote.

00:28:04.416 --> 00:28:04.452
Suraj: You do, I love that.

00:28:04.456 --> 00:28:11.656
Radha: So there was this conversation, yes, it was this conversation I was having with a very dear friend who's now in the U.S.

00:28:12.256 --> 00:28:17.086
But he was, at that time, a senior professor at the university.

00:28:17.086 --> 00:28:22.826
And we were talking about sustainability and a Masters in Development or whatever, whatever.

00:28:23.476 --> 00:28:30.753
And so I said, "Why do you have to have a specialization in sustainability and a Masters in Development program?"

00:28:31.996 --> 00:28:32.941
"Well, what do we do?"

00:28:32.996 --> 00:28:33.546
I said, "No.

00:28:35.526 --> 00:28:40.576
I guess one should plan it as you have a Masters program and whatever, Development.

00:28:41.536 --> 00:28:44.156
You might start with a specialization in sustainability.

00:28:45.546 --> 00:28:56.216
But your plan should be that five years down the line, whatever Masters in Development you're doing, sustainability has to be embedded in it."

00:28:56.236 --> 00:28:59.746
So you don't have to have it as a specialization and a Masters in Development.

00:29:01.116 --> 00:29:08.276
All discourse, conversation, understanding of development has to stem from sustainability.

00:29:09.196 --> 00:29:11.946
So in a sense you have to dissolve it into that.

00:29:12.336 --> 00:29:12.546
Right?

00:29:12.546 --> 00:29:22.236
So then I'm not saying that oh this is a Masters in Development with specialization in public policy, with specialization in sustainability, with specialization in x, y, z.

00:29:22.236 --> 00:29:28.906
So I mean this was something that I just, I couldn't get my head around.

00:29:28.906 --> 00:29:31.076
And I was like so why are we doing this?

00:29:31.196 --> 00:29:34.376
So he laughed and said, "That's not happening.

00:29:34.376 --> 00:29:36.336
So we have to do this."

00:29:38.206 --> 00:29:45.811
but the thing is that it's about what education should be, right?

00:29:46.086 --> 00:29:47.536
I mean it should be about.

00:29:47.806 --> 00:30:00.220
So I wanted to just add one point to the previous thoughts that we were talking about where you talking about Chayanika’s LGBTQ situation and this whole thing that we were talking about.

00:30:00.220 --> 00:30:05.676
Another element that actually emerged very strongly with these students was the element of caste.

00:30:07.166 --> 00:30:07.781
Suraj: Tell us about that.

00:30:07.781 --> 00:30:17.606
Radha: Because you have in the communities around there, both at the school and also in other work that I have done in other states like Andhra Pradesh and Telangana.

00:30:17.606 --> 00:30:20.696
Caste, of course, is deeply embedded in our system.

00:30:20.696 --> 00:30:25.456
I mean a lot of people in urban areas think there is no caste in urban areas which is not true.

00:30:26.096 --> 00:30:28.796
But in rural areas, it's much more in your face, right?

00:30:28.796 --> 00:30:33.846
Because you even have villages which are called Dalit Wada which are outside the main village?

00:30:33.846 --> 00:30:33.976
Right?

00:30:34.006 --> 00:30:37.586
Even today you have it in Andhra Pradesh and Telangana and many other places in the country.

00:30:38.086 --> 00:30:49.266
So now when you are sitting with a group of people who are part of one village.

00:30:49.296 --> 00:30:53.946
And then you're talking there and then you move to the other one and then they ask you, "Oh where did you come from?"

00:30:53.946 --> 00:30:54.860
And then you tell them you were there.

00:30:54.896 --> 00:30:57.086
They said that was a Dalit village.

00:30:57.446 --> 00:31:01.846
So then the questions the students ask why do they have to mention that, right?

00:31:02.366 --> 00:31:09.006
So then we started talking about how even today, a person of another caste will not eat from a Dalit home.

00:31:09.396 --> 00:31:13.486
So then we went back to some of the Dalit households and we started talking about it.

00:31:13.676 --> 00:31:14.836
And they said, "Yes, that is true.

00:31:15.366 --> 00:31:16.516
They won't eat in our homes."

00:31:17.246 --> 00:31:21.986
and of course now, there was one person who said this.

00:31:21.996 --> 00:31:25.966
He said, "There are two places where caste gets dissolved."

00:31:26.026 --> 00:31:26.446
I said, "Where?"

00:31:26.446 --> 00:31:29.216
He said, "When we go and deliver milk.

00:31:29.766 --> 00:31:32.436
So these milk collection centers."

00:31:32.436 --> 00:31:37.616
He said, "Nobody cares if it's a Dalit family's cow or a buffalo.

00:31:39.186 --> 00:31:43.996
It's all going into the same larger pool which then gets pasteurized or whatever."

00:31:44.356 --> 00:31:46.191
he said, "But it's coming from my house, right?

00:31:46.336 --> 00:31:47.886
And I'm Dalit."

00:31:47.936 --> 00:31:49.256
He said, "That is one place."

00:31:49.346 --> 00:32:07.216
And he said, "And the other place is when we have to put our-" He said, "Earlier, when he was younger-" He said, "We didn't even have access to water first because you can't go to the same place where everybody's going."

00:32:07.796 --> 00:32:15.456
but he said, "Today, whether you're Dalit or whether you're not Dalit, you have to stand in that queue to fill your pot from the tanker."

00:32:17.126 --> 00:32:19.236
He said, "That's a bit of a levelizer."

00:32:20.506 --> 00:32:24.856
I mean the point is if it's about this idea of resource.

00:32:24.956 --> 00:32:28.446
And who owns resource and on what basis do they resource?

00:32:29.206 --> 00:32:32.206
Whether it's land or whether it is access to water or anything, right?

00:32:33.606 --> 00:32:35.246
I mean access to any resource.

00:32:36.116 --> 00:32:54.076
So I think the close, the very tight link between access to resource for survival and caste and class in India.

00:32:54.956 --> 00:33:02.316
I think those things became very evident for many of the students who were working on these projects that it's so deeply embedded.

00:33:02.346 --> 00:33:03.966
And even something like eating.

00:33:05.346 --> 00:33:06.916
You can't.

00:33:06.966 --> 00:33:13.224
And then, of course, we then moved on to diet and what kind of food and how are they different and why are they different and all of that sort of thing.

00:33:13.224 --> 00:33:13.746
But yeah.

00:33:14.016 --> 00:33:14.666
So caste.

00:33:15.076 --> 00:33:16.506
And I think that so yeah.

00:33:16.846 --> 00:33:29.306
Suraj: I'm glad that you brought our attention to caste because I think these questions, of course, necessarily have this ... If you're to contextualize science socially without this lens towards disparate impact, you've missed something.

00:33:29.306 --> 00:33:39.670
And I think it, you know you've pointed out that, of course, the gap between those who are the cause of ... I don't want to cause.

00:33:39.670 --> 00:33:43.206
Radha: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

00:33:43.206 --> 00:33:47.746
Suraj: The cause of these emissions and the people who are most affected by these changes is quite a large gap.

00:33:48.816 --> 00:33:48.906
Radha: Absolutely.

00:33:48.906 --> 00:33:54.766
Suraj: And arguably part of why action has not been taken at the scope that is arguably necessary.

00:33:55.136 --> 00:33:56.791
Radha: Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

00:33:57.296 --> 00:34:06.946
Suraj: So please feel free to keep raising some of those issues around caste and equity as we continue our conversation because I think it's really fundamental to what it means to contextualize science education.

00:34:07.916 --> 00:34:15.023
So I'm trying to think where I want to go from here because I have many options ahead of me.

00:34:15.236 --> 00:34:24.016
I think, so we did talk a little bit, that question was around what we call this environmental education, sustainability education.

00:34:24.036 --> 00:34:25.406
Radha: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:26.166 --> 00:34:31.946
Suraj: And so your background is in science and then now you're in development, programs.

00:34:31.956 --> 00:34:33.816
But so much of your work is in education.

00:34:33.816 --> 00:34:45.696
So it might be helpful to just hear for a little bit about what field or research community you tend to write towards or if there's theories, thinkers, schools of thought that really influence your thinking as you decide.

00:34:45.716 --> 00:34:47.466
Radha: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:47.466 --> 00:34:53.326
When I saw that question, I was thinking huh I really ... So there are two things that I'd like to say here.

00:34:53.506 --> 00:34:57.336
One is that in terms of thinkers, et cetera.

00:34:57.716 --> 00:35:06.436
So one, I think a very profound ... So before that, of course, before I really came formally into education.

00:35:07.156 --> 00:35:26.246
I mean after I came in formally into education through the school et cetera, Paulo Freire, I read him as soon as I ... So that really left a very deep impact on my understanding of how does science work in this milieu, right?

00:35:26.916 --> 00:35:29.036
And how do you actually get it to work in this milieu.

00:35:29.466 --> 00:35:30.866
So Freire is one.

00:35:30.876 --> 00:35:46.656
But then from when I think about my understanding and my now over zealous emphasis with students on a systems view of life, that really comes from Fritjof Capra's book, Systems View of Life.

00:35:47.286 --> 00:35:54.136
And the course that he taught which I actually took which is about a 12 week course called the Systems View of Life.

00:35:54.176 --> 00:36:01.516
And that really allowed me to actually formalize in my head the framework.

00:36:02.616 --> 00:36:10.616
I did struggle a little bit with this idea of how do you actually, what is the kind of framework that you could teach with?

00:36:12.156 --> 00:36:18.996
So I used to keep them looking at it as we need to look at the world around us almost like a spider web, right?

00:36:19.196 --> 00:36:23.092
So we're just woven together in just this web as opposed to a linear thing, right?

00:36:23.216 --> 00:36:28.786
I mean that idea was very much a part of my understanding.

00:36:28.786 --> 00:36:33.216
But how do you articulate it into a formal framework of education, right?

00:36:33.486 --> 00:36:59.326
And so the systems view of life and the nested systems approach where you're looking at the individual and education, or the practice of the individual being embedded really in the social and political system, economic system, which is then embedded in ecological system and then the larger Earth system and the Earth system processes.

00:36:59.826 --> 00:37:08.576
So that is one thing, I think, which has really informed my subsequent articulations and understanding.

00:37:08.576 --> 00:37:13.276
Suraj: And maybe here briefly you can, I mean you've just did this, but maybe you can just [inaudible] too.

00:37:13.886 --> 00:37:19.444
You can tell it what is systems view of life and how that is different from a more [inaudible]

00:37:19.444 --> 00:37:20.355
?
Radha: Right, right.

00:37:20.355 --> 00:37:34.326
So what has happened is that, of course, ever since the 70s, I think, at ... I mean there's a fundamental difference between environmental movements in the west and in India, right?

00:37:34.546 --> 00:37:45.486
I mean in India and also in many countries in Africa, the environmental movement actually emerged as a threat to livelihoods and to very existence in that sense, right?

00:37:45.856 --> 00:37:49.826
So it actually emerged from a struggle for livelihoods and resources at that level.

00:37:49.826 --> 00:37:51.456
And that's how the movements began.

00:37:51.456 --> 00:37:55.536
So they were social movements and ecological movements were very closely tied.

00:37:56.066 --> 00:37:59.956
In the west, the environmental movement had a very strong ecological focus.

00:38:00.036 --> 00:38:06.976
And it was about wilderness and separation of the humans from the pristine wilderness and all of that.

00:38:06.976 --> 00:38:08.986
Like John Mears writings and you know all of that.

00:38:08.986 --> 00:38:11.576
So there is a very distinct difference.

00:38:11.866 --> 00:38:27.846
Now that understanding of what do ecological movements and what do environmental movements and, therefore, environmental education, that there is a social, ecological context to that from an Indian perspective.

00:38:29.206 --> 00:38:31.226
So that is one level, right?

00:38:31.516 --> 00:38:42.376
Now implicit in that is an understanding that you don't look at the environment as air, water, soil.

00:38:42.436 --> 00:38:44.066
You don't look at it like that, right?

00:38:45.086 --> 00:38:56.876
Now in the early days of the movement and also in India, scientists were looking at it as air quality, water quality, solid waste, cleaning.

00:38:56.886 --> 00:39:00.046
Like for example, the superfunds in the U.S.

00:39:00.416 --> 00:39:05.516
which were used to clean up waste dumps where toxic waste were dumped, et cetera.

00:39:05.896 --> 00:39:22.256
So until you understood the environment as a multimedia, integrated of an entity, we always approached it as these individual pieces that need be dealt with, right?

00:39:22.706 --> 00:39:28.246
And then of course, you discover that hey I cleaned this and I'm actually producing something else somewhere else [inaudible] you look at it.

00:39:29.206 --> 00:39:31.646
And so that was the kind of approach.

00:39:31.646 --> 00:39:42.176
And then slowly from there people began to realize that okay, we need to really take a more integrated and the word holistic started coming into our vocabulary, right?

00:39:43.176 --> 00:39:57.756
Now all of that moved on, but there wasn't any clear articulation of what one could think of as it was very hard to think.

00:39:58.106 --> 00:40:04.466
There wasn't a concrete framework through which one could actually look at something and say, "How do I really understand it?

00:40:04.506 --> 00:40:08.596
What does it really mean when I say if I clean air, it becomes water.

00:40:08.596 --> 00:40:12.146
And then after dealing with that, what does all of this actually mean and how do you?"

00:40:12.146 --> 00:40:12.976
Suraj: yeah, it's overwhelming.

00:40:12.976 --> 00:40:14.296
It's either just [inaudible] or everything.

00:40:14.296 --> 00:40:14.396
How to scope out [inaudible]

00:40:14.396 --> 00:40:14.416
?
Radha: Exactly.

00:40:14.436 --> 00:40:22.446
Yes, and also to escape from [inaudible] but everything is connected.

00:40:22.726 --> 00:40:25.693
Well, yeah, it is, but I mean really how you know.

00:40:25.916 --> 00:40:27.886
If you just say that, how the hell where do you approach?

00:40:28.256 --> 00:40:28.991
Where do you start, right?

00:40:29.386 --> 00:40:29.786
Suraj: Right.

00:40:29.916 --> 00:40:32.895
Radha: But then we had all these other frameworks.

00:40:34.165 --> 00:40:39.075
The planetary boundary framework, the doughnut framework when people really began to realize that okay, we're pushing really hard.

00:40:39.085 --> 00:40:40.635
Climate change is a reality.

00:40:41.285 --> 00:40:43.685
So then you looked at Earth processes.

00:40:43.685 --> 00:40:47.115
And this comes from Earth scientists and chemists actually.

00:40:48.285 --> 00:40:53.175
Like the idea of bio geochemical cycles, the carbon cycle, nitrogen cycle, water cycle.

00:40:53.175 --> 00:40:58.355
And then you have the cyclic approach, which also has a very strong ecological focus to it.

00:40:59.025 --> 00:41:15.365
So then the Stockholm Environmental Institute and chemists and geo chemists came out with the planetary boundary framework which basically said there are these nine Earth processes and we have to function within a safe limit for each of these processes.

00:41:15.365 --> 00:41:16.502
And we are already breaching several of these boundaries.

00:41:16.502 --> 00:41:35.435
But even that didn't really bring the social, ecological connections because a lot of people found frameworks like that very dense and having a tough time.

00:41:35.435 --> 00:41:37.135
How do people arrive at these estimates?

00:41:37.145 --> 00:41:43.045
It just was not tangible for them to really understand what is this thing, right?

00:41:44.615 --> 00:41:51.115
But going back, if you take your understanding of what a system is, right?

00:41:52.805 --> 00:41:59.205
Where you have these relationships, something comes in and then causes change.

00:41:59.255 --> 00:42:14.165
And there are these multiple parts which are related, which have relationships, which when they are together in a certain relationship, function in a way that is distinct from each part functioning, right?

00:42:14.985 --> 00:42:18.555
So then that whole thing about the whole is much greater than the sum of its parts.

00:42:22.515 --> 00:42:25.145
And then you look at a natural ecosystem.

00:42:25.165 --> 00:42:28.355
I'm just saying natural, but really you look at the ecosystem around you, right?

00:42:29.185 --> 00:42:38.005
If you look at that, you begin to see that there are so many intricate connections, dependencies, inter dependencies.

00:42:39.615 --> 00:42:45.315
What one may look at as predator prey relationship , but actually there is a dependency there.

00:42:46.115 --> 00:42:48.885
There are different kinds of associations and relationships.

00:42:49.495 --> 00:42:55.850
And it's not just between living system and living creatures, but also with what we call nonliving, right?

00:42:56.495 --> 00:43:03.385
For instance, is soil living or nonliving?

00:43:03.385 --> 00:43:03.399
Difficult to say, right?

00:43:03.399 --> 00:43:03.407
Suraj: Is what?

00:43:03.407 --> 00:43:03.410
Soil?

00:43:03.410 --> 00:43:03.414
Radha: Soil.

00:43:03.414 --> 00:43:03.725
Is soil living or nonliving?

00:43:03.735 --> 00:43:06.025
Difficult to say because there is life in it.

00:43:06.735 --> 00:43:07.690
Suraj: I thought you said oil.

00:43:07.690 --> 00:43:08.295
And that was a very different [inaudible] but actually the same question-

00:43:09.465 --> 00:43:10.575
Radha: well that's true.

00:43:11.735 --> 00:43:13.125
After all, oil - it's fossils, right?

00:43:14.305 --> 00:43:19.145
So then now how do you really then understand it a little better?

00:43:19.615 --> 00:43:31.015
So if you were to take this ecosystem understanding and place it in the context of the planet, and place it in a socio ecological, like we said in the beginning, science is a social endeavor.

00:43:31.475 --> 00:43:34.275
And we are creatures of social ecological systems.

00:43:34.275 --> 00:43:40.645
We are not separate from, I mean it's so hard to really even think of separating the two, right?

00:43:41.085 --> 00:43:43.125
But we do it for our convenience, right?

00:43:43.125 --> 00:43:43.445
Suraj: Yeah.

00:43:43.995 --> 00:43:51.735
Radha: So then how do you understand this overwhelming, range of these relationships and where do I begin?

00:43:51.745 --> 00:43:52.765
And it's all fine.

00:43:53.415 --> 00:43:57.265
So then I liked this systems view framework.

00:43:57.265 --> 00:44:09.435
It appealed to me because it allowed me to actually have a schematic to show that here is, if you have a nested system, so that means one inside the other.

00:44:09.705 --> 00:44:11.915
A bit like the Russian matryoshka dolls.

00:44:12.045 --> 00:44:13.415
You open one and there's another one.

00:44:13.415 --> 00:44:15.605
You open one, there's ... So literally that, right?

00:44:15.605 --> 00:44:24.295
I mean the individual or the household is embedded in the larger system which is not independent.

00:44:24.395 --> 00:44:27.725
Which is also dependent ultimately on Earth processes.

00:44:27.975 --> 00:44:35.225
But the ecological, social, economic, political, ecological connection, how do you show that?

00:44:36.295 --> 00:44:44.465
But if you were to show it as this one inside the other inside the other inside the other, then you suddenly see oh yeah, that's true.

00:44:44.845 --> 00:44:46.195
There is all these relationships.

00:44:46.635 --> 00:44:56.495
So let me move forward with an understanding that the political system is a creation of the social system.

00:44:58.075 --> 00:44:59.435
As is the economic system.

00:44:59.435 --> 00:45:02.565
Those are constructs of human beings, right?

00:45:02.945 --> 00:45:10.445
But the ecological system and the Earth system are realities of a very different kind.

00:45:10.795 --> 00:45:11.985
They are not your constructs.

00:45:11.985 --> 00:45:14.295
They are not constructs of the human mind.

00:45:15.855 --> 00:45:16.795
They are a given.

00:45:17.275 --> 00:45:19.035
There are natural laws that govern it.

00:45:19.745 --> 00:45:21.495
But I can change the political system.

00:45:22.465 --> 00:45:24.065
It's like what Harari says.

00:45:24.355 --> 00:45:30.845
But you all know Harari and Fritjof Capra, I think my understanding of life is kind of sorted.

00:45:31.315 --> 00:45:38.025
But I mean it's saying that there is something that's reality.

00:45:38.565 --> 00:45:46.695
And then there is other things that are human constructs which somehow we have begun to believe is also a law of nature.

00:45:46.745 --> 00:45:47.155
It's not.

00:45:49.815 --> 00:45:55.835
So that clarity emerged from this understanding of a systems.

00:45:55.975 --> 00:46:10.115
Meaning you look at life like an ecosystem, but a natural ecosystem, when you look at ecosystems, you're looking at it as creatures other than the human.

00:46:10.695 --> 00:46:20.615
But if you were to look at human and the non human environment around you as one unit, how do you look at it?

00:46:20.885 --> 00:46:32.625
Because if you were to take that same understanding of an ecosystem, prey predator relationships, neutralism, symbiosis, parasitism, all that exists in human society.

00:46:32.625 --> 00:46:37.975
So can we understand that and then understand our social system, our political system.

00:46:38.615 --> 00:46:43.265
Then what happens is when you really get to it, you look at your food system, okay?

00:46:44.295 --> 00:46:47.285
I'm really veering off so you'll have to indulge me a little bit here.

00:46:48.465 --> 00:46:57.685
So it's like, for instance, with the grade eight students in Rishi Valley and with the grade eight students of the government school nearby, we did a project called Where Does My Food Come From?

00:46:58.595 --> 00:46:59.875
Simple question, right?

00:47:00.105 --> 00:47:04.695
But when the kids started exploring, they were like oh my God.

00:47:04.695 --> 00:47:05.675
This is so complex.

00:47:05.675 --> 00:47:08.795
Because we wrote down a menu.

00:47:08.855 --> 00:47:11.025
We listed the food that we eat every day.

00:47:11.295 --> 00:47:12.555
And then we said let's break it down.

00:47:12.585 --> 00:47:13.545
Let's get the recipes.

00:47:13.555 --> 00:47:14.695
Let's look at the ingredients.

00:47:14.725 --> 00:47:16.675
Let's find out where the ingredients come from.

00:47:17.195 --> 00:47:18.045
Who grows them?

00:47:18.045 --> 00:47:18.815
Where do they grow?

00:47:18.815 --> 00:47:20.615
Under what conditions do they grow?

00:47:21.025 --> 00:47:22.705
What is needed to grow them?

00:47:22.735 --> 00:47:24.345
What kind of weather do they need?

00:47:24.375 --> 00:47:25.645
What are seasonal foods?

00:47:26.195 --> 00:47:36.635
And then you suddenly discover that and says Gosh, like why do we have chocolate and mozzarella cheese from Bangalore for this urban set of kids?

00:47:37.065 --> 00:47:46.175
And then you shared your information with the rural kids and then you suddenly realized that their footprint is actually only up to the 25 kilometer away town.

00:47:46.535 --> 00:47:51.895
And mine is like all the way to Bangalore or the dark chocolate which comes from I don't know where, right?

00:47:52.765 --> 00:47:53.075
Suraj: Yeah.

00:47:53.445 --> 00:47:53.845
Radha: Okay.

00:47:54.075 --> 00:47:57.945
So then you suddenly begin to think that oh this is exhausting.

00:47:58.705 --> 00:48:04.295
And so to be more sustainable and if I want to keep a smaller footprint, I should be local, eat local vegetables.

00:48:04.825 --> 00:48:06.355
But oh that is so boring.

00:48:06.365 --> 00:48:08.885
It's only gourds and tomatoes.

00:48:08.885 --> 00:48:11.035
So that is some realities.

00:48:11.075 --> 00:48:13.965
But then we started understanding the idea of trade off.

00:48:17.435 --> 00:48:27.925
And for young children who are about, say, 13, 14, the idea of trade off is a very interesting one because they think it's a compromise and not a great thing.

00:48:27.925 --> 00:48:33.875
But then you begin to then talk about other issues in life and you say actually, everything you do in life is a trade off.

00:48:33.875 --> 00:48:35.545
And it's a good thing.

00:48:36.025 --> 00:48:37.395
There are no definitives.

00:48:37.985 --> 00:48:38.955
It's not black and white.

00:48:38.955 --> 00:48:44.965
Everything is you weigh pros and cons and you pick the one with the least cons, right?

00:48:45.495 --> 00:48:46.735
And so then that's a trade off.

00:48:47.135 --> 00:48:55.785
So when we studied this, we suddenly realized all these relationships of the farmer, the conditions under which the farmer is growing it.

00:48:56.015 --> 00:48:58.100
And then you had farmers right outside this whole campus.

00:48:58.205 --> 00:49:02.685
So you actually could go and see how do they grow the paddy or how do they grow the millets.

00:49:02.845 --> 00:49:04.215
Why should we eat more millets?

00:49:04.755 --> 00:49:08.515
Because they're grown around you and they're more water conserving.

00:49:09.045 --> 00:49:12.355
So then the school menu changed and the kids began eating differently.

00:49:12.715 --> 00:49:15.648
So that is the systems view of life.

00:49:15.648 --> 00:49:18.910
When you begin to connect, make the connections, yeah, yeah.

00:49:18.910 --> 00:49:21.715
Suraj: That's a very illuminating example.

00:49:21.725 --> 00:49:22.815
Radha: Long story short.

00:49:23.695 --> 00:49:24.935
Suraj: No that's very useful.

00:49:24.945 --> 00:49:28.505
Have you written anywhere about that, the food project?

00:49:28.635 --> 00:49:30.095
Radha: Yes, I have written.

00:49:30.125 --> 00:49:33.335
It was a report for a group.

00:49:33.355 --> 00:49:35.605
But then there is this thing called Sawaliram.

00:49:36.795 --> 00:49:38.125
I don't know if you've come across it.

00:49:38.125 --> 00:49:44.135
It's okay, so in the 70s, there is this science project called Hosangabad Science Project right.

00:49:44.385 --> 00:49:49.035
Which was about making science education accessible to rural children, really.

00:49:49.235 --> 00:49:56.455
So it was a lot of the work was in Hindi and they brought out a magazine called Sandarbh, which even comes today.

00:49:56.925 --> 00:50:01.245
And some excellent science educators came together to make science accessible.

00:50:01.245 --> 00:50:02.990
This was in the 70s.

00:50:03.345 --> 00:50:05.245
And then it became Eklavya.

00:50:06.505 --> 00:50:07.265
Suraj: Oh okay.

00:50:07.615 --> 00:50:08.105
Radha: Eklavya Yeah.

00:50:08.605 --> 00:50:16.805
And then there used to be these postcards in those days where you wrote your question and sent it to Eklavya and you got an answer.

00:50:17.755 --> 00:50:18.655
So now-

00:50:18.945 --> 00:50:21.515
Suraj: there are some things that we should bring back.

00:50:21.705 --> 00:50:22.215
Radha: I think.

00:50:22.525 --> 00:50:23.475
Suraj: Like some things are actually much better.

00:50:23.885 --> 00:50:23.915
Radha: Yes.

00:50:23.915 --> 00:50:25.205
So much better.

00:50:25.515 --> 00:50:28.855
But now, so that was called Sawaliram questions.

00:50:30.205 --> 00:50:36.845
But now, some of the people have actually created an online version of the Salawiram.

00:50:37.655 --> 00:50:42.855
S-A-W, just put it into the chat box and as you can actually see it.

00:50:42.875 --> 00:50:45.855
S-A-W-A-L-I-R-A-M.

00:50:45.865 --> 00:50:46.195
Sawaliram, yeah.

00:50:46.685 --> 00:50:50.385
So Sawaliram, it's a friend now Jayshree Ramdas.

00:50:52.885 --> 00:50:54.625
So she had requested.

00:50:54.925 --> 00:50:57.275
So I've actually written articles on it for them.

00:50:58.215 --> 00:50:58.565
Suraj: Okay.

00:50:58.635 --> 00:50:59.565
Radha: It's on their website.

00:50:59.625 --> 00:51:00.385
Yeah, it's on their website.

00:51:00.735 --> 00:51:01.935
You can see pictures as well.

00:51:01.935 --> 00:51:02.418
Photographs as well.

00:51:02.525 --> 00:51:03.455
Suraj: All right, super.

00:51:03.455 --> 00:51:06.845
I think that's a really, really illuminating example.

00:51:06.885 --> 00:51:17.515
And this is a sidebar, but I work very closely with Cindy Hmelo-Silver, who is one of the people who talks a lot about and writes about problem based learning.

00:51:19.065 --> 00:51:23.685
And her background is in aquatic ecosystems and respiratory therapy.

00:51:23.685 --> 00:51:30.615
And it's one of the places where like we really get to re-imagine what it actually means to do science education.

00:51:30.615 --> 00:51:42.575
This maybe points to why you resist the idea of classifying of what type of [inaudible] . Any sufficiently deep science question becomes-

00:51:42.585 --> 00:51:44.065
Radha: a larger question, exactly.

00:51:44.065 --> 00:51:44.415
Sure.

00:51:44.415 --> 00:51:44.555
Absolutely.

00:51:44.555 --> 00:51:49.225
Suraj: And I think your food example starts with a question of ... Well, actually it started as a social question.

00:51:49.225 --> 00:51:50.225
Where does our food come from?

00:51:50.225 --> 00:51:50.445
Radha: Correct.

00:51:50.855 --> 00:51:54.385
Suraj: What grows where becomes thinking about what do we eat-

00:51:54.775 --> 00:51:55.345
Radha: exactly.

00:51:55.535 --> 00:51:56.745
... Suraj: As a natural consequence of that question.

00:51:56.945 --> 00:51:58.195
Radha: Exactly, exactly.

00:51:58.945 --> 00:52:04.885
Suraj: But I'm glad we were just talking about some of these publications because this offers me an opportunity to change the topic entirely.

00:52:05.365 --> 00:52:10.285
Earlier, you had talked about your role with I Wonder as one of your key roles.

00:52:10.295 --> 00:52:22.125
So for our audience, I think I Wonder is a really ... I've had the chance to look at your article in there and there was, oh now I feel bad, but there was somebody else who we interviewed whose article I had read in I Wonder.

00:52:22.335 --> 00:52:23.465
Oh no, it was Deborah.

00:52:23.505 --> 00:52:24.535
Deborah had an article.

00:52:24.535 --> 00:52:24.825
Radha: Deborah, of course, yes.

00:52:24.905 --> 00:52:25.435
Deborah, yes

00:52:25.645 --> 00:52:29.165
Suraj: so it wasn't somebody we ... Now I feel really bad.

00:52:29.165 --> 00:52:31.425
So maybe you can tell us a little bit about why.

00:52:31.615 --> 00:52:33.575
And it's a relatively new publication, no

00:52:33.745 --> 00:52:34.745
Radha: yes, it is-

00:52:34.775 --> 00:52:37.495
Suraj: so maybe you can tell us a little bit about it and why?

00:52:37.505 --> 00:52:39.435
Radha: Yeah, 2015, '14.

00:52:39.585 --> 00:52:41.525
Sure, actually [crosstalk]

00:52:41.535 --> 00:52:46.115
.
Suraj: Why made and for what purpose and who contributes and that kind of thing?

00:52:46.185 --> 00:52:47.272
Radha: Sure, sure no problem.

00:52:47.555 --> 00:52:50.185
So I Wonder actually started off as a science magazine.

00:52:50.565 --> 00:52:54.735
And it started off as a popular science magazine for any interested reader, right?

00:52:55.415 --> 00:53:03.985
But over the last three years, it has actually changed its function to really be ... Three years?

00:53:04.155 --> 00:53:05.635
No, I think four years actually.

00:53:05.895 --> 00:53:07.235
But anyway, over the last few years.

00:53:07.785 --> 00:53:13.875
It has changed its role to become a science magazine for middle and high school teachers.

00:53:14.355 --> 00:53:14.795
Okay?

00:53:15.305 --> 00:53:27.665
And in the last two years, we've really narrowed it down even further to be relevant to field teachers, particularly in rural areas and government schools.

00:53:28.465 --> 00:53:29.285
Suraj: So why these

00:53:29.335 --> 00:53:32.005
Radha: because this is Azim Premji University.

00:53:32.005 --> 00:53:40.385
And Azim Premji University, it really has a very strong mandate of justice, equality and sustainability, right?

00:53:40.895 --> 00:53:57.145
And they have education research centers in multiple locations in the country, resource centers, education resource centers, where they work with local schools and teachers.

00:53:57.145 --> 00:53:58.225
Teacher education.

00:53:58.745 --> 00:54:05.945
And really reducing that inequality which we were just talking about in terms of access to quality education.

00:54:06.535 --> 00:54:10.395
So in that sense, since that is the mandate at the focus.

00:54:10.395 --> 00:54:24.755
So all of the magazines that Azim Premji University brings out now increasingly wanting to get more and more focused on addressing the needs of schools and education communities.

00:54:25.495 --> 00:54:42.695
And so now, we've also changed the composition of the editorial board to include more representation from the field so that we have a much better sense of what is their need?

00:54:43.335 --> 00:54:44.805
What is it that they're looking for?

00:54:44.805 --> 00:54:46.625
What kind of resources are they looking for?

00:54:46.835 --> 00:54:55.695
What are the gaps that need to be filled in order to be able to ... So it's very exciting because it is ... See earlier, we had scientists.

00:54:56.405 --> 00:54:59.625
Scientists, educators and mostly scientists contributing.

00:55:00.155 --> 00:55:10.955
So what happens is that scientists who are excellent, really good at their work and their research, but probably ... And also some of them write very well.

00:55:11.675 --> 00:55:21.765
But then when it comes to writing for teachers and schools and particularly schools and teachers from these backgrounds.

00:55:21.765 --> 00:55:26.615
From the much less privileged backgrounds, it's a completely different kettle of fish, right?

00:55:26.615 --> 00:55:28.655
I mean you have to write in a very different way.

00:55:29.555 --> 00:55:36.985
If you're writing on astronomy, et cetera, you have to actually be able to provide information and resources that teachers can use directly.

00:55:37.415 --> 00:55:39.755
Because they're grappling with the curriculum anyway, right?

00:55:39.955 --> 00:55:42.385
They are under a lot of resource constraints.

00:55:42.395 --> 00:55:55.615
So now, in fact, this latest issue, issue six, the feedback we've been getting about it is that wow, it's got like so many posters and activity sheets and the articles are so accessible.

00:55:55.615 --> 00:56:10.495
And it's about education and pedagogy and this is just really ... So it looks like we've finally slowly and steadily been moving in that direction of it really being a more accessible resource for practicing teachers, yeah.

00:56:11.725 --> 00:56:12.505
Suraj: Okay, great.

00:56:13.665 --> 00:56:19.765
Part of why I asked for that is just that I think what I have seen of I Wonder is really wonderful.

00:56:19.815 --> 00:56:37.915
And I think, just to zoom out for a little bit, this project that we're doing where we're doing these interviews and stuff is part of this much larger initiative around ... That started as like how can we get more people from countries that aren't well represented in the learning sciences field involved in our team?

00:56:38.275 --> 00:56:47.565
Our thinking around the whole issue has really changed over time to become like what have we not been seeing and thinking about that we can talk to be people and learn more about.

00:56:47.565 --> 00:56:50.915
And we've been doing these interviews for now, almost two years.

00:56:51.005 --> 00:56:52.345
This is off the record.

00:56:52.375 --> 00:56:56.140
I mean we're otherwise on the record but we'll cut it in post.

00:56:56.305 --> 00:56:57.185
Radha: Yeah, exactly.

00:56:57.185 --> 00:57:06.495
Suraj: But our thinking has so changed about ... And even the interview questions that we've brought to people have really changed and to hear more of these stories and things.

00:57:06.495 --> 00:57:21.205
And all of that is to say what we're really hoping to do is along side these interviews, put up these things that say, "You know, these North American and white and European communities don't have a monopoly on good educational resources."

00:57:21.615 --> 00:57:22.355
Radha: that's right, that's right, that's right.

00:57:22.395 --> 00:57:36.375
Suraj: So I think I Wonder is a great example of the kind of super educational resource, something that I think people even in North America and Europe would find really useful in their educational activities, but would never even think to look for.

00:57:36.945 --> 00:57:36.995
Radha: Correct.

00:57:37.355 --> 00:57:39.355
Suraj: So that's the kind of thing that we're hoping to elevate.

00:57:39.355 --> 00:57:39.595
Radha: Great.

00:57:39.725 --> 00:57:41.995
Oh that would be ... That's an excellent ... Yeah.

00:57:43.465 --> 00:57:47.235
Suraj: So we're already at an hour if you can believe.

00:57:48.135 --> 00:57:49.395
Radha: Having a lot of fun clearly.

00:57:50.075 --> 00:57:50.185
Suraj: Yeah.

00:57:52.425 --> 00:57:53.005
Well, I am but I don't know about you.

00:57:53.005 --> 00:57:58.205
Radha: No, no, but I mean you're giving me an opportunity to free float and talk and share my thoughts with you.

00:57:58.475 --> 00:58:06.135
Suraj: Well then you'll love this next question, but let me just outline a plan for the next half hour so that we're respectful of your time and cut off.

00:58:06.145 --> 00:58:13.295
So I think I have one more question that is, I would say, substantial in nature I'd like to you talk about your theory and all like this.

00:58:13.855 --> 00:58:18.415
Then I think I'll ask you to give a little bit advice to new researchers.

00:58:18.415 --> 00:58:25.725
And then what we'll do is in our last few minutes, I'll just sort of repeat some of the main questions and give you an opportunity to add anything that you feel like-

00:58:26.265 --> 00:58:27.015
Radha: yeah, yeah.

00:58:27.035 --> 00:58:41.485
Suraj: So the next substantial, last, big question that I want to think about is across your work and even your story today, there really is this sense of place and this idea that you've written about and you were telling in your story with the students.

00:58:41.515 --> 00:58:44.475
You walk around and you see what there is….

00:58:44.475 --> 00:58:54.265
And in that piece, I think it was in Journal of Krishnamurti Schools where you talked about sitting in the forest for some amount of time and just looking around.

00:58:54.505 --> 00:59:00.315
In the learning sciences recently, there has been some really wonderful work around these embodied questions.

00:59:00.315 --> 00:59:02.905
Questions about place and place based education.

00:59:05.035 --> 00:59:07.885
Or maybe place based education isn't the right term for it.

00:59:07.955 --> 00:59:08.301
Radha: Yes, it is.

00:59:08.355 --> 00:59:08.995
It is, yes.

00:59:08.995 --> 00:59:11.415
Suraj: But I have this question in two parts.

00:59:11.435 --> 00:59:15.995
The first part, and I'll ask them both and then ask them again so we don't go totally off the rails.

00:59:16.095 --> 00:59:16.685
Radha: Sure, sure, sure.

00:59:16.685 --> 00:59:30.625
Suraj: So the first part of the question is just is there anything about this embodied, place based approach that you take that you think, thinking in specifically these Indian contexts, we might be able to learn something new if we focus?

00:59:30.625 --> 00:59:38.525
And then the second piece of that is to offer an opportunity to think about what your work has been like in the past few years when it was been online and all like that.

00:59:38.525 --> 00:59:50.015
So the first part, what about your work in these Indian contexts around these place based and embodied experiences might we be able to learn from outside of the Indian context?

00:59:50.385 --> 00:59:50.925
Radha: Okay.

00:59:51.045 --> 00:59:53.935
So one of the things about place based learning.

00:59:53.945 --> 01:00:02.305
And I really have embraced that term a lot these days because I find it really says what it is.

01:00:03.575 --> 01:00:05.595
India, of course, with all its diversity.

01:00:06.195 --> 01:00:11.155
It is so crucial that we do place based learning.

01:00:11.665 --> 01:00:15.840
Because it is embedded in that social ecological context.

01:00:16.195 --> 01:00:23.655
And like I said to you earlier, the reason that is important is because children come from very diverse contexts.

01:00:23.755 --> 01:00:30.685
Even to ... Like you take a government school in say, even in an urban city, right?

01:00:32.055 --> 01:00:32.345
Or rural.

01:00:33.435 --> 01:00:35.435
Children come from very diverse contexts.

01:00:36.725 --> 01:00:38.895
Some children, maybe first generation learners.

01:00:39.015 --> 01:00:45.945
Their parents are either agricultural labor or are doing some skilled work or the other.

01:00:46.065 --> 01:00:47.425
Or unskilled work or the other.

01:00:49.075 --> 01:00:52.515
Or come from farming background.

01:00:52.515 --> 01:00:52.575
Whatever.

01:00:53.655 --> 01:00:56.005
But they're all coming from diverse contexts, right?

01:00:56.035 --> 01:01:01.705
And so they're coming with ... And then [tribal] adivasi children who are coming from a very different context.

01:01:01.715 --> 01:01:06.415
So this homogenization of learning.

01:01:06.885 --> 01:01:19.505
Homogenization and uniformity of education destroys creativity, destroys a child's ability to think, destroys the confidence of the child, right?

01:01:25.375 --> 01:01:36.745
So it does not allow that child to articulate and express themselves without fear.

01:01:36.995 --> 01:01:50.335
Because you're expected to understand , you are in Rayalseema, you don't even know what anything looks like.

01:01:50.435 --> 01:01:57.075
You don't even know what the sea looks like but you're supposed to understand about Australia and its mineral resources and all of that stuff.

01:01:57.175 --> 01:02:02.885
Then you're supposed to understand about oceans and things.

01:02:03.925 --> 01:02:07.145
And you have no understanding because you've never even seen an ocean before.

01:02:07.145 --> 01:02:07.945
You've never seen the sea.

01:02:07.945 --> 01:02:11.255
You don't even know what a beach looks like and then you're supposed to understand this.

01:02:12.015 --> 01:02:26.127
So first and foremost, principles of science, understanding of phenomena around you, it's possible to be able to understand all concepts of physics, chemistry, biology by embedding it in that place.

01:02:26.127 --> 01:02:26.200
Not difficult at all.

01:02:26.200 --> 01:02:47.495
It is the ability to educators to be able to pull out example from that context which is forcing them to have standardized textbooks and standardized ... So the point here is you could have a framework.

01:02:47.635 --> 01:02:50.545
So we've tried this once or twice.

01:02:50.895 --> 01:02:53.265
You have a theme, say water, right?

01:02:54.365 --> 01:02:55.495
That's in your textbook.

01:02:56.185 --> 01:02:57.225
It's in chemistry.

01:02:57.285 --> 01:02:58.325
It's in physics.

01:02:58.545 --> 01:02:59.645
It's in biology.

01:02:59.675 --> 01:03:01.165
It's in history, right?

01:03:01.165 --> 01:03:09.755
But you pick up the theme of water and then you look around your environment and say okay, what is the ecological significance of water here?

01:03:09.955 --> 01:03:11.855
I can learn about the properties of water.

01:03:11.855 --> 01:03:16.345
I can learn about all that, but at the same time I can understand where does water come from?

01:03:16.345 --> 01:03:17.725
How do I access water?

01:03:17.995 --> 01:03:20.015
What is the technology is being used?

01:03:20.015 --> 01:03:22.355
How is energy being used to access water?

01:03:22.695 --> 01:03:26.255
All of that learning I can do with an understanding of my context.

01:03:28.835 --> 01:03:39.765
But the advantage of something like this is when you understand it in your context, the ability to address challenges in your context.

01:03:41.655 --> 01:03:43.655
Get embedded in your head.

01:03:44.625 --> 01:03:49.655
And when you're talking about the future of so much uncertainty, right?

01:03:50.125 --> 01:03:51.265
Climate uncertainty.

01:03:52.635 --> 01:04:05.215
Changing environment of technology and particularly information technology and bio technology, then you're talking about the jobs of the future are not going to be the same as the jobs of the past.

01:04:05.865 --> 01:04:13.325
Then you're talking about all of these changes and climate change, in itself, which is going to completely change reality of life.

01:04:14.035 --> 01:04:15.845
How do you cope with this uncertainty?

01:04:16.425 --> 01:04:19.225
How do you adapt to this uncertainty?

01:04:19.525 --> 01:04:24.175
How do you build flexibility to adapt to this uncertainty?

01:04:24.175 --> 01:04:31.115
It is by understanding your context so that you can equip yourself.

01:04:31.475 --> 01:04:35.325
First and foremost, you build confidence because you're using your own information and understanding.

01:04:35.945 --> 01:04:37.725
And then understanding science through that.

01:04:37.735 --> 01:04:39.555
Or using principles of science to understand.

01:04:41.565 --> 01:04:45.145
Suraj: There is like a clicking noise just there when you put your hands like that.

01:04:45.145 --> 01:04:45.425
All right.

01:04:45.565 --> 01:04:46.315
Yeah, that's fine.

01:04:46.545 --> 01:04:46.835
Radha: Okay.

01:04:47.685 --> 01:04:55.765
Suraj: [inaudible] if you gesture with that enthusiasm that that shakes so you don't have to hold it or anything, but just that particular motion, I think, go on.

01:04:56.435 --> 01:05:00.625
Radha: So then, therefore, the question then is if that if I don't.

01:05:01.295 --> 01:05:06.765
So as far as I can see, the understanding of how to survive in your context.

01:05:07.335 --> 01:05:08.565
Important, okay.

01:05:08.845 --> 01:05:09.808
How do you grow food?

01:05:09.808 --> 01:05:13.005
Because I think all education should definitely involve growing of food.

01:05:14.245 --> 01:05:14.865
And how do you?

01:05:14.875 --> 01:05:20.635
Because by growing food, you realize how I can use resources, okay?

01:05:21.545 --> 01:05:25.605
And that is a very ... Because all of the resources that you need to grow food.

01:05:25.895 --> 01:05:37.335
Water, land, soil, ecological conditions, ensuring the microbial quality or the soil fertility is ensured through microbial existence in that area.

01:05:38.415 --> 01:05:43.155
The inter relationships in that soil and ecosystem.

01:05:43.545 --> 01:05:45.155
So you understand all of that.

01:05:45.225 --> 01:05:50.105
You understand what can impact life in that ecosystem.

01:05:50.105 --> 01:05:56.745
So you really begin to understand inter relationships in that given ecosystem.

01:05:57.585 --> 01:05:59.575
It is intuitive.

01:05:59.575 --> 01:06:06.375
It builds on your own knowledge of that ecosystem, but you can abstract larger concepts from.

01:06:10.095 --> 01:06:18.625
So there is a foundation of familiarity, of understanding, from which you can abstract concepts of science, mathematics, whatever it is.

01:06:20.865 --> 01:06:33.745
Suraj: So here I'll perhaps refer our readers to that recent piece because in the Journal of Krishnamurtis Schools because I think that the example of students sitting in the forest raises some really, really lovely questions around science education.

01:06:33.745 --> 01:06:49.235
But also there's such a reality of the kids getting impatient or the dignity of the children raising questions that we could not have predicted or that peacefulness that is a much easier said than done to sit in quiet contemplation of nature and all.

01:06:50.275 --> 01:06:55.915
So here I'll just refer our students to that, our listeners to that piece.

01:06:55.915 --> 01:07:09.075
Do you want to say anything about how you're thinking about this issue has, what you've done in practice or how you're thinking about place based education has evolved through this COVID period where much of your work has been online?

01:07:09.125 --> 01:07:21.105
Radha: Yeah, actually that's a good question to ask because it's been a challenge because so much of the work that I've done with children in the last few years has been in the outdoors, right?

01:07:21.685 --> 01:07:25.535
But I said okay, this is a challenge.

01:07:25.535 --> 01:07:26.695
Let's see how we can do this.

01:07:26.755 --> 01:07:38.405
And we actually did an online course with a bunch of third grade, fourth grade students and fifth grade actually, to do a nature walk from within your home.

01:07:39.035 --> 01:07:40.405
So as long you have a window.

01:07:41.145 --> 01:07:44.745
And it was a five day thing with you had one day.

01:07:46.235 --> 01:07:52.210
So you had a one day engagement and you had a one day online interaction for an hour and a half.

01:07:52.210 --> 01:07:54.775
And then they got the next off and then they came back.

01:07:54.775 --> 01:07:57.515
So every alternate day we had online engagement.

01:07:58.425 --> 01:08:00.075
And they were given homework to do.

01:08:00.675 --> 01:08:04.305
And they were basically ... So yeah.

01:08:05.365 --> 01:08:07.675
So this experience is there in the latest issue of I Wonder.

01:08:07.685 --> 01:08:07.725
Suraj: Oh great.

01:08:07.755 --> 01:08:10.475
Radha: It's called Structure and Spontaneity.

01:08:11.425 --> 01:08:13.305
The paradox of structure and spontaneity.

01:08:13.305 --> 01:08:14.405
So how much do you structure?

01:08:14.415 --> 01:08:16.245
How much do you keep spontaneous, right?

01:08:16.715 --> 01:08:21.045
Because you don't want to be telling them what do you.

01:08:21.155 --> 01:08:22.515
You want them to observe.

01:08:22.515 --> 01:08:23.785
You want them to become aware.

01:08:23.785 --> 01:08:25.195
You want them to become sensitive.

01:08:26.055 --> 01:08:31.935
But at the same time, you want them to develop some science skills of recording, inferring, all of that.

01:08:33.785 --> 01:08:34.135
So yeah.

01:08:34.135 --> 01:08:39.275
We were able to do that quite well because they discovered that there is nature indoors.

01:08:39.605 --> 01:08:54.315
And for this, I mean I used the formats that were given by some friends at NCF, Nature Conservation Fund [https://www.ncf-india.org/education-and-public-engagement/a-nature-learning-framework-for-schools] . And based in Mysore, many of them work in Bangalore.

01:08:55.765 --> 01:08:59.645
They're nature educators, of course, and they had these hidden housemates.

01:08:59.645 --> 01:09:04.045
They had these bingo sheets and hidden housemates.

01:09:04.045 --> 01:09:09.685
And so shared those sheets with these children and said go look for spiders and lizard poop in your house.

01:09:09.685 --> 01:09:13.885
And they did that and so it was incredible and it was possible.

01:09:14.385 --> 01:09:19.305
And then you suddenly realize, and I said, as long as you have a window in your house, that's enough.

01:09:20.695 --> 01:09:25.385
Because you go to the same window three times a day and look out and see what birds you see.

01:09:25.905 --> 01:09:26.605
Where do they live?

01:09:26.955 --> 01:09:28.095
How often do they come?

01:09:28.105 --> 01:09:30.305
Are they birds on the wire?

01:09:30.305 --> 01:09:31.625
Are they birds in the tree?

01:09:32.115 --> 01:09:35.765
So you really begin to ... So the one day they looked at birds.

01:09:35.765 --> 01:09:37.035
Another day at plants.

01:09:37.405 --> 01:09:43.335
A third day at, yeah, at insects.

01:09:43.765 --> 01:09:45.675
And a fourth day, hidden housemates, yeah.

01:09:46.025 --> 01:09:47.555
Oh yeah, sorry on the third day, hidden housemates.

01:09:47.585 --> 01:09:52.465
On the fourth day, they grew fungus on chapati and on rice.

01:09:52.475 --> 01:09:56.615
And I'm not sure parents were happy, but the kids were.

01:09:58.175 --> 01:10:00.205
So yeah, it was great fun.

01:10:00.265 --> 01:10:01.855
And the kids really enjoyed it.

01:10:02.945 --> 01:10:03.365
Yeah.

01:10:03.685 --> 01:10:06.975
So we managed, yeah.

01:10:06.975 --> 01:10:20.605
Suraj: Yeah, that creates this really fascinating direction for this place based research in these virtual worlds, I think, will be a very interesting direction of future research.

01:10:20.605 --> 01:10:28.015
So at this point, I'll, in respect for your time here, pull us into a sort of closing.

01:10:28.015 --> 01:10:31.395
So two closings.

01:10:31.425 --> 01:10:42.305
The first closing we'll keep simple which is what advice do you have to newcomers to environmental education research in the Indian context?

01:10:42.305 --> 01:10:45.985
What kinds of things should people be thinking about if they're interested in these issues?

01:10:47.615 --> 01:11:02.545
Radha: Okay, so I think when we talk about environmental education research, I think it's also important to understand, first and foremost, what is environmental education in an Indian context?

01:11:03.305 --> 01:11:09.945
One is a broad Indian context, but the other is within India, there is ecological contexts.

01:11:09.945 --> 01:11:13.535
There's geographical contexts and there's social contexts.

01:11:13.535 --> 01:11:16.565
And I think it's very important to look at all of these.

01:11:16.765 --> 01:11:21.505
It can become complex, but I think unless you understand all these dimensions.

01:11:23.795 --> 01:11:26.215
And when we say social, it's just like what we talked about.

01:11:26.885 --> 01:11:28.195
Caste, religion, political.

01:11:28.355 --> 01:11:29.695
I mean it's ideological.

01:11:29.695 --> 01:11:31.375
There's just so many layers to it.

01:11:31.375 --> 01:11:33.615
And if we don't understand all of that.

01:11:34.285 --> 01:11:37.685
Because policy is so strongly influenced by all of this, right?

01:11:37.705 --> 01:11:39.915
I mean the political landscape.

01:11:40.445 --> 01:11:49.715
And also this idea of a democratic country and what is the democratic structure at a local level?

01:11:50.115 --> 01:11:53.955
How does that impinge in environmental education?

01:11:55.115 --> 01:12:05.015
Because if you don't understand those structures, then environmental education only becomes environmental science and technology.

01:12:06.355 --> 01:12:11.565
Suraj: Which I think we've covered is not enough.

01:12:12.405 --> 01:12:16.135
Radha: Not enough unfortunately, yes.

01:12:16.135 --> 01:12:16.140
Yeah.

01:12:16.145 --> 01:12:45.325
So I would say really to ... And like you said about gender and about ... I think it's very important to design environmental education research to understand these multiple dimensions of how they intersect in shaping how the human populations engage with the resources around them.

01:12:45.375 --> 01:12:48.068
And then how they're influenced and how they influence.

01:12:48.068 --> 01:12:52.605
I think to understand that relationship, it's very important to their ... Yeah.

01:12:53.105 --> 01:12:53.665
I would say.

01:12:54.785 --> 01:13:05.425
Suraj: I would also like to, in closing, give you an opportunity to talk about if you want to speak at all about how COVID-19 has shaped your thinking or your work in the past two years?

01:13:05.425 --> 01:13:09.485
I know we talked about this, the implications for virtual things.

01:13:09.485 --> 01:13:13.795
But you can also pass on this question, but given the-

01:13:14.395 --> 01:13:19.815
Radha: no, no, it's a very serious issue.

01:13:19.825 --> 01:13:29.735
For me, it really has made me think about what I want to spend the rest of my life, I guess, or my time in education doing.

01:13:29.785 --> 01:13:33.340
Because there's this group that I am very closely engaged in.

01:13:33.535 --> 01:13:36.155
And these are friends in Telangana and Andhra Pradesh.

01:13:36.155 --> 01:13:39.395
And we work on the children's program together.

01:13:40.715 --> 01:13:52.445
And you realize, we've just recently been doing some work at trying to understand what are the children, how are the children going to go back to school, right?

01:13:53.085 --> 01:13:54.125
One and a half years.

01:13:54.805 --> 01:13:58.915
So literally they have moved from say grade two to grade four.

01:13:59.665 --> 01:14:01.685
Grade three has disappeared, right?

01:14:02.125 --> 01:14:03.725
How are these children going to cope?

01:14:04.115 --> 01:14:09.665
Many of them have not had access to online education because they don't have the facilities, right?

01:14:09.945 --> 01:14:12.295
They don't either have access to a telephone.

01:14:12.845 --> 01:14:14.935
Forget the laptop, even to a mobile phone.

01:14:15.265 --> 01:14:17.625
And if they do, then there isn't stable internet.

01:14:18.255 --> 01:14:22.145
And there is one phone in the family, I mean all of the infrastructure challenges.

01:14:23.395 --> 01:14:24.555
So that's one.

01:14:24.575 --> 01:14:29.105
Now how do these children, and many of the children have forgotten to read.

01:14:29.675 --> 01:14:30.335
How to write.

01:14:30.445 --> 01:14:30.455
Numeracy.

01:14:34.555 --> 01:14:40.805
So with these challenges, what science are you going to do when we talk about science education, right?

01:14:41.695 --> 01:14:42.905
So where do you begin?

01:14:43.125 --> 01:14:45.005
How do you work with teachers?

01:14:46.645 --> 01:14:50.485
How do equip teachers with the ability to cope with these kind of gaps?

01:14:51.455 --> 01:14:52.955
Now this is COVID-19, right?

01:14:53.265 --> 01:14:59.011
But I am seeing as we go into the future, there are going to be a lot of disruptions.

01:14:59.011 --> 01:15:00.155
There is climate change.

01:15:00.165 --> 01:15:02.325
If somebody is stuck in a flood prone area.

01:15:03.835 --> 01:15:08.085
If you have to migrate and move away from flooding, coastal cities, right?

01:15:08.505 --> 01:15:16.545
And it's always that section of society which it's going to hit which gets hit all the time because they don't have access to power and to facilities.

01:15:17.595 --> 01:15:19.235
They don't have access to power.

01:15:19.265 --> 01:15:22.965
They are not powerful enough to be able to access their facilities or their resources.

01:15:22.985 --> 01:15:26.505
So it's always going to be those marginalized communities.

01:15:26.645 --> 01:15:32.075
So how are we going to shape and change our education system or transform it?

01:15:32.475 --> 01:15:35.905
Or make it flexible enough to accommodate all of this?

01:15:36.975 --> 01:15:51.235
So that's something that I've really been thinking about very strongly and how do we all, as maybe not in that formal teaching system of government schools, how do we support the teachers as educators?

01:15:51.235 --> 01:15:59.545
Or as people who are clearly interested in this ... Who feel very strongly about the need for the right education.

01:16:00.855 --> 01:16:03.295
Because for me, this is sustainable education seriously.

01:16:03.295 --> 01:16:17.715
And if we don't do this, if we don't get all these children equipped with the ability to be able to educate themselves, then forget about place based and forget about pedagogy, right?

01:16:18.425 --> 01:16:24.145
And if you can't even get them to read and write and there's been a huge setback.

01:16:24.405 --> 01:16:25.460
I mean there is a massive population of children in India who lost out.

01:16:25.460 --> 01:16:37.130
Yeah, so that, for me, is really a big thing as the fall out of COVID.

01:16:37.385 --> 01:16:41.065
All the children of these migrants who have been displaced.

01:16:41.065 --> 01:16:43.165
And so yeah.

01:16:43.855 --> 01:16:46.545
And how do you do that with small libraries?

01:16:46.545 --> 01:16:48.745
How do you build public libraries and get access?

01:16:48.755 --> 01:16:54.275
So that the next time something like this happens, can they go to a public library and be provided?

01:16:54.275 --> 01:17:06.375
Like in Kerala, television sets have been installed in remote villages and the government actually did set up education programs through the television.

01:17:07.265 --> 01:17:14.935
So even if you don't have access to internet, et cetera, recorded videos were cast on television.

01:17:14.935 --> 01:17:22.945
So the children will watch it and in the community center, where you could organize them to have enough physical distance between themselves.

01:17:24.975 --> 01:17:35.315
So yeah, so I'm really ... That's something that's been ... Yeah, in my head.

01:17:35.325 --> 01:17:41.175
Suraj: Yeah, your point that we will have disruptions in the future really gets to me.

01:17:41.215 --> 01:17:51.445
And I think what a shame it will be if and when these disruptions happen and we turn out to have not really learned anything from this tremendous disruption.

01:18:01.065 --> 01:19:08.325
Radha: Yeah, yeah, exactly.