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This file was generated by Descript <www.descript.com>

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Gayithri: Hello, Dr Farooqi.

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Oh, I gotta Finally, talking to you.

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I think I need to take a few moments to just relax and.

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come to terms with the reality.

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Can I just take a second.

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Just to make sure that.

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It's getting recorded and that we're just doing fine.

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Okay.

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This is great, and I hope it is okay to record this.

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yeah.

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And, of course, like we will get back to you with the edited version and the transcript.

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And only after you consent will be.

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Shared it with the larger group.

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So right now it's just going to stay within our small group.

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For our own watching and understanding, everything that you would be sharing with us.

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So I'm going to briefly introduce myself, because this is the first time we have met.

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And I would also give you the opportunity to do the same, and then we can get started with the questions that we have planned for today.

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So I'm Gayithri Jayathirtha and I'm basically from Bangalore.

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Right now, I have been a student at the University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia USA but, before this I had done my education in Bangalore.

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I was in the computer science domain, so I continue to work in computer science education, that is my primary research area.

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But, of course, like being here as an international student has also triggered a lot of questions about my own identity in the space and how I relate to teaching and learning and what it even means to do some of the work as an educational researcher.

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and that is why this project, where we a group of students have come together to ask these questions and at the same time to kinda like decolonize or decenter the Western frameworks, the Western gaze we have had all these years.

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At least that's what the literature feels like when somebody has to get introduced to educational research.

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On, so we are trying to shift the gaze just by talking to folks like you who have had like vast experience either researching or doing work on the ground or both.

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We just want to collect your perspectives, of course we understand fully that.

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Even if there are like hundred individuals it's by no means representative of the work that's going on in the subcontinent and that these are just going to be hundred different perspectives.

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So coming from that background, today I would love to talk to you about your own practices, your perspectives and your experiences of doing the work that you have done all these years.

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and, especially, we are very keen on understanding what has equity meant to you in this work and how you have pushed.

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the boundaries of status quo to center and to bring focus on some of the concerns on equity in India as it exists in your context with the people whom you work and how you have kind of worked with that in.

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Your research and practice, so thanks for joining us today.

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yeah.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: Yes, Gayithri as you might be knowing presently I am working.

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In the Faculty of education, Jamia Milia islamia, which is a central university situated in Delhi.

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And i've been associated with this university for the last 13 years and before that.

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For 8 long years I worked with lady sriram college, which is Delhi University and.

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For a smaller time for about a year or two with NCERT so that is what my teaching.

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and learning experience has been.

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With these different institutions as far as my what you call as research.

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and writing is concerned, I started quite late in the sense that.

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I was bringing up children and teaching.

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So, being a woman has its own limitation apart from advantages but yeah so I started writing only.

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when I reached almost my you know I entered into my 40s.

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That is just you know 12 to 13 years back.

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Though I have been, before that, I wrote for textbooks, I was associated with.

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NCERT textbooks after national curriculum framework 2005 but doing my own bit.

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Actually as you would have seen my work is a little different because.

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I...

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And this is the kind of work that I will continue to do.

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i've been a practitioner so...

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and documented my experience so my work did not start with sampling and choosing a site and then going and recording so yeah.

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This is it and.

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In 2009 I came to jamia in 2006 in 2009 I got an opportunity to get associated with the.

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Government aided school, which is situated in the walled city of Delhi.

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And I became its manager and.

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For six long years I was the manager of this school and later, I still continue to be on its managing committee.

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So.

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This is the work that.

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I did, of trying to bring about some positive changes in this school trying to build up relations with people and and of course documenting the little changes that happened in the school and studying the locale of the school.

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So, for more than 12 years now I have been working and studying this school.

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So, and this school, let me tell you briefly, it is, it is more than 100 year old educational institution which started as a madrassa.

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And was run by.

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Some Abdul Rehman, before partition as a madrassa, but when partition happened and the person who was the owner of this place and in charge of running the madrasa , so he migrated to Pakistan, and he gave the key of the institution to Dr Zakir Hussain who was at that time, the Vice Chancellor of our university and he started a school in that premises and this school was later taken up by a society which still continues to run three schools in Delhi one is the school the Sheffield memory school that I worked with and to our.

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One is Anglo Arabic school, which is more than 300 years old educational institution, beautiful institution and one self financed school, which runs in the same campus as Anglo Arabic school.

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So these three institutions.

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Now since, as I told you, Dr Zakir Hussain was the Vice Chancellor of our university.

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At the time when the school started in 1948 so whosoever is now the Vice Chancellor of our University in his or her honorary position is also the chairperson of delhi Education society and is responsible for running these three schools and so that is how I got the opportunity to get associated with this school because I’m Vice Chancellor.

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And the President of the society so yeah it was a rare opportunity and clearly, you know I think some understanding that I have of education and so because of my association with that school.

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Gayithri: Fantastic yeah we will definitely delve into this, as we continue, but this was I think, a very interesting contextual information that I'm glad we went through.

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So if you want to like, we can start talking about like one specific project that you have taken up and then maybe we can get to like talking more broadly about different projects that you have done.

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So if you were to like pick one of the projects either like the recent one, or something that's close to your heart or something that you feel is representative of your work.

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Could you talk a little more about the community that you work with, the population that you work with, the geography, I think you kind of pointed at some of these when like you were just mentioning.

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details about your project and how you got associated with the school, but if you want to get a little more in depth, that would be also very helpful so.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: yeah actually.

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The school, as I said, lies on the very close to the walled city and on the fringes of what used to be earlier called Shahjahana Bagh and so that is where it is located.

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But yeah, I must tell you a little about it's locale.

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The areas around the school the mohallas as they're called.

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These mohallas include Bada Hindu Rao and Nayi Basti, Hata Kitara and prasad Pura and these areas.

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Are Muslim majority areas and.

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Earlier, now the the areas that I have mentioned the total about.

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More than 90% or.

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95% of people who reside in these areas are mostly Muslims and the.

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Population as the urbanization the way it has shaped in delhi and other states as well over the last few decades because of sociopolitical reasons, so earlier these.

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mohallas, these areas had much more or mixed kind of a population and later, but I mean actually this started, and in fact the attendance registers of 1950s reveal that about 35% Hindu children studied in this school at that time and the areas which I have mentioned these areas house many refugees after partition who slowly migrated to neighborhoods where they were given plots for houses others moved out as their businesses grew.

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But after 1984 as some would recall there was anti sikh pogroms which happened, and the Muslims, interestingly.

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were quite shaken, if not as much as the sikhs.

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but many people from it, joining areas they bought houses in.

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This area and many such areas at that time and later the pulling down of the Babri Masjid in 1992 and still later the Gujarat genocide of 2002 gradually resulted in the present state of the neighborhoods around the school.

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So now the these areas that I have mentioned, they have more than 95% Muslim population.

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And that this leads to an illusion of security, that is why they are now coming together and over the last several years as you know that the Muslim consciousness and vulnerability and security, these are now quite palpable in these areas, since the BJP government has come into power so this is what.

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This is about the locale of the school and now the children who come to this school more than 65% of the children.

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are Child workers and almost all of them are from working class families and as I said about 65% themselves work in a small factories called karkhanas and.

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This area, the entire area this.

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You know undergoes.

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Income shocks, off and on.

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For example, they were sealing a small.

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Commercial ventures in the area in 2006 and later in one of the areas.

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which I mentioned Prasadpura in this area.

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There were more than a century older slaughterhouses and these slaughterhouses worse shifted to another place in 2009.

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And this shifting of slaughterhouses to a place which is about 25 to 30 kilometers from this area also again resulted in an income shock, because many people who were workers in those slaughterhouses they had to go to this distant area and going there required.

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You know spending quite a lot of money every day, whereas they earn very little so that again resulted in an income shock which.

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happened often on in this area so yeah, so this is about the area.

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Gayithri: Yes, and you were mentioning that some of the students have like 65% close to on are already actually employed in some of the manufacturing places around you mentioned that so are you working with like high school students, what exactly is the project so.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: Actually, Gayithri, I did not take up take this up as a

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project.

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Exactly I got involved

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: with this school as a manager.

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Okay.

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So I did not take this up as a project or research or even have a research site.

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So yeah.

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Gayithri: Fantastic yeah, I just wanted.

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This is all coming from your understanding and experiences like being a part of the community keeping the school going.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: Absolutely yeah and these children.

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This school is a senior secondary school, which runs from class one to class 12 and the primary school runs in the evening shift classes one to five happen in the evening shift, whereas classes six to 12 happen in the morning shift, that is from 7am till 12:30pm so that is our morning shift and...

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And most work and..

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Which I have been able to do.

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And observe closely.

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Because my association with children has been quite, you know, interesting and I forge relations with many children and children who passed out [graduated], you know six years ago or eight years ago from this school still continue to be in touch so.

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These young..

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And such a room these children were in the morning shift.

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i've been able to observe.

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The children in classes six to 12 much more closely, as compared to the primary school so yeah.

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Gayithri: Just to get a perspective, Dr Farooqi would you want to elaborate on how a typical day in your work at the school would look like, because that sounds really very interesting.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: Actually.

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As you know, as I...

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In my introduction, told you that I work with the university.

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Like Jamia Milia Islamia and I was an honorary manager of the school and unfortunately we don't have, you know, this kind of work does not find a space in our time table or in workload as well.

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So, so yeah it was actually difficult, but I did manage to visit the school.

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At least five times in a month, which went up 20 times when the situation demanded.

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And otherwise, even if I was not in the school, communication continued, and you know phone calls and writing emails and communicating with the Delhi Education Society and the directorate of education children, and the teachers, many of them live close to my university.

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So they visited me in the university for official work and otherwise as well so yeah.

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And in my day at university and the school when I managed to go to this school, as I said, it was minimum of five days in a week which went up to 20 days.

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Five days in a month, but which went up to 20 days in a month whenever the situation demanded, so yeah one thing which actually helped my classes in the university were either in the morning, or in the afternoon.

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So whenever there you know, and most of the days I used to have classes in the afternoon, so I would visit the school, will reach the school at around 8-8:30 and then be there for a few hours and then come back to the university for my classes.

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So yeah somehow managed, that is what.

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I can say.

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that's that's no.

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Gayithri: I just wanted to get like a sense of like your environment which I think we got a sense of that.

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Thank you so much um, what do you want to elaborate on how you I know it was more of a fortuitous thing that you landed in this place in this school and you were able to work with the community.

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But what is actually keeping you excited and interested about this context, if you could elaborate a little more on what motivated you to take this line of work.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: You know, actually, as I pointed out earlier, that I never.

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At least initially, for a few years, I did not look upon the school as a research site or a project, but what I wanted to do together with the school staff and children was to bring about some kind of positive changes in the school so.

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And as a practitioner, I tried to reflect on my work.

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But that was.

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Later, and.

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One thing that I must share with you is that I did play a number of roles in a way.

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I was the manager of the school.

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A practitioner trying to harness positive energies.

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A student of education, and academic - a university professor.

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And I think wearing these several hats together did give me rare insights about the school and also the kind of work that I took up as manager, I was not a mere cheque signing manager, I see because.

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During the course of my work, I interacted not just with the Delhi Education Society and the.

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Gayithri: Through what.

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You were talking about what like what is motivating you to keep this work going you were talking about the multiple hats that you all are in the class.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: Okay.

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So yeah apart from interacting with the Delhi Education Society and the directorate of education and writing innumerable mails to them I got a chance to interact with teachers, of course, in formal and informal situations.

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I was very close to children, I taught in a class for some time, in fact, for one class - class eight - for the longest period and then.

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Other classes for a brief period with the.

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The original co-taught with the teachers there and yeah back from that I was I had to be involved with the community, because the kind of relationship the community had with this school was also very interesting.

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They looked at this school, as an institution which you.

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Because, as I told you, it is a 100 year old educational institution, and some people who were in that.

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lived there called themself.

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You know lay a claim to the school in the sense that they have.

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They say that this would have been taken up or it would have gone to the government, but we save the school for the community and when the partition happened, so the Community has really interesting.

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You know relationship with the school, so I had to, and also because most children come from the locality, so one has to interact with the parents.

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And not just the parents with other people in the Community, so it took up a lot of time, apart from that, the political leaders who resided in that area and.

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So what I'm trying to tell you is that my role as manager of the way I conceive my role as manager required me to interact with an array of people and groups and, apart from the staff and the children so yeah yeah and also being a part of a number of meetings in this school constituting committees and working with them did reveal a lot about the school and how it functions.

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Gayithri: And what has been.

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started writing.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: Yeah yeah sorry I think there wasn't like oh no no go on.

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And not so.

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Actually I started writing, documenting my work only after three years of being with the school.

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So, and also published.

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19 articles serialized articles in a journal called shake shack have emerged.

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So.

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yeah.

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yeah yeah what were you asking.

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Gayithri: I think my question was, of course, like this has been like a very deep engagement with the Community the school.

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And, like all the other people who come with the school and the Community be it the parents or children, what has been some of the easy aspects.

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of doing this work if you were to mention a few is it been like working with parents or has it been working with like the teachers anybody else that you would like to.

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point to at this time, if you were to think about like what has been like really like easy or comfortable about this context of work.

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Dr. Farah Farooqi: I will not put it like this, I think the best part of working with the school has been my interaction with children.

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And because it was quite amazing you know the kind of relations, I was able to forge with the children, and it was not just amazing for me, but you know the way the staff looked at it, for example.

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The children were quite interesting in the sense that they would you know some of them were quite happy that they knew the manager well and they used to.

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You know boast about it and there were others who would.

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You know tease and take the manager on the ride, and we laugh together, and since I was not just you know involved with the little teaching that I did but otherwise.

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I was also helping children prepare skits and play for the annual day and otherwise generally have you know interacting with them, so this was quite amazing for the staff and they found me laughing with the children, and you know.

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And chatting away with them so.

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And that, and after just.

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you know just a few years, I knew the children much better, I knew their families and homes and the locale much, much better than any of the teachers and because I visited their karkhanas their homes.

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And children would invite me also.

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ki aaj bhai aap humare saath rozaftaar kijiye.

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Have a cup of tea at our place.

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So umm you know, so it was quite amazing for the staff, and you know.

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Knowing children was the best part of it, and that is.

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From where I think the several layers of my research, because I was playing these different roles, so I think the kind of layered study.

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which I was able to do, looking at children and the locale, the kind of work that they did, their culture and how the school culture and the lives of children were influenced by the market, how different the kind of...

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There was one group in this school which engaged in religious education.

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And it was a voluntary group; looking at them and understanding their views and...

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Because when they were in this group, the children were totally different in this avatar.

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as they were in the classroom or outside.

00:39:08.420 --> 00:39:45.850
So the kind of work and the [...] kind of understanding of this school happened because of the kind of relations, I was able to develop with children and it was actually amazing and I don't know how and why, but the kind of trust that I was able to build with the children, and they would talk about their lives and other things you know in school and outside school.

00:39:45.850 --> 00:40:15.100
So, but it was initially quite amazing for me, I think they were yearning for this, you know this kind of relationship and which, I was able to forge with some children, of course, because I did not have that kind of time, but yeah I learned a lot.

00:40:15.110 --> 00:40:24.600
So that was the best part I think of the entire exercise to knowing the children.

00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:26.220
Nice.

00:40:27.430 --> 00:40:29.227
Gayithri: Anything you want to point.

00:40:29.227 --> 00:40:48.580
At a point to like any hard aspects of doing this work any challenging or difficult part of doing this kind of work, it could be, ranging from like funding to publishing that to, of course, like even like work on the ground.

00:40:51.950 --> 00:40:53.280
What were some of the challenging.

00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:54.200
Parts no.

00:40:56.030 --> 00:41:02.420
Dr. Farah Farooqi: Actually, since, I never took up this work as a project or as.

00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:16.000
So there was, of course, funding is no question, I was there as a manager an honorary manager and because the school is too hard upon funds.

00:41:17.310 --> 00:41:24.957
We receive 95% from the government which goes.

00:41:24.957 --> 00:41:34.610
Which is for paying the teachers towards the salaries of teachers.

00:41:35.060 --> 00:41:45.900
5% the management has to somehow manage and we do that through.

00:41:45.940 --> 00:41:56.320
We e have to charge a little fee from the students in order to be able to you know.

00:41:58.070 --> 00:42:02.840
for collecting the 5% which we have to.

00:42:04.710 --> 00:42:05.310
Then.

00:42:06.740 --> 00:42:07.260
In order to give this the salaries to teachers and also for every day.

00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:23.410
Expenses like the phone and electricity, and all the rest so yeah.

00:42:26.740 --> 00:42:30.797
So, but of course there was no funding involved and also because we were hard.

00:42:30.797 --> 00:42:40.610
On funds all the time, so but I made it a.

00:42:40.700 --> 00:42:44.470
You know my I never took.

00:42:47.160 --> 00:43:07.270
Even transport expenses from the school for traveling to and fro from jamia to school and back and school is 25 kilometers from jamia so yeah there's there was no question of.

00:43:07.350 --> 00:43:14.690
Funds did not arise, and what is the next thing that you asked have in place.

00:43:14.730 --> 00:43:20.300
In case, if there were any so I think there has been like a little bit of.

00:43:20.300 --> 00:43:26.510
Gayithri: A delay between I speaking and it's reaching that is like some kind of a delay.

00:43:28.140 --> 00:43:33.770
I maybe we'll have to just be patient sorry uh.

00:43:33.770 --> 00:43:34.656
huh.

00:43:34.656 --> 00:43:40.600
So I think my question was if you had any challenges that's all.

00:43:40.670 --> 00:43:42.840
I'm with regard to funding.

00:43:42.899 --> 00:43:45.050
Dr. Farah Farooqi: I'm just wondering make publishing or putting this work out in the world.

00:43:45.050 --> 00:43:54.430
or even like working with certain people as a part of this work.

00:43:57.510 --> 00:43:57.530
So.

00:43:59.040 --> 00:44:40.260
With regard to funding, as I told you that I was the only manager of this institution, and with regard to publishing I first published my work as serialized articles in a journal called shiksha vimarsh which you might be knowing an organization which works with schools and also publishers they invited me to publish my.

00:44:42.170 --> 00:44:52.120
My articles in the form of a book and these articles were first written in hindustani.

00:44:52.140 --> 00:45:07.520
That again because I wanted to write a series of articles that no other journal I knew would give me permission to write.

00:45:07.610 --> 00:45:13.610
A series and publisher series which shiksha vimarhs most readily agreed so and now.

00:45:13.610 --> 00:45:38.326
I will send my with the book, which has been published, again, is in hindustani, and now I will soon be sending the English version of the book.

00:45:38.326 --> 00:45:49.990
For publication, not to Eklavya, but to some other place so the manuscript is now ready, so I think I've taken a very different path to studying.

00:45:49.990 --> 00:46:13.959
To doing work, studying school and making a graphical observations, and to writing publishing and yeah so the questions that you are asking again.

00:46:14.780 --> 00:46:23.890
Many times to you're doing I do my situation and with regard to challenges I think of.

00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:39.135
Understanding the extent and limits of my power in relation to people and positions resources and organizational constraints so the structural and the cultural barriers.

00:46:39.135 --> 00:46:53.837
You know, which created a sense of powerlessness amongst teachers and there was always a pressure to work to rules.

00:46:53.837 --> 00:48:09.120
But and his school what struck me when I joined this school was that it seemed like closed, and it was a closed and suffocating space where there was a lot of mistrust between staff, management, and the administration and also the community, and there was a lot of lobbying and politicking so while the management was vigilant and teachers were alert and distant and so thinking about some changes was quite a huge challenge in an atmosphere where there was blame and fear and my, you know, disdain and.

00:48:10.830 --> 00:48:15.660
But I think one change really which.

00:48:17.640 --> 00:48:33.660
I can leave some claim to and I don't regard any change which came about in the school, as my success or anything which did not work as my individual failure.

00:48:34.650 --> 00:48:55.060
Because we were all working as a team and a lot of credit goes to the administration, because they were working on day to day basis, but the entire the ethos, the atmosphere of the school did undergo a change.

00:48:56.130 --> 00:48:57.320
The kind of.

00:48:57.330 --> 00:49:12.970
The, you know the relations between participants, between staff and management changed actually when.

00:49:12.970 --> 00:49:20.720
By initially when I joined the school one complaint which and which I also observed.

00:49:20.720 --> 00:49:31.910
Was that only three people on the staff, used to say were running this school.

00:49:31.910 --> 00:50:05.130
One principal and two office close associates, the two members of the staff but later, you know, as the principal grew in confidence and he thought that I was with him, he started to delegate responsibilities among staff members and later when I stepped down as manager.

00:50:05.540 --> 00:50:12.300
So one change, one huge change that happened right before my eyes was.

00:50:13.410 --> 00:50:13.590
That.

00:50:16.140 --> 00:50:16.800
Many.

00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:19.300
Sorry.

00:50:19.470 --> 00:50:20.700
You want me to pause.

00:50:22.030 --> 00:50:24.740
yeah i've been boards that.

00:50:29.250 --> 00:50:37.120
That relations between various participants underwent a huge huge change.

00:50:37.630 --> 00:51:21.380
There were more than 30 teachers who were, around 33 teachers of the 43 or 45 that we had, who were willingly and happily participating in the school in various activities of this school and our principal also later got a letter of appreciation from the Minister of the MHRD minister, the Minister of Education, that the way the school has changed and which included, you know many more, we had.

00:51:21.390 --> 00:51:22.060
Earlier only.

00:51:23.510 --> 00:51:30.520
You know 50% of our students managed to barely pass, but now.

00:51:30.530 --> 00:51:46.140
all hundred percent students were passing, which I will not say was a huge huge change as I'm referring to.

00:51:47.370 --> 00:51:56.160
The change in relationships which happened because, as we know that marks are, do not lie, that.

00:51:59.390 --> 00:52:23.250
Things have changed and they don't really indicate that children have learned and they have understood, but yeah there were many other changes which happened in this school very slowly to one had to be very patient but yeah so I've been able to.

00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:51.010
Document these slow changes which happened and writing my diary as I call it, it did lend me a sense of hope and confidence, and I was able to see the the small changes coming about which did give me the confidence to carry on.

00:52:58.700 --> 00:53:01.790
Gayithri: So this, this is a brilliant.

00:53:01.860 --> 00:53:11.530
If you were to make connections like and if you also want to elaborate maybe now would be a great opportunity to talk a little about.

00:53:12.900 --> 00:53:23.460
The series of articles that you wrote from the diary if you want to elaborate on that, that would be wonderful in relation to.

00:53:24.180 --> 00:53:37.560
What we just discussed about what happened in the school and what you saw if you could briefly, I know it, it might be like a really hard ask because there were like a series of articles which we will definitely link to.

00:53:38.580 --> 00:54:07.969
When we are putting up the video, we will be linking to some of your work, of course, one of that would include like a link to the series of articles, but if you were to quickly tell us a little about what you wrote in the article, what did you look at and what were some of the surprises.

00:54:07.969 --> 00:54:07.989
Dr. Farah Farooqi: Yeah.

00:54:09.080 --> 00:54:51.860
The first two articles Gayithri were about understanding school as organization and it was about [...connection issues] in the first article, for example, I have tried to introduce school by describing its location, infrastructure, available resources, then, do the focus on.

00:54:53.380 --> 00:55:17.530
The first two chapters his own internal organizational processes, but we all know that these remain open to political and economic and policy pressures from outside, so I have tried to understand the responsibilities of different people in the organization and I've also.

00:55:20.860 --> 00:55:27.840
You know, reflected on my work as manager and I have pondered how.

00:55:29.720 --> 00:55:39.000
responsibilities when undertaken sitting in the ivory tower can result in dangerous consequences.

00:55:39.700 --> 00:55:47.960
So, and outcome can be drastically different is tasks are taken up conscientiously and.

00:55:48.930 --> 00:55:53.570
After understanding the ground, the ground realities.

00:55:54.330 --> 00:56:09.500
So I've talked about the interpersonal relations and I've talked about some very interesting aspects, for example, I've used the symbolism of a cup of tea and power.

00:56:11.040 --> 00:56:12.270
Which is a.

00:56:13.490 --> 00:56:40.670
Which, in the first chapter I've tried to demonstrate how, at times, we fail to see how how others perceive us and our power because we may not be conscious of our own power, but how others see us and how they perceive us is again important, then I have.

00:56:42.990 --> 00:56:44.830
You know, talked about...

00:56:47.800 --> 00:56:55.640
You know, an interesting thing which I have talked about in Chapter two is about.

00:56:56.970 --> 00:57:06.480
Teachers [tea] clubs and so, these tea clubs.

00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:13.180
You know, through these tea clubs which used to run in the school.

00:57:15.460 --> 00:58:10.220
I have tried to understand the interpersonal relations between teachers between teachers and the administration and it was very interesting to see how these teachers actually during the break time they used to gather in groups and have tea, and you know lunch together, so it was really interesting to see how these small clubs operated and, for example, the kind of relations that existed in a club; they used to call it a club, but in this group, where there were only female teachers about 13 of them used to have tea together.

00:58:10.890 --> 00:58:22.440
So there the kind of hierarchies the structural hierarchies that existed, whether or not, as visible as in the men's club.

00:58:24.370 --> 00:58:24.840
Read.

00:58:26.120 --> 00:58:42.910
Several you know the PGTs, and the TGTs, there in the men's club they used to be very conscious of their you know role and status in the school.

00:58:43.730 --> 00:59:01.820
So, and I used to be invited to the men's club, most of the time, because our principal used to have tea in that club, so it was very interesting to see what happened there.

00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:23.990
And look, for example, this men's club it used to run in the physics lab and principal, he used to, he was offered a comfortable chair before which our table was placed and whenever I joined the Group I was also offered a chair placed at the same table.

00:59:25.080 --> 00:59:27.330
But I prefer to sit with teachers.

00:59:27.670 --> 00:59:39.490
And the teachers, they sat on stools which was placed around the work table of the lab and most of the times.

00:59:39.500 --> 00:59:40.140
The.

00:59:40.480 --> 00:59:43.270
Things like.

00:59:44.530 --> 00:59:47.560
For eating were ordered from outside, but.

00:59:49.480 --> 01:00:25.610
Men also you know they brought things prepared by their wives, at times, but in this club, the conversation most of the time was around the Department of Education management and obstacles in the path of files, and it was rare to see good humor door chatting which was there in the women's club, so it was really interesting.

01:00:25.620 --> 01:00:31.240
And, at times, I also became.

01:00:31.380 --> 01:00:38.320
me, you know, I was targeted it happened rarely but.

01:00:39.920 --> 01:00:40.290
You know.

01:00:42.370 --> 01:00:43.280
In this club.

01:00:44.680 --> 01:00:47.930
I was cornered at times that because.

01:00:49.380 --> 01:00:55.870
For example, one thing that I did not agree to, or was that to.

01:00:59.690 --> 01:01:31.140
You know, teachers wanted the school to close early on Fridays because of Friday prayers but I said that the school gets over at 1230 and we have sufficient time to go to our places and pray so why leave early so they would call me and say Jamia shuts early on Friday and why not our school and all those kind of things.

01:01:31.700 --> 01:01:34.260
Then there was a club which was.

01:01:35.380 --> 01:02:01.280
You know the which was seen as a powerful group, and there were four teachers who had tea together one was to become principal and vice principal in a few years time and there were the staff Secretary, who was a female interestingly, and that was quite interesting because she was.

01:02:01.290 --> 01:02:09.910
This was very contradictory to the culture of the place and culture of the school.

01:02:10.140 --> 01:02:14.262
She was a Member of this group, and it was seen as a powerful group and whosoever the staff if they felt that.

01:02:14.262 --> 01:02:14.552
You know, they were being cornered by.

01:02:14.552 --> 01:02:59.040
By the management, so they would go to this group for advice and they had the manual, the school manual on their fingertips, and they were, and they also had relations with the government aided School Teachers Association and the other two schools of Delhi Education Society.

01:03:00.930 --> 01:03:09.420
So it was very interesting to document all this and to see the entire group relations through.

01:03:10.530 --> 01:03:12.880
The window of these clubs.

01:03:14.060 --> 01:03:19.326
and later in the chapter, I have also talked about.

01:03:19.326 --> 01:03:32.800
Whether my own role and my own how I was functioning in the in the school, whether it was democratic enough or not or.

01:03:32.980 --> 01:03:45.180
Yeah I have recounted several anecdotes to raise questions about my own functioning.

01:03:45.630 --> 01:03:50.030
So basically these two chapters are all, these two articles.

01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:51.970
About to.

01:04:01.110 --> 01:04:12.560
The school organization, interpersonal relations and all such things so the third article was about.

01:04:13.820 --> 01:04:50.380
The market and, since our children, as I told you well working in this small factories, or Karkhanas, so in this article I've tried to bring forth the big picture of socioeconomic and cultural context of the children, so there is a description about living and working conditions of the children and.

01:04:50.380 --> 01:05:01.000
And the interplay which existed between factory residence and school and the vicissitudes of the market.

01:05:01.410 --> 01:05:13.390
I've also talked about the nature of family and support system and how family relations are influenced by relations of work and market.

01:05:14.230 --> 01:05:24.736
So closely I’ve seen you know how children's everyday life is affected by the social and economic pressures and tried to see the life context of these children.

01:05:24.736 --> 01:05:26.546
So that is what the third chapter is about and I've talked about the Karkhanas as I call them.

01:05:26.546 --> 01:05:57.830
And some of these Karkhanas or these factories, they doubled up as homes and there would be.

01:05:57.930 --> 01:05:59.960
A small.

01:05:59.960 --> 01:06:34.960
You know a room, which was just you know, 12 feet in size and their workers lived and worked at the same time, and there would be, in that small room, seven or eight or more workers would be staying and also working and.

01:06:35.630 --> 01:06:44.130
With all this and they would be raw material and sewing machines and you know.

01:06:45.560 --> 01:07:06.980
Also, you know things take wired for preparing meals and other things, so I think any work without looking at the living conditions of children would be totally incomplete.

01:07:07.790 --> 01:07:24.760
And another interesting thing that I managed to do in this article was to see to compare the relations which children had with their Ustaad.

01:07:24.800 --> 01:07:28.120
Ustaad I’m using for.

01:07:30.470 --> 01:08:08.730
You know for the owners of karkhaanas, so people with whom these children would apprentice, or would intern with or work with, so the kind of relations that they had with them and how these relations were markedly different from the relations that they manage to have with their teachers and so i've compared and contrasted that that how I think that is.

01:08:11.840 --> 01:08:17.690
One thing which I find is really interesting about this chapter.

01:08:18.490 --> 01:08:40.630
So uh because, for example, the ustaad would look after children’s everyday needs and show concern during illness and have a heart to forgive and forget when they were unable to reach the workshop on time.

01:08:42.970 --> 01:08:53.730
But also they make children toil for minimum wages and they also delay their payments so.

01:08:54.360 --> 01:09:00.750
This display of sympathy and compassion, how it becomes a medium for exploitation.

01:09:01.510 --> 01:09:22.920
But it was also a means of extending help and patronage, so the hierarchical relationship, how it remained concealed and, at times, it became difficult for child worker to understand its nature but...

01:09:23.150 --> 01:09:35.660
And this was the kind of relationship, you know that they had with the Ustaad was.

01:09:35.740 --> 01:09:40.210
Personal and informal like the judge-maani system.

01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:52.020
So, but the kind of relationship that they had with their teachers, it was impersonal and formal despite their daily association.

01:09:52.550 --> 01:09:53.790
So I have talked about that and i've talked about.

01:09:57.050 --> 01:10:14.550
My visits to karkhanas was and how you know, I was not really confident to tell my children to stop working and to devote all their time to studies, because we could not offer.

01:10:15.340 --> 01:10:29.520
You know much in terms of our Minister of Education, so I did not have that kind of confidence to wean them away from work.

01:10:29.830 --> 01:10:44.910
Because they felt that they were learning some craft, which would come in handy and they did not have the kind of you know, the leisure of devoting years of years to education.

01:10:47.320 --> 01:11:10.820
And even if they did study it was only some went on to college, but they did their graduation, and then they were forced by the circumstances to work and and this did not lead them.

01:11:12.630 --> 01:11:21.830
Anywhere in the sense that they will became ultimately became slaves to the multinational companies so.

01:11:22.990 --> 01:11:28.020
These are some of the questions that I have managed to ask in this.

01:11:30.510 --> 01:11:31.040
You know.

01:11:32.490 --> 01:11:38.210
Article and in the next two years, should I go on Gayithri and

01:11:38.220 --> 01:11:49.130
Gayithri: Dr K was allowed to tell has been like wonderful listen to, like all the chapters, but I don't want to take a lot of your time because I really don't want you to.

01:11:49.830 --> 01:11:52.480
You know stretch your day just for our sake.

01:11:52.910 --> 01:12:04.059
So maybe like we will be linking to the articles and if folks are interested, of course, like whatever you shared with us so far it's going to be good to give a glimpse of the kind of work that you have done.

01:12:04.460 --> 01:12:18.120
So I think, hopefully, our viewers will do the rest of their work by reading more of your writing and I think we can just quickly move on, because I want to ask a few questions.

01:12:19.210 --> 01:12:32.910
One being like is there, like any school of thought any like like a philosopher or anybody like guiding your work is there, like any theory that you go by.

01:12:33.890 --> 01:12:37.460
Dr. Farah Farooqi: yeah, that is an important question gayithri.

01:12:38.070 --> 01:12:43.788
Because what I have done in my work as I told you, I started by writing a diary.

01:12:43.788 --> 01:12:43.817
and I have.

01:12:43.817 --> 01:12:43.943
The kind of work and the kind of details that I managed to.

01:12:43.943 --> 01:12:44.021
collect and write, so these details I thought.

01:12:44.021 --> 01:12:44.060
I was able to.

01:12:44.070 --> 01:13:43.610
My you know I did pose some questions for analysis and using those details, I think I was able to write quite a coherent narrative and I did not start by looking at different you know, theories and in fact, I inverted the whole process.

01:13:43.980 --> 01:13:48.060
I have looked at later.

01:13:48.070 --> 01:14:26.370
I am in the process of writing the English monograph and some studies some work I've already published in English so after writing it in the form of diary; through the lens of my work, I have you know, seen the existing literature, instead of doing the inverse, okay, using existing literature to see my work.

01:14:26.670 --> 01:14:47.080
I have used my work to examine the literature and what you call as theory for example, Paul Willis's work also I've seen.

01:14:48.640 --> 01:14:54.980
I've written a chapter on the discipline committee and discipline so I've seen.

01:14:54.990 --> 01:15:03.690
Foucault’s work through the window of my work so that has been quite an interesting exercise.

01:15:04.380 --> 01:15:26.950
For example, one chapter in my book is about the work culture and the shop floor culture and what children are doing and like Paul Willis talks about how children you know, reproduced through their culture.

01:15:27.120 --> 01:15:40.950
The existing social realities, so my children, in my school, I found when I was also doing the same, but they were one premise I've been able to.

01:15:42.270 --> 01:15:44.430
To my work.

01:15:44.440 --> 01:15:59.530
You know I embarked upon very different kind of findings as compared to Paul Willis’s findings because children in my school were interested in studies.

01:15:59.530 --> 01:16:39.160
There were various circumstances which compel them to to work and to be you know the kind of things which happened in school and in classroom and that shop floor so yeah Gayithri instead of using theory initially, i've used my work; after creating a coherent narrative to look at studies through the window of my work so that is what I did fantastic.

01:16:39.670 --> 01:16:45.900
Gayithri: I think I really liked how you put it as like you have actually done the reverse.

01:16:47.580 --> 01:16:55.710
Which is very important to capture, I feel, because, like at the end of the day, who says how research should be done or what is research.

01:16:57.660 --> 01:17:17.870
I really like that piece that you clarified so who do you think is benefiting from this work if you were to think in terms of like what equity concern is your work addressing, if that is like the question that you have to answer or think about who do you think is.

01:17:19.170 --> 01:17:24.410
Whose voices are being heard through your work or who is getting to.

01:17:26.470 --> 01:17:28.310
Benefit from your work, you feel.

01:17:28.310 --> 01:17:28.340
Like.

01:17:28.340 --> 01:17:37.380
I want social inequities do you think you're addressing.

01:17:37.390 --> 01:17:49.790
Yeah I think i've been able to capture many voices, and that I feel is the essence of my work.

01:17:50.430 --> 01:18:29.660
Dr. Farah Farooqi: And the one thing that I tried to do and I kept reminding myself is to present, and when I was writing the narrative to present the voices, an array of voices and, through conversations, through you know the dialogues which were happening through.

01:18:29.860 --> 01:18:52.930
Different episodes and anecdotes and describe the situation and also to look at it through the perspective of all the participants, so that I have sort of I have had.

01:18:54.100 --> 01:19:00.890
I have, I think very carefully, try to weave that in.

01:19:02.130 --> 01:19:29.120
Because I feel that being immersed in the field for almost a decade yeah I feel it was my responsibility to present before the world the different kinds of voices the different kinds of the marginalities and.

01:19:29.120 --> 01:19:50.970
The things and issues which were there in that area in the school because, now the kind of work which is happening in the area of sociology of education.

01:19:52.280 --> 01:19:52.930
I feel.

01:19:55.140 --> 01:20:08.250
That this kind of immersion has not been possible for many sociologists and educationists of late.

01:20:09.380 --> 01:20:23.330
And, and because of which the kind of layered understanding which is needed to understand a school or its locale better does not really come out.

01:20:26.400 --> 01:20:26.430
Well.

01:20:26.620 --> 01:20:36.620
So with that sense of responsibility, I have been able to capture various voices and yeah...

01:20:39.460 --> 01:20:59.780
Is there like now thinking about like some of the work that has been going on in India, more broadly, either in relation to your work or similar to your work or kind of peripheral but important for your work, are you excited about any ongoing projects that you would like to mention.

01:21:02.590 --> 01:21:03.120
or.

01:21:04.750 --> 01:21:05.080
Maybe.

01:21:10.550 --> 01:21:11.290
Actually, many...

01:21:12.970 --> 01:21:47.010
yeah a lot of work has happened in the recent times i've read educational regimes in contemporary India, which was by Radhika Chopra and Patricia Jeffrey which came out in 2005, but, it is an edited book and again Meenakshi Thapan’s work on ethnography of schooling in contemporary India, then.

01:21:47.020 --> 01:21:55.250
Srivastava’s work, Sanjay Srivastava’s work is also quite exciting, which is on Doon school.

01:21:55.690 --> 01:22:08.060
But yeah, I feel that my work is a little different in the sense that the way I got associated with this school, firstly, and also because of.

01:22:08.060 --> 01:22:08.246
The duration of my work is important.

01:22:08.246 --> 01:22:08.273
My.

01:22:08.300 --> 01:22:16.240
For example, some of them have worked in the field for.

01:22:30.560 --> 01:22:32.920
A few months to.

01:22:34.780 --> 01:22:36.720
A year or so, but.

01:22:37.880 --> 01:22:46.291
I think the duration of work is also important, so.

01:22:46.291 --> 01:22:46.950
and then again.

01:22:50.130 --> 01:23:01.360
I think this also one thing that I must say that my work underscores the importance of practitioners to reflect upon their work.

01:23:01.850 --> 01:23:13.770
And to document it keeping in mind their positionality and, of course, the trustworthiness of the data; which I was very conscious about!

01:23:13.850 --> 01:23:32.110
I kept comparing my observations with what teachers had to say, and what was documented in the minutes of the meeting, in the minutes of discipline Committee, and they [...] agenda committee meeting, and you know observations I did...

01:23:35.100 --> 01:24:05.840
I was very conscious of establishing the trustworthiness of the data and I was conscious of my positionality but I think that this work, my work does underscore the importance of practitioners to reflect upon their work and because practitioners, they are participants in the real sense of the term, and they can improve upon their practice and also bring about some changes.

01:24:06.430 --> 01:24:17.500
And they are in the best position to understand relations of power and the structural cultural processes and the everyday.

01:24:18.200 --> 01:24:29.059
So I feel that my own journey was not just about knowing this school and society, but of self inquiry as well, so.

01:24:31.700 --> 01:24:53.160
and I tried to connect the personal issues with perspectives and context, which helped me understand the prevalent discourses in the school and to influence some new discourses so yeah and.

01:24:54.630 --> 01:25:10.760
Yeah and another important thing that you have already asked me is to write without looking at an existing theoretical perspective and that truth most useful.

01:25:11.340 --> 01:25:26.020
And because I wrote my journey and, as I told you earlier, in the form of a diary first and only later and I'm writing and I have to send the book very soon Inshallah.

01:25:27.270 --> 01:25:43.880
So writing the only data I wrote as academic articles involving references and linkages with literature and from the thick description.

01:25:43.890 --> 01:26:09.710
I was able to create a coherent narrative, but I have, as I said, and I have highlighted both patterns and contradictions in my work.

01:26:09.890 --> 01:26:34.470
But I was also, I must say that I was immersed in the historical moment, but you will realize if you go through my work that I was able to maintain a critical distance from the staff and the children to be able to view what infused with some clarity.

01:26:36.980 --> 01:26:50.540
And I've written the book or from my perspective, but I've tried to take into account as many voices as I could in describing different situations and contexts and relations and episodes.

01:26:51.490 --> 01:26:56.640
And I have not used, as I said, the existing theoretical perspective and I wrote it in the form of a diary and later I was able to, now I'm able to draw linkages and i'm writing in the form of a diary did.

01:27:02.290 --> 01:27:21.360
Give me that flexibility to explore original constructs and ideas.

01:27:22.690 --> 01:27:32.950
So yeah I think that is the hallmark of my work and, of course, I have learned from all the other work which is happening.

01:27:32.960 --> 01:27:41.790
Srivastava’s work which is amazing, and so is Meenakshi Thapan’s and Radhika Chopra’s so i've been learning.

01:27:43.530 --> 01:28:04.898
I've learned a lot from them, but I was luckily in a situation where I could spend much more time and I could reflect on my work, and I was a practitioner and yeah fantastic.

01:28:04.940 --> 01:28:08.110
Gayithri: I think that has like an end to this conversation.

01:28:08.130 --> 01:28:30.280
But I also understand that we are bound by the reality that we have to come to an end, maybe one last question, if you were to have like one or two advisors for like any newcomer who wants to jump into this kind of work in India, like a newcomer in the sense of even newcomer to context.

01:28:31.370 --> 01:28:41.008
What would be your one or two points.

01:28:41.008 --> 01:28:52.042
Dr. Farah Farooqi: Yeah I don't know all journeys, all research journeys are different and one has to be patient and also enjoy the work and the challenges and I think there is a great possibility of practitioners, of teachers, writing about their work.

01:28:52.042 --> 01:29:29.870
Which has not happened so they need to, I think this work, and I hope, and I wish that my work will give practitioners a sense of direction, that sense of hope, and it will motivate them to look at their own work with much more...

01:29:32.040 --> 01:29:48.090
You know their respect, and they will gain the confidence to document and reflect on their work, to understand their work better and to bring about changes.

01:29:49.070 --> 01:29:49.130
Gayithri: Thank you.

01:29:49.130 --> 01:29:58.970
Okay i'm going to pause because I personally wanted to just thank you, it has been a wonderful conversation.

01:29:58.990 --> 01:30:03.950
Thank you so much, thank you, maybe one last thing is if if you think.

01:30:04.650 --> 01:30:14.480
We would benefit from talking to any of people in your circles, because we are not specifically being like limited to research work we are.

01:30:14.790 --> 01:30:28.130
We would love to capture even like practitioner voice, as you rightly said, in fact, we recently interviewed a teacher who has been teaching for over 30 years and in fact that's the reason we even spoke to Harare when we did.

01:30:29.490 --> 01:30:42.780
Because we wanted to really hear like the practitioner voice, so we are very much open So if you have any recommendation for whom we should talk to, if you find that somebody would fit well with our motives and our intention to capture.

01:30:43.960 --> 01:30:48.090
The work that has been done in the subcontinent we would love to know more.

01:30:49.030 --> 01:30:53.450
yeah I surely will take off people and eight, you know.

01:30:53.830 --> 01:31:00.050
Thank you, thanks, a lot Dr for OK, I will let you go and continue with the rest of your wonderful day.

01:31:01.010 --> 01:31:02.870
Okay Thank you so much.

01:31:05.090 --> 01:31:05.700
Thank you.

01:31:05.700 --> 01:31:06.460
Thank you yeah.

01:31:07.750 --> 01:31:14.910
yeah we'll stay in touch Dr farooqi am going to get back to you, of course, we will take some time to process this.

01:31:15.660 --> 01:31:25.810
But then we will surely stay in touch and get back to you and I think very soon, one of my colleague will get back to you regarding like the pavement but then it's going to take a few months.

01:31:26.940 --> 01:31:27.990
But I just wanted.

01:31:27.990 --> 01:31:43.130
It yeah oh definitely but then we just also acknowledge that it is not usually the case that we get this kind of a fun thing so we're kind of proud of the funding that we received so we also want to make sure that it is it reaches.

01:31:44.460 --> 01:31:48.890
People who are going to partner with us in this process in this journey.

01:31:49.140 --> 01:31:51.390
So thank you so once.

01:31:51.390 --> 01:31:53.290
Again guys play by tag.

01:31:54.500 --> 01:31:54.910
yeah.

01:31:55.830 --> 01:31:56.220
yeah.