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Murari: Yeah.

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... Gayithri: introduction, but I'll still briefly introduce myself.

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Murari: Yeah, so I'm Murari Jha, and primarily, I have been working here as a social science teacher in an elementary school for last around 12 years now, and simultaneously, I have also been studying.

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So, while teaching in the school, I went for my master's at Tata Institute of Social Science Mumbai, and got that master's in elementary education.

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And later, I joined the PhD program at Jamia Milia Islamia, and I'm pursuing my PhD.

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It's in the advanced stage now.

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It's basically in a larger domain of curriculum studies and social science.

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Gayithri: Nice.

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Murari: In 2018, I got a Fulbright fellowship and attended a very short-term program at George Mason University Virginia.

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So, that exposure I have.

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So, these are some of the things which I have been doing, working and all.

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Gayithri: Okay.

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Awesome.

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Awesome.

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Thank you, Murari.

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AS I told, I'm Gayithri Jayathirtha.

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I'm actually from Bangalore, but I have been a student at University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia for about six years now.

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Four years as a doctoral student and two more years before that doing my masters' in learning sciences.

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Murari: Right.

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Gayithri: But I primarily research computer science education.

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If I have to talk about a domain, that's my home.

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But because, of course, given that all my learning experience has been in India, I have been extremely interested in theorizing and understanding more like what happens in learning contexts?

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How do we teach and learn in these contexts?

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So, I have been always interested in doing that.

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So, this was a group that we formed together called South Asian Learning Science Research Collective.

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We got a little funding to do this, but that's to interview folks like you to capture what exactly is happening and the different nuances.

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So, in this interview, we will simply be interested in hearing from you about your experiences, practices and perspectives of teaching in India.

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So, we felt that you had a uniquely valuable thinking and you work perfectly at the intersection of public education and learning.

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We will get to more of that today.

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So, in our larger study, we will be examining patterns and differences across multiple interviews from a variety of practitioners and projects that I've been supporting teaching and learning in diverse Indian contexts.

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So, importantly, we actually want to deeply consider a variety of sociocultural groups and center educational equity.

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So, in this spirit, we are actively seeking perspectives from minoritized groups and, at the same time, we want to understand how equity issues, like some of the important equity issues such as caste discrimination, LGBTQ lives, sexism, religious discrimination, indigenous epistemologies, and decolonization have been addressed and talked through in some of the contexts.

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I know this is like a mouthful, but hopefully-

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Murari: It sounds very interesting.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Thank you.

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Thank you, but I hope our questions over the course of one hour or so, hopefully, we'll get to uncover some of those.

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So, maybe we can start with some of the specifics of your context.

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So, let's start with talking about your work.

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How would you describe your professional role?

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Murari: Well, this is something very interesting you have asked.

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I have been writing regularly about this issue through one of my blogs, i.e., reflectivediary.com.

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Most of the write-ups are though in Hindi because I address to a particular group of teachers, but basically, it's a huge struggle in India to be seen teachers as professionals.

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In theory, it is that teachers are professionals, but in practical context, teachers are just the employee.

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They are not the professionals, and a major difference which I see between an employee and a professional is that the professionals have certain eligibility or certain agency or to think through, to innovate, but as an employee and the two...

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the last rung of the larger bureaucratic hierarchy, you just need to act upon.

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You need not to think.

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You just need to act upon.

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So, it's a huge struggle, and I feel for every teacher here, it's a struggle between, the transition with being an employee to becoming a professional.

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About the context you were saying, so...

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I mean, let me tell you that most of the people who are in the profession of teaching, primarily, it constitutes a large percentage of women at primary level and that percentage gets reduced as we move up.

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At elementary level, it could be around 50-50%.

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Then at higher secondary level, it could be a little lower percentage of women and more percentage of men, and from where do they come?

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Since I have written about all these really recently.

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So, I mean, I have some sort of clarity that if you look at class positions and also the caste positions.

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So, most of the women are basically in...

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I'm now telling you about Delhi where I work.

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So, most of the teachers are urban-educated women, wives basically, working as a teacher who can very well fit into the patriarchal role of working as well as taking care of the home, and most of the men are from the rural background of the neighborhood states of Delhi like Rajasthan, Punjab, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand.

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So, men teachers have mostly come from these states.

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Most of them have rural background.

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They are not urban-educated.

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Neither I am.

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Actually, I spent my 20 years in a village of Bihar and I studied over there only.

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So, when I came here and when I talked to my colleagues, I find that this is a kind of similar background most of the male teacher are sharing, but again, the female teachers have mostly urban-educated.

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They studied here in Delhi.

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So, this is the kind of context.

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Yeah.

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I teach in a government school now.

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I mean, for last 10 year.

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For the first two year, I started teaching in a private school.

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Interestingly, you might be aware, we call private school a public school here in India.

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So, we are very clever people, and yeah, the government schools...

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Now, we have a particular class coming to our schools.

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So, it's not a very diverse group in terms of class.

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It is very diverse in terms of caste, ethnicity, linguistic groups.

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So, in that way, we'll see our students who are coming to our schools are very diverse, but in terms of class, it's mostly highly underprivileged children who are coming to us.

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They are from the underprivileged group of society.

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Gayithri: Sure, and when you meant government schools, are these the state government schools or are they more central schools like KVs?

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Murari: So, in Delhi, there are four different government agencies which are running these schools.

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There are few schools run by a central government.

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That is KVs.

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There are a couple of Navodaya.

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That is the residency school run by the central government.

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Then, majority of government schools, which is around 1,030 are run by Delhi government.

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Gayithri: Exactly.

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Murari: The second largest number of schools are run by municipal body.

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That is MCD, Municipal Corporation of Delhi, and then there are few schools which are run by Delhi Cantonment Zone.

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So, this is the army people living there and they have their own schools.

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So, these are layers, but if we look at the larger landscape, so it's Delhi government and MCD.

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So, they two run most of the government schools here.

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Gayithri: MCD as in?

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Murari: Municipal Corporation of Delhi.

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Gayithri: Correct.

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Correct, and you work in one of the...

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Murari: I work in one of the Delhi government schools.

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Gayithri: Got it.

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Got it.

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Murari: So, MCD basically runs the schools up to class five.

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So, it's primary schools, which are run by the MCD, and upper primary, I mean, the elementary, secondary, and higher secondary schools are run by the Delhi government.

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Gayithri: Got it.

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Okay.

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So, how long have you been teaching?

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Murari: If I put it, total, it's been 12 years now.

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Gayithri: Okay.

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That is including the two years of working in the private school?

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Murari: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Gayithri: Awesome.

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Okay.

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We'll get to more details.

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Yeah, but this is very fascinating.

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Thank you.

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So, how can you describe a typical day in your work life?

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What does it look like?

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Murari: Yeah, so I mean, it's a very mechanical kind of thing, which you can observe within the school that we go to this school.

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It starts at 8:00 AM in the morning and the first 20 minutes is for the assembly.

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So, we teachers used to carry a attendance register in our hand and we mark the attendance of the students during the assembly only up to 20 minutes, which often extends to 25 to 30 minutes on children get back to their classroom, and then we have our timetable.

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So, there are total eight periods in a day.

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Most often we used to have six periods and some time, if this is a festive season or marriages and all, so then there are some teachers not present in this school.

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So, then we used to have seven to eight periods also.

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So, like six periods from one class to other class, we keep moving with two periods break, and that break is basically for correction work and other official works, which we are assigned, and there's a lot of official work, which has nothing to do with direct teaching/learning.

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So, that is also the government.

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As I told you that the teachers are not professionals.

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Teachers are employees, so they need to feed a lot of data to the system.

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So, the bank account, the AADHAR number and so many other things they need to collect from the students as they-

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Gayithri: General public.

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It's almost like doing your election work, like doing election work.

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Murari: Yeah, election work and all.

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So, this is how it happens, and then at two clock, the school gets over.

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Students go back to their home.

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Another half an hour is stay back for all the teachers and they're required to sit together and discuss, but often they carry on their leftover works related to the correction of the notebooks and other evidence-collecting work that what they're doing that need to be kept in record.

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So, basically, a lot of time goes on record maintenance.

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So, this is how typically it looks like.

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It's highly mechanical.

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I mean, you really don't have time to sit it and reflect or engage in any kind of meaningful practices.

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Even the classrooms are like...

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I mean, the 30 to 40-minute period, you are speaking in the middle of something and then suddenly bell rings and you have to move to the next class.

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So, this is how it typically looks like.

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Gayithri: Sure.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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This is good.

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So, I know you briefly touched upon the community with whom you work when you were talking about more broadly who are the students in your class.

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But now I'm wondering if we can just get into a little more of those details and maybe if you...

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Murari: I'm listening.

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I'm listening.

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* [phone ringing]

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Gayithri: Yeah, no problem.

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No problem.

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I'm just waiting so that we can-

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Murari: I can just [inaudible] . Give me a second.

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Gayithri: Sure.

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Sure.

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I can pause.

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Murari: Putting it on silent mode.

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Gayithri: Okay.

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Thank you.

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So, if you want to add anything with regard to the context that there's a little more, maybe if you want to talk about where the students are coming from, and maybe also let me know like if you can describe geographic location with whatever specificity is appropriate, like where is your school?

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Where are the kids coming from?

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Where are the teachers coming from Maybe?

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Murari: Yeah, so I will speak to you.

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Long back, I'll say in 2014, '15, I did a research on this, and the topic...

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It was a very small research and the and the topic is exploring and promoting pluralism in school.

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So, there I captured the data of just one classroom, not a whole school that this kind of diversity is there.

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This kind of caste, class, gender, religious background our childrens have.

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This paper is available on my blog.

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I'll share the link with you.

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Gayithri: That would be amazing.

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Thank you.

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Murari: At that time, I was doing a fellowship with RRC.

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That is Regional Resource Center of Elementary Education.

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In fact, Deborah has also worked.

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In fact, she has worked on my paper in editing and all.

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Gayithri: Ah, fantastic.

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Okay.

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Murari: Well, so, like geographically, my school is located in...

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It's a area called RK Puram.

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So, basically, for the government employees residential place.

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There's a government flat and it's a well-settled colony and there is a school in every sectors.

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But unfortunately, none of the children were coming from the government employees’ home.

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So, there are slums in between and there is a village nearby.

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So, most of the children come from those slums and from that particular village, which is nearby.

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It's a urban village.

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It's not like a village of any bigger streets, and the children from the slums or from the village, they're basically or mostly from Rajasthan, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand, and there are good number of students from Hyderabad also.

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I mean, Andhra Pradesh, not Hyderabad.

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Andhra Pradesh.

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So, these are the geographical location we can map out, and yeah, I mean, there are children from all the religious groups like Hindus, Muslims, and Christians, but they're very less in number because of the particular location of this school.

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It depends where the school is located.

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So, in my school, some majority Hindu children are coming and very less number of Muslim and Christian students are over there.

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I mean, it was difficult to find the caste data.

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I don't remember exactly whether I captured in that research, which I have been telling you.

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Even there it was difficult to ask, right?

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But we used to have something in our register to mark which student comes to his community particularly in terms of scheduled caste and scheduled tribes.

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They has to be identified because there are certain government facilities, which need to be extended to them.

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Certain scholarships and other things are available.

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So, based on that official data, I perhaps did that also.

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So, approximately 20 to 25% of students are coming from scheduled caste and scheduled tribe background.

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Gayithri: Okay.

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Sure.

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Anything specific?

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Like I know you mentioned about the government buildings and then in between slums and then slums plus the village making most of your students in your school.

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Anything about gender because we didn't touch upon that as much?

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Murari: Yeah, so this is also a very interesting phenomena that...

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The interesting thing is that it's not 50-50 that the 50% boys are there and 50% girl.

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So, in most of our co-ed schools, the majority of girls are there.

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I mean, the number of students are more girl students and the reason is that still majority of the parents are in the condition to send their boy child to a private school and a girl child to a government school.

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So, for that reason, we have more number of girl child in government schools.

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So, in a co-ed school even, the number of girl child are higher than the number of boy child.

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Gayithri: Got it, and what kind of households are the girls coming from?

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Are they still coming from the slum settlements in between and the villages or are there some from the families Of these?

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Murari: No.

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I mean, a very gradual change starts after 2015 since the new government came.

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So, my school itself, it went through a complete transformation.

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So, government has spent somewhere around 20 crore rupees to transform the infrastructure over there.

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So, now, some of the government employees have started sending their girl child first to the school.

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But now, the pandemic has started and this year we have been told that a lot of students from the middle class background are also coming to seek admission, and they have to stopped going to the private school for two reasons.

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One, the pandemic has actually hit the salary and economic status of the families, and simultaneously on the other hand, the government school infrastructure and focus on learning all has went up.

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So, that is perhaps changing, but it's not...

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I won't say that it has changed 100%, but one can notice a significant change.

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Gayithri: That's interesting.

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Thank you.

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So, I know you told you have worked for about 10 years in the government school where you are, and then two years before that in the private school, but now I'm inviting you to think broadly.

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Maybe if anything, any other teaching experiences that you have had once in a while or any summer programs, including all such things like more broadly speaking across your teaching experience, would you want to tell briefly what kinds of places have you worked then?

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Murari: What kind of places?

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I couldn't get.

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I mean, are different-

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Gayithri: It's mostly been here in Delhi.

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It's mostly been here around RK Puram, where you are, is it?

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Murari: Yeah.

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I mean, yeah.

00:22:45.470 --> 00:22:49.619
In terms of, yes, in RK Puram only.

00:22:49.709 --> 00:22:53.073
Before that, in the beginning, I worked in a private school in the outskirts of Delhi.

00:22:53.073 --> 00:22:53.550
It was a residential school.

00:22:55.899 --> 00:22:56.310
So, there, I worked.

00:22:57.510 --> 00:22:59.850
For last, around two, three years.

00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:02.820
I am working as a mentor teacher.

00:23:02.830 --> 00:23:05.220
So, I'm not in direct classroom teaching now.

00:23:06.699 --> 00:23:14.189
So, as a mentor teacher, I mean, that I have been assigned five schools, which is not the one where I am...

00:23:14.959 --> 00:23:17.050
which is a parent school where I'm posted.

00:23:17.360 --> 00:23:32.293
So, I have been promoted as a mentor teacher and five schools have been assigned where my work used to work with the teachers to improve the classroom practices, to improve the pedagogy.

00:23:32.293 --> 00:23:34.890
So, this is what I have been doing for the last two, three years.

00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:38.790
So, for the last two, three years, I'm basically working with teachers.

00:23:39.080 --> 00:23:39.580
Gayithri: Got it.

00:23:39.719 --> 00:23:40.110
Got it.

00:23:40.110 --> 00:23:41.530
So, what kind of schools?

00:23:41.530 --> 00:23:44.350
Where are these five other schools distributed?

00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:46.870
Murari: All these five schools are in South Delhi.

00:23:46.990 --> 00:23:55.520
Since I live in Gurgaon, so for me, I mean, these five schools are nearby to Gurgaon, but these are in Delhi only.

00:23:55.520 --> 00:24:03.313
So, the places are like two of these schools are in Mahipalpur.

00:24:03.313 --> 00:24:03.529
Two schools are in Rajokri.

00:24:03.529 --> 00:24:04.449
These are the places.

00:24:05.090 --> 00:24:06.210
One is in Mehram Nagar.

00:24:06.210 --> 00:24:07.680
That is near airport.

00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:13.170
So, out of five, four are single-sex schools.

00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:16.270
I mean, either boy or girl, and only one is co-ed school.

00:24:16.420 --> 00:24:16.720
Gayithri: Okay.

00:24:16.840 --> 00:24:17.179
Okay.

00:24:17.309 --> 00:24:19.120
Okay, like similar to your school.

00:24:19.180 --> 00:24:19.636
It's a co-ed school.

00:24:19.636 --> 00:24:19.653
Murari: Yeah.

00:24:19.670 --> 00:24:20.010
Yeah.

00:24:20.060 --> 00:24:20.419
Yeah.

00:24:21.830 --> 00:24:22.040
Gayithri: Okay.

00:24:23.899 --> 00:24:23.940
Great.

00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:32.973
That was a good think to know that you have actually been working as a mentor teacher, like mentoring teachers, and is that in addition to teaching or is it like your teaching has reduced?

00:24:32.980 --> 00:24:33.180
Murari: No.

00:24:34.290 --> 00:24:35.729
It's a very independent role.

00:24:35.730 --> 00:24:37.410
It's not additional to teaching.

00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:38.170
Gayithri: Got it.

00:24:38.220 --> 00:24:38.550
Got it.

00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:39.260
Okay.

00:24:39.340 --> 00:24:39.649
Okay.

00:24:40.250 --> 00:24:40.830
Interesting.

00:24:41.060 --> 00:24:52.240
So, what kinds of populations have you worked across these five schools in your recent two three years of work?

00:24:52.470 --> 00:25:01.470
Murari: As I told you that in terms of class, you won't find a difference whether you move from one school to other schools.

00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:05.380
So, it's mainly children are coming from the slums.

00:25:05.820 --> 00:25:13.240
Their parents are working in as a household maid or drivers or street vendors.

00:25:13.250 --> 00:25:25.580
So, I mean, there are like now, when I have one mentee school, which is Rajokri, so it's a village.

00:25:25.840 --> 00:25:30.049
So, a lot of girls are coming to these schools who...

00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.410
They are from the village.

00:25:33.030 --> 00:25:34.090
It's their native place.

00:25:34.110 --> 00:25:35.630
I mean, they are not the migrant one.

00:25:36.780 --> 00:25:43.570
So, again, their brothers are being sent to the private school, but those girls who are affluent also, they have their own house.

00:25:43.570 --> 00:25:49.220
They have good money, but their parents are sending them to the government school.

00:25:50.790 --> 00:26:10.140
So, in that term, we'll see as per the geographical location because that school is located in a village, urban village it is now, but still, children are coming from the affluent family, which was not the case in terms of my school at RK Puram.

00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:17.450
Yeah, but again, not in a large number.

00:26:17.620 --> 00:26:19.830
The number is still very limited.

00:26:19.830 --> 00:26:25.239
It could not be more than 5%, I think, children coming from the affluent families.

00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:26.110
Gayithri: Got it.

00:26:26.450 --> 00:26:32.590
How would you compare this with the two years of experience that you have had in the private school when you started off?

00:26:35.270 --> 00:26:40.260
Murari: Well, I see it in two different ways.

00:26:40.260 --> 00:26:43.410
The private schools were more controlled.

00:26:43.690 --> 00:26:47.270
Micromanagement was over there.

00:26:47.290 --> 00:26:47.850
So-

00:26:48.629 --> 00:26:48.889
Gayithri: I'm sorry.

00:26:49.179 --> 00:26:50.339
Where was this private school?

00:26:51.300 --> 00:26:53.519
Murari: It is in the outskirts of Delhi.

00:26:53.550 --> 00:26:56.100
So, I mean, located in the state of Rajasthan.

00:26:57.429 --> 00:27:04.030
I mean, very near to Alwar, and it's a part of a chain of a school.

00:27:04.280 --> 00:27:06.709
It branches here in Delhi also where I work.

00:27:07.579 --> 00:27:14.120
So, how I see that, the government schools is a bit a kind of...

00:27:14.820 --> 00:27:28.389
I mean, loosely-controlled in comparison to the private schools where you have absolutely no say to do what you want to do, absolutely decided everything by the management.

00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:32.470
Things were strictly managed and implemented.

00:27:33.309 --> 00:27:39.350
In government sector, there were some flexibility in that there are some rights to the employees.

00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:42.120
So, rather than using it for...

00:27:43.550 --> 00:28:02.630
or rather for a better educational practices, generally teacher take it for granted and basically avoid innovating and engaging in the teaching/learning practices in more rigorous way, that I could experience.

00:28:02.630 --> 00:28:17.159
I mean, the same opportunity which the other teacher had available, I availed for my more learning opportunities and research and all, but at the same time, there are a majority of people who are not very much interested in that.

00:28:18.070 --> 00:28:22.249
But things are again started changing since 2015 as I told.

00:28:23.080 --> 00:28:27.000
Now, here again, there are more control, which is also not very good.

00:28:27.009 --> 00:28:42.910
There has to be a way in between and there should be a focus on, again the professional development of the teachers, not on control, but yeah, a big cultural shift is required not just in school.

00:28:42.910 --> 00:28:57.719
I will say at large in government sector, there is a perception that if you have a job, you are secure and you need to seek more and more time for your leisure, or you need to work hard because the performance is not attached to...

00:28:58.709 --> 00:29:00.560
Appraisal is not attached to performance.

00:29:01.250 --> 00:29:02.570
So, a lot of challenges are there.

00:29:02.570 --> 00:29:04.819
So, a lot of cultural shift is required.

00:29:05.650 --> 00:29:08.260
Casually, I mean, things are changing here now.

00:29:09.270 --> 00:29:09.690
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:29:09.700 --> 00:29:20.190
Anything that you would want to comment on the kind of students who are coming into the private school compared to what we know about the students in the government schools?

00:29:20.950 --> 00:29:32.650
Murari: See, a major change is in terms of the capital that the private school kids bring with them in terms of cultural and social capital, and this is what our kids lack.

00:29:33.220 --> 00:29:38.790
So, most of the children who come to the private school, they already have learning skills.

00:29:38.820 --> 00:29:54.609
They can read, write and speak, and they can speak even a second language that is English, but the major, major challenge which our kids are facing is that acquiring that skill of reading and writing.

00:29:54.610 --> 00:30:06.100
So, four, five year, even they keep struggling when they are in seventh, eighth grade to express through writing and reading and forget about speaking.

00:30:06.100 --> 00:30:07.429
That's a very difficult task.

00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:37.210
So, that's something which they have advantage where they start from, what they bring from their own family, but at the same time, I also notice that the aspiration to achieve something is there in government school children because they have nothing to lose.

00:30:37.340 --> 00:30:38.750
Everything to achieve only.

00:30:39.390 --> 00:30:42.650
But again, I mean, why I'm saying this?

00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:47.129
It becomes very difficult for the private school kids to inspire that you will get a job.

00:30:47.129 --> 00:30:47.880
You'll get a car.

00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.049
They already have in most of the cases, right?

00:30:51.770 --> 00:30:57.920
But for our kids, even if we tell them that you grow up, you will be able to buy your bicycle.

00:30:58.140 --> 00:30:59.540
So, that inspires them.

00:30:59.990 --> 00:31:13.409
Yeah, I mean, there is some value in education, but the kind of challenge is the severe condition they live in, extremely severe, it makes their education extremely challenging.

00:31:14.589 --> 00:31:26.199
So, a very small percentage, I'll say hardly five to 10% of our students continue their higher education after class 12.

00:31:26.589 --> 00:31:28.509
Very small percentage.

00:31:28.529 --> 00:31:43.039
So, I mean, it becomes very, very challenging for them, and most of the school rules and regulations and norms are basically designed keeping in mind the middle class values, right?

00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:45.070
That the parents are working.

00:31:45.070 --> 00:31:46.200
They have everything.

00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:50.170
Children get up at time, go to the bus and come to this school, get back.

00:31:51.460 --> 00:31:53.710
Our students are in absolutely different condition.

00:31:54.190 --> 00:32:09.955
There are students who actually cook food for their parents, who look after their siblings, who...if these are the boy students, they themselves go for work.

00:32:10.300 --> 00:32:11.760
Sometimes they work late night.

00:32:11.860 --> 00:32:15.349
It becomes extremely difficult for them to reach school at 8:00 AM in the morning.

00:32:16.150 --> 00:32:21.219
So, I'll say that very difficult condition both are...

00:32:21.940 --> 00:32:43.940
I mean, our kids are and for them, it's something very extra effort, challenge, and also the contempt, which they need to face on everyday basis, which often teachers mock them, and for several reasons that you are not coming to school on time.

00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:47.159
Your clothes are not clean and so on and so forth.

00:32:48.850 --> 00:32:49.129
Gayithri: Sure.

00:32:51.020 --> 00:32:52.119
Thanks a lot for sharing.

00:32:53.089 --> 00:33:14.139
We'll hopefully come to some specifics sometime soon, but maybe we can first start talking about what has been really easy, like natural or intuitive aspects about working in your context or with your more recent work in the government schools?

00:33:16.549 --> 00:33:17.949
What has been really easy?

00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:30.260
For example, it could be about partnering with other teachers or partnering with your administrators or maybe even parents or other stakeholders in this situation,

00:33:30.260 --> 00:33:44.300
Murari: Yeah, so like in recent years, for long, the government school teachers complained a lot across the state, still complaining that they want to teach, but they don't have resources.

00:33:44.620 --> 00:33:51.790
So, most of the government schools lack resources, but in a specific context of Delhi, there is no resource problem here.

00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:57.720
So, whatever you wish to bring to the classroom, the government is there to support it.

00:33:57.730 --> 00:34:00.640
So, we have enormous fund available now.

00:34:00.730 --> 00:34:02.434
So, you need projector, you get it.

00:34:02.550 --> 00:34:03.990
You need a speaker, you get it.

00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:09.739
You need colorful chalks and whiteboards and computer and internet, you get it.

00:34:10.699 --> 00:34:13.440
So, now government has given a tablet to each teacher.

00:34:13.459 --> 00:34:14.810
We have around 60,000 teachers.

00:34:14.810 --> 00:34:16.760
So, all 60,000 teachers have the tablets.

00:34:16.949 --> 00:34:19.540
It's not that during the pandemic.

00:34:19.540 --> 00:34:21.509
Around two year back, it was given to all.

00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:32.339
So, at terms of resource, it has become far easier, I mean, that now none of us can complain that we don't have resources.

00:34:32.339 --> 00:34:35.940
So, that is something, much easier things to do.

00:34:39.110 --> 00:34:50.110
We have a lot of program where, like, suppose I as a mentor teacher, reaching out to the teachers too that if they have any difficulties in teaching a particular topic, let me know.

00:34:50.120 --> 00:34:53.169
If I'm expert in that particular area, I'll work with her.

00:34:53.489 --> 00:34:56.069
Otherwise, I will arrange somebody else to come and work.

00:34:56.230 --> 00:35:07.680
So, a lot of networking and support, handholding, all such infrastructure have been developed, and these are at places.

00:35:08.730 --> 00:35:13.790
Now, the major problem which I see which most of the teachers share.

00:35:14.330 --> 00:35:17.770
That is again not new, but I don't know when will it change.

00:35:18.870 --> 00:35:24.460
I mean, these children, the term I used, the notion of contempt.

00:35:25.420 --> 00:35:28.430
Either these children are coming for availing the facilities.

00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:29.870
They are not here to study.

00:35:30.900 --> 00:35:33.919
So, majority of the teacher think like this.

00:35:34.370 --> 00:35:38.339
So, I mean, how it will move?

00:35:38.549 --> 00:35:40.359
How would they see it like that?

00:35:40.379 --> 00:35:42.930
This is not something that they come for.

00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:45.280
They are here to get educated.

00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:53.350
This is not that they are here to just to get government facilities that I feel is something which holds them back.

00:35:53.350 --> 00:36:08.140
Otherwise, in terms of support, whether it's financial support, whether it's technical support, all kind of supports are now available, and one can find it far easier.

00:36:08.150 --> 00:36:11.980
Let me tell you one example for our English teachers.

00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:13.500
We used to grow.

00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:18.080
They, we have context with.

00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:33.350
We have signed MOU with British Council, American Embassy, and we provide our teachers free of cost that there is one program in English.

00:36:33.350 --> 00:36:34.239
I'm forgetting some...

00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:35.700
very expensive program.

00:36:35.700 --> 00:36:37.640
It costs around 70,000 rupees.

00:36:38.060 --> 00:36:40.340
For English teachers, it's in English language.

00:36:40.610 --> 00:36:44.600
So, such programs we provide to our teachers if they want to learn.

00:36:45.010 --> 00:36:54.769
From each school, we have sent around one to two teachers to Singapore for a training, and whenever.

00:36:54.770 --> 00:37:01.729
If a group of teacher decide that we need to learn from a particular professor and from a particular university, we can arrange it.

00:37:02.019 --> 00:37:02.319
Gayithri: Got It.

00:37:02.319 --> 00:37:08.339
Murari: So, this kind of facilities we have been making and these are the ease that we have available now.

00:37:08.509 --> 00:37:08.869
Gayithri: Sure.

00:37:09.080 --> 00:37:10.279
That's good to hear.

00:37:10.389 --> 00:37:11.440
That's good to hear.

00:37:11.549 --> 00:37:26.350
Now moving to things that are like especially tricky or challenging in your work, like the moment I start asking you about tricky or challenging, is there any one incident that pops up to you that highlights that?

00:37:30.139 --> 00:37:37.450
Murari: Well, as I told in the very beginning that bureaucracy treats teacher as subordinate.

00:37:37.560 --> 00:37:43.579
They don't identify teachers as professional or forget about as intellectuals.

00:37:44.000 --> 00:38:01.780
So, that is something, which I feel is very limiting thing, which when an organization, your superior do not trust a lot, and they just expect that you just act upon.

00:38:01.780 --> 00:38:02.480
You don't think.

00:38:03.330 --> 00:38:04.280
So, that is something...

00:38:05.570 --> 00:38:07.430
It's the nature of the bureaucracy basically.

00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:18.120
Bureaucracy works in hierarchy and those who are on the last rung of that hierarchy, they have no value.

00:38:19.770 --> 00:38:38.279
Gayithri: It's interesting because you pointed out at all these new interesting and exciting things that are being supported that you're being supported with, but at the same time, you still feel that bureaucracy is making it harder and is not treating teachers as professionals.

00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:42.370
Murari: So, yeah, what I've liked told you that all kind of support is there.

00:38:42.370 --> 00:38:48.210
So, we have a government for whom education is a political agenda.

00:38:50.179 --> 00:39:04.100
So, that government is pushing all these things, those funds, those trainings and everything, and it's a bureaucracy which has the responsibility to maintain the day-to-day working of these schools.

00:39:04.660 --> 00:39:06.570
They are creating all these hurdles.

00:39:06.590 --> 00:39:09.160
It's basically government versus bureaucracy here.

00:39:09.650 --> 00:39:10.129
Gayithri: Got it.

00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:11.400
Got it.

00:39:12.040 --> 00:39:12.590
Interesting.

00:39:13.080 --> 00:39:22.089
So, how have you dealt with these challenges, especially in handling bureaucracy and their expectations from teachers?

00:39:23.730 --> 00:39:28.650
Murari: I mean, like I as a teacher, we don't have much choice over there.

00:39:30.290 --> 00:39:34.980
So, whenever any such directions comes, we have to just submit.

00:39:35.010 --> 00:39:37.820
Bureaucracy just expects you to submit yourself, right?

00:39:38.950 --> 00:39:40.205
You don't just submit the data.

00:39:40.380 --> 00:39:41.720
You also submit yourselves.

00:39:42.470 --> 00:39:44.700
So, we have been doing that.

00:39:44.700 --> 00:39:56.560
There's no much choice about it and that is something, which is very painful and which sometimes compel me to just leave this profession and come out of this.

00:39:56.740 --> 00:39:58.920
Sometimes it's becomes so dehumanizing.

00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:00.549
Gayithri: Very unfortunate.

00:40:01.570 --> 00:40:04.530
I understand when you mean submission, it's one kind.

00:40:04.550 --> 00:40:06.500
It could be in so many different ways.

00:40:06.509 --> 00:40:16.650
Do you want to give one example of what that may feel like especially if it has pushed you towards thinking about even quitting this at some points?

00:40:17.210 --> 00:40:17.540
Murari: Yeah.

00:40:17.540 --> 00:40:23.320
I mean, see, particularly that got very much aggravated during this pandemic process.

00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:38.600
So, teachers have been assigned random duties at COVID care centers, at testing centers, at quarantine centers, and even to go and issue chalan to the people who are not wearing the mask.

00:40:39.160 --> 00:40:42.529
So, these all I see is so dehumanizing.

00:40:43.030 --> 00:40:51.370
I mean, teachers are not trained for doing all these things and the people who are assigning social duties, they don't listen anything.

00:40:52.090 --> 00:40:55.710
They're just randomly assigning it to anyone, forcing them to do.

00:40:55.740 --> 00:41:12.819
So, working hours are 12 hours and so I mean even on the name of this disaster management that this is an extraordinary time, it means that you are not treating them as professionals.

00:41:13.939 --> 00:41:16.720
This is the region that you assign them anything.

00:41:16.790 --> 00:41:19.490
Whatever they wish, they assign it to the and do this.

00:41:19.860 --> 00:41:21.660
Now go to every home, collect this data.

00:41:21.690 --> 00:41:22.279
Now do this.

00:41:22.279 --> 00:41:24.550
Now do that and it's not about Delhi.

00:41:24.590 --> 00:41:29.920
I mean, from across the country, the news, the kind of work, which the teachers are assigned.

00:41:31.160 --> 00:41:41.439
In fact, there's news from Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh that the teachers were asked to go to see that there is no cases of open defecation in the morning.

00:41:41.439 --> 00:41:41.566
That kind of stupidity is there.

00:41:41.570 --> 00:41:51.190
I mean, it just shows that how do they see the teachers that they can be asked to do anything?

00:41:51.590 --> 00:41:55.860
Gayithri: Yeah, and this is including teaching online?

00:41:56.950 --> 00:41:57.450
Murari: Yeah.

00:41:57.460 --> 00:41:57.840
This is including this.

00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.060
Gayithri: All of this is in addition to teaching online?

00:42:00.180 --> 00:42:00.669
Murari: Yeah.

00:42:00.670 --> 00:42:01.010
Yeah.

00:42:01.060 --> 00:42:01.390
Yeah.

00:42:04.569 --> 00:42:04.589
Yeah.

00:42:05.450 --> 00:42:07.490
Gayithri: So, what has been-

00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:13.879
Murari: Those who are on 12 hours of COVID duty, they are not teaching online.

00:42:13.889 --> 00:42:16.390
They are free from teaching responsibility.

00:42:17.150 --> 00:42:17.690
Gayithri: Okay.

00:42:17.879 --> 00:42:20.880
Okay, but then there are some teachers who are doing both.

00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:21.850
Murari: Yeah.

00:42:21.850 --> 00:42:22.080
Yeah.

00:42:22.110 --> 00:42:24.700
There are some teachers who are doing both.

00:42:25.650 --> 00:42:31.560
Gayithri: Interesting, and also you were mentioning about this one other thing where you...

00:42:31.620 --> 00:42:39.790
like some of the teachers think that the students are there to take the benefits that the government is providing, but not necessarily for education.

00:42:40.200 --> 00:42:49.960
So, is there any particular way in which you have handled it and try to support those teachers in not thinking about it that way?

00:42:51.710 --> 00:43:14.780
Murari: Well, I mean, as mentor teacher also and when I was in my own school also, so my work and the kind of disposition I used to have that itself reflects a lot that I challenge this notion of the teachers, but see what happens when you work in a particular culture.

00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:16.420
It's a culture.

00:43:16.850 --> 00:43:18.340
You find very helpless.

00:43:18.820 --> 00:43:28.009
So, if there are, say, 90 teachers and there are 85 teachers believing like that, I'll say even 80 out of 90, 89 teachers believing like that.

00:43:29.660 --> 00:43:30.900
You feel very helpless.

00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:34.060
You feel outnumbered.

00:43:34.980 --> 00:43:37.060
Minority view has no value.

00:43:39.120 --> 00:43:47.899
Ridiculed that you are philosophizing the issue, but this is the real issue that they come for the benefits only.

00:43:47.959 --> 00:43:49.140
It becomes challenging.

00:43:49.530 --> 00:44:17.090
It's a dominant culture again to ridicule, to demonize the people who are coming from the underprivileged, and interestingly, again, I say that this is the phenomena that our culture played the role that even the teacher who have come from such underprivileged background, they are not able to comprehend it because since class-wise, they are now earning well.

00:44:17.090 --> 00:44:24.989
So, they have moved up the rank, but they're not able to sympathize with those kids who are coming from...

00:44:25.330 --> 00:44:29.030
and they also say the same thing that they are coming for the government benefits.

00:44:31.590 --> 00:44:39.200
So, I won't be in the situation to claim that I made a bigger change and so and so.

00:44:39.240 --> 00:44:42.629
I'd rather feel, I mean, outnumbered and-

00:44:44.289 --> 00:44:44.689
Gayithri: Silenced.

00:44:44.689 --> 00:44:45.679
Murari: Ridiculed sometimes.

00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:46.270
Yeah.

00:44:46.270 --> 00:44:46.380
Yeah.

00:44:47.570 --> 00:44:48.630
There's a difference.

00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:51.540
That is something which I have been maintaining.

00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:54.330
I have never been silenced so far.

00:44:55.380 --> 00:44:56.810
I have been speaking.

00:44:57.700 --> 00:45:02.210
Well, again, that I have to pay the price for it also that if I have been speaking.

00:45:02.670 --> 00:45:12.399
Price in the sense every organization have certain politics or the politics means some people who do not speak will get some more benefits, right?

00:45:12.929 --> 00:45:13.299
Gayithri: Sure.

00:45:13.809 --> 00:45:15.339
More opportunities maybe.

00:45:15.349 --> 00:45:16.389
Murari: More opportunities.

00:45:16.389 --> 00:45:16.669
Yeah.

00:45:16.670 --> 00:45:16.970
Yeah.

00:45:16.970 --> 00:45:17.309
Yeah.

00:45:17.449 --> 00:45:17.739
Yeah.

00:45:18.269 --> 00:45:18.539
Gayithri: Sure.

00:45:20.240 --> 00:45:22.070
Murari: But I've not been silenced so far.

00:45:22.500 --> 00:45:22.770
Gayithri: Yeah.

00:45:22.890 --> 00:45:23.259
Thank you.

00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:24.100
Thanks a lot for that.

00:45:25.010 --> 00:45:27.080
So, what's been one of the...

00:45:27.099 --> 00:45:37.079
If we were to go across all the amazing things that we discussed and some challenges that you have been having, what do you think has been the most important aspect of your work?

00:45:37.110 --> 00:45:39.250
If you were to pick one, what would it be?

00:45:42.250 --> 00:45:43.910
Murari: This is a very difficult question.

00:45:45.290 --> 00:45:51.029
Gayithri: Maybe anything that you are looking towards, like anything that you think you're working towards constantly.

00:45:51.530 --> 00:45:51.850
Murari: Okay.

00:45:51.850 --> 00:45:52.289
Yeah.

00:45:52.289 --> 00:45:52.539
Yeah.

00:45:52.689 --> 00:45:55.950
So, well, I'll say that...

00:45:58.600 --> 00:46:09.779
I have been identifying talking about it, talking to teachers about again that professional identity and the exercise of agency and how important it is for the teachers.

00:46:10.690 --> 00:46:27.960
So, I feel that in my career as a teacher, I could identify this both what the profession means and how one can exercise the agency and how it brings a change, and one of my mission is to take it to more and more people.

00:46:27.990 --> 00:46:33.490
So, when I talk about this profession and agency, I see more and more teacher gets convinced about it.

00:46:34.240 --> 00:46:41.179
So, that is one thing, and when I talk profession and agency, I always talk about it is extremely important to keep learning.

00:46:41.469 --> 00:46:44.000
So, once you are a teacher, it doesn't mean that you know everything.

00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:56.300
So, keep upskilling yourself and keep adding degrees, learning, interacting with the people, engaging in good conversations, attending workshops and seminars.

00:46:56.680 --> 00:47:06.520
So, that is something which I feel I have been doing and I'm very fascinated about it, and one thing which my research is that is a little...

00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:17.449
I mean, it's related to again school only, where I am using children's lived experiences as a valid content for teaching social science.

00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:18.240
That is my...

00:47:18.520 --> 00:47:20.080
I mean, PhD research area.

00:47:21.130 --> 00:47:27.650
So, their lived experiences, they write about it and that I use as a content in the social science teaching.

00:47:27.910 --> 00:47:45.630
So, that I also feel it has a great value where I value the opinion, the notions, the lived experiences of our students as very valued content in our classroom and that immediately makes them important agent that what they think, what they write has also some value.

00:47:46.080 --> 00:47:48.470
Gayithri: Yeah, that's amazing.

00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:57.969
Yeah, so you're trying to value students and teachers in this space and that is what you think you're working towards.

00:47:57.969 --> 00:47:58.199
Fantastic.

00:47:58.250 --> 00:47:58.640
Murari: Right.

00:47:58.859 --> 00:47:58.960
Right.

00:48:00.020 --> 00:48:04.520
Gayithri: So, are there any one or two aspects of your work that you would like to change?

00:48:04.550 --> 00:48:05.820
I know you mentioned a few.

00:48:05.860 --> 00:48:09.090
Maybe if you'd want to quickly point them out once again for us.

00:48:10.889 --> 00:48:11.769
Murari: I mean, yeah.

00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:13.290
Okay.

00:48:13.330 --> 00:48:15.320
I mean, the work condition you're talking about?

00:48:15.610 --> 00:48:28.990
Gayithri: Oh, in general, more broadly like your work, that whatever you do with your students, whatever you do with the teachers that you work with, any one or two aspects that you are looking to change.

00:48:29.110 --> 00:48:29.550
Murari: Yeah.

00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:31.160
I feel that...

00:48:31.710 --> 00:48:38.270
I mean, the people in the field of teaching should come from a more diverse background.

00:48:38.270 --> 00:48:46.500
It would be seen as one of the most aspirational profession, not as a last resort, which most of the teachers are joining.

00:48:46.500 --> 00:49:01.500
So, that I really feel needs to change, and if I get an opportunity sometime, though I have to think that how it is possible, but I would like to de-bureaucratize it.

00:49:01.520 --> 00:49:04.600
I mean, you have the example of American schools.

00:49:06.240 --> 00:49:12.180
It may have its own limitation, but in terms of bureaucracy, it has a very short chain of bureau bureaucracy.

00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:26.090
So, district committee, generally a county has a SMC committee that appoints a educational superintendent and that educational superintendent then deal with the school principals.

00:49:26.099 --> 00:49:34.630
So, that's very short bureaucracy, but here, this chain is of around 18 to 20 officials, between these teacher and top officers.

00:49:36.610 --> 00:49:41.340
Gayithri: Okay, and how do you see that coming in the way of your work?

00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:58.000
Murari: I mean, see, so a decision which is taken at the top when it comes to the teacher, it gets diluted a lot, and if you as a teacher want to tell something, most often it never reaches to the top.

00:49:58.490 --> 00:50:10.690
So, that's a big hurdle I'll say, and most of the decisions are taken by the bureaucracy and the people who are in the bureaucracy, they have nothing to do with education.

00:50:11.180 --> 00:50:13.000
Today, they are heading the education department.

00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:15.259
Tomorrow, they will head the industry department, right?

00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:20.149
But they are the one who are making the decision who has no expertise.

00:50:20.540 --> 00:50:23.350
Gayithri: Yeah, sure.

00:50:23.350 --> 00:50:23.740
Thanks.

00:50:24.299 --> 00:50:32.770
So, now, let's zoom out and look more broadly because I think you will really enjoy maybe reflecting a little on this.

00:50:33.970 --> 00:50:40.439
So, you moved from the private to public and you also even chose teaching in the first place.

00:50:40.459 --> 00:50:47.100
As you said, it sounds like you didn't choose this as a last option like, "Oh, I didn't have anything else to do.

00:50:47.130 --> 00:50:50.000
Therefore, I did this," but then you chose it very intentionally.

00:50:50.040 --> 00:50:51.796
Murari: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:50:51.796 --> 00:50:51.904
Gayithri: No?

00:50:51.904 --> 00:50:52.769
Murari: I didn't chose it.

00:50:52.940 --> 00:50:53.190
No.

00:50:53.190 --> 00:50:53.575
No.

00:50:53.960 --> 00:51:00.159
Gayithri: Okay, so I would then love to know, like what motivated you to do this work that you're doing today?

00:51:00.499 --> 00:51:11.059
Murari: Oh, well, I'll say that it's the people who I came across, some of the mentors, some of the professors whom I met.

00:51:11.849 --> 00:51:23.280
In fact, they changed or helped me change my world view, my disposition, and in fact put me a position where I love this profession, but yeah, I didn't came out of choice.

00:51:23.750 --> 00:51:26.530
Gayithri: Interesting, so would you want to tell us a little more about that?

00:51:26.530 --> 00:51:38.140
Murari: Yeah, so I mean, like any other North Indian, boy particularly, and a bright one, I was also preparing for civil services exams.

00:51:38.150 --> 00:51:43.670
So, it's a kind of cultural inspiration, which all the people from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar-

00:51:44.410 --> 00:51:44.600
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:51:44.890 --> 00:51:51.879
... Murari: goes through and they spend some four, five years of their life to get that Lall Batti, the symbol of power.

00:51:53.359 --> 00:51:58.880
So, I was also doing that only, but again, after a couple of attempt, I failed.

00:51:59.140 --> 00:52:05.229
So, then I was supposed to have some security and job as most of the people do as a last resort.

00:52:05.230 --> 00:52:15.140
So, I went for the B.Ed and in the B.Ed, I met a very interesting professor, Professor Farah Farooqi, and she actually inspired me a lot.

00:52:15.250 --> 00:52:18.870
So, she met me in 2007, and this is 2020.

00:52:19.540 --> 00:52:29.410
So, for last 13 years, she has been my mentor, and she in fact has been guiding me, and now she's my PhD supervisor also.

00:52:29.600 --> 00:52:30.589
Gayithri: Oh fantastic.

00:52:31.259 --> 00:52:33.700
Murari: So, yeah, so it's her.

00:52:33.700 --> 00:52:52.050
I'll say that it's she who actually brought a significant change in my world view and in my passion for teaching and learning, and yeah, there's a lot of change I could see in my thinking and in my interest in for this profession after my degree from Tata Institute of Social Sciences where I met Deborah also.

00:52:52.050 --> 00:52:53.370
She was my batch mate over there.

00:52:54.340 --> 00:52:55.030
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:52:55.050 --> 00:52:55.530
Interesting.

00:52:55.730 --> 00:52:57.389
So, you talked about Dr.

00:52:57.449 --> 00:53:07.000
Farah Farooqi leading you up and you met her in your B.Ed program, assuming she was teaching while you were there as a student.

00:53:08.500 --> 00:53:26.010
So, would you want to elaborate a little more on how was that helping you push forward and think more closely about teaching and how did that influence your decision to take this up?

00:53:27.700 --> 00:53:28.060
Murari: Yeah.

00:53:28.060 --> 00:53:29.820
I mean, lot of things were there.

00:53:29.820 --> 00:53:44.130
So, suppose, in our schools also we have a very, as I told earlier also, we have very ritualized environment, mechanized environment where there are rituals within the schools and also like even in the B.Ed.

00:53:44.160 --> 00:53:45.960
when we used to write the assignments.

00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:53.119
So, students used to write the assignments in 20 pages, in 25 pages, in 30 pages.

00:53:53.200 --> 00:54:09.364
So, what they used to do that they copy from different sources, put it together and submit it to the teacher, and I was the one who wrote an assignment in, say, four pages, five pages, but what the difference was that it used to be very original.

00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:15.290
I mean, it was based on my own original thinking, my own empirical experiences.

00:54:16.029 --> 00:54:26.130
That she identified that this is something very different, which I have been doing and she used to give me more, better grades than the one who wrote in 30 pages and 40 pages.

00:54:27.050 --> 00:54:57.930
So, some sort of connect developed between the two where I started enjoying independent thinking and expressing and she started valuing it, and I gradually realized that it has a very unique value in the teaching and learning, that original thinking, and the opportunities to express rather than engaging a lot in the rituals and all, you know, that you need to do this, you need to do that because it's a part of the rituals.

00:54:57.940 --> 00:55:01.560
So, I have been breaking a lot of rituals in my classrooms, in my school also.

00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:03.600
Gayithri: Interesting.

00:55:03.929 --> 00:55:04.459
Interesting.

00:55:04.460 --> 00:55:05.140
Yeah, sure.

00:55:05.389 --> 00:55:06.989
Very, very fascinating.

00:55:07.120 --> 00:55:10.890
Murari: And then, I mean, she kept suggesting a lot of readings.

00:55:10.900 --> 00:55:12.950
So, those readings also helped a lot.

00:55:14.029 --> 00:55:16.980
So, I have been reading regularly since then.

00:55:17.470 --> 00:55:23.119
So, a lot of educational literature I've read, which really influenced me a lot.

00:55:23.889 --> 00:55:25.766
Gayithri: Would you want to name one or two?

00:55:25.910 --> 00:55:27.090
Murari: Yeah, definitely.

00:55:27.469 --> 00:55:37.589
The most influenced I am is from Paulo Freire's work, that is Pedagogy of the Oppressed, about precision in thinking.

00:55:37.620 --> 00:55:40.620
I really wonder how can somebody write like this?

00:55:40.630 --> 00:55:46.839
So, John Dewey's work of democracy and school and how we think.

00:55:46.849 --> 00:55:50.009
Michael Apple's work, Democratic Schools.

00:55:50.529 --> 00:55:58.194
So, these are some of the writers and literature, when I was at TISS, so we...

00:55:58.194 --> 00:56:03.420
There, I got a lot of other readings also and professors I met over there.

00:56:03.759 --> 00:56:07.169
Professor Padma Sarangapani was one of the most inspirational professor.

00:56:07.170 --> 00:56:11.350
So, I mean, meeting people and reading some of the books.

00:56:12.040 --> 00:56:16.800
So, that actually brought a significant change that I see.

00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:17.440
Gayithri: Fantastic.

00:56:17.440 --> 00:56:18.040
Fantastic.

00:56:18.320 --> 00:56:26.809
Maybe one question that I'm very curious and I don't know, well, if you would even want to take it up is in your...

00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:38.890
You did your B.Ed., and you chose to work in the private school for a couple years and then you switched to the government school, and then that's where you have been for the next 10 years.

00:56:39.190 --> 00:56:43.910
So, would you want to comment on how you chose to make that shift?

00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:55.770
Murari: The answer is hidden again in the culture that people here aspire for the government job because it brings security.

00:56:56.500 --> 00:56:57.710
It brings regular pay.

00:56:58.250 --> 00:57:04.710
It brings after-job retirement benefits, which are not available in the private sector.

00:57:05.030 --> 00:57:07.670
So, it was a cultural...

00:57:07.710 --> 00:57:10.279
I mean, a cultural facility to shift easily.

00:57:10.300 --> 00:57:11.530
So, that shifted easily.

00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:13.990
Gayithri: Sure.

00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:15.259
That's fantastic.

00:57:15.309 --> 00:57:19.880
Fantastic, and I know you mentioned a whole bunch of people who have inspired your work.

00:57:22.100 --> 00:57:28.190
If you want to add any more folks to that list, feel free to at this point.

00:57:30.200 --> 00:57:30.400
Murari: Yeah.

00:57:30.460 --> 00:57:35.250
I mean, you want the writers which have been reading or the people?

00:57:35.600 --> 00:57:35.890
Gayithri: Both.

00:57:36.250 --> 00:57:36.710
Both.

00:57:37.560 --> 00:57:37.870
Murari: Okay.

00:57:38.450 --> 00:57:40.299
So, people are definitely...

00:57:40.299 --> 00:57:51.879
I mean, always the access of my inspiration has been Professor Farah Farooqi, but later a few more people, at least only like Professor Nandini Manjrekar, Professor Disha Navani.

00:57:51.890 --> 00:57:55.890
They all inspired me a lot and have been inspiring.

00:57:55.890 --> 00:57:59.490
It's not that I met them at during the course and the lessons is over.

00:58:00.040 --> 00:58:04.100
We keep coming across in different seminars and workshops.

00:58:04.550 --> 00:58:05.900
I keep writing.

00:58:05.910 --> 00:58:06.990
They keep appreciating.

00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:11.900
They write, I read and so we now have a good rapport.

00:58:12.210 --> 00:58:24.850
I'm the part of that academic culture and to the extent now, for last around two, three years, we have in India an organization called CESI, Comparative Education Society of India.

00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:30.149
So, it conducts annual seminar in education.

00:58:30.150 --> 00:58:32.099
So, research papers have been presented.

00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:39.000
So, now for last two years, I am the part of that organizing committee, executive committee member of CESI.

00:58:39.220 --> 00:58:48.919
So there again I came in the group of a bunch of university professors from JNU, Professor Nivas, Professor Arvind and so many people.

00:58:49.190 --> 00:58:52.779
So, I mean, just yeah, how am I missing?

00:58:52.780 --> 00:58:53.220
I don't know.

00:58:53.230 --> 00:58:56.250
Then 2013, '14 only, while I was doing my...

00:58:57.770 --> 00:59:03.423
I mean, fellowship as a teacher fellow at RRC where Deborah has also worked.

00:59:03.423 --> 00:59:09.010
So, I met Professor Poonam Batra and she has been one of the phenomenal professor.

00:59:09.010 --> 00:59:15.359
Her write-ups, her articles and her speeches are so amazing.

00:59:15.980 --> 00:59:18.740
I mean, it seems like you just get lost in that.

00:59:19.760 --> 00:59:28.500
So, these all have worked in shaping my life and couple of more writers, which I identify who played very important roles.

00:59:28.510 --> 00:59:33.869
So, I have been reading Will Durant, one of the American thinker and writers.

00:59:33.870 --> 00:59:38.060
So, one of his book is very interesting, Story of philosophy.

00:59:38.060 --> 00:59:43.249
So, that is one of my very favorite one, and I have also been reading...

00:59:43.390 --> 00:59:45.520
My research work is very much...

00:59:47.330 --> 00:59:50.910
I'll say I got inspired from the work of Professor Mary Roth.

00:59:50.910 --> 00:59:51.569
She's from Netherland.

00:59:52.409 --> 00:59:54.523
So, she worked on a similar thing which I have been working.

00:59:54.523 --> 00:59:54.535
She worked with the primary grade kids.

00:59:54.535 --> 01:00:07.360
I am working with elementary grade kids, that how to use children lived experiences in a daily classroom transaction.

01:00:08.340 --> 01:00:08.500
Gayithri: Got it.

01:00:08.700 --> 01:00:12.249
Murari: So, I have been reading Professor Mary Roche also.

01:00:12.429 --> 01:00:31.620
So, that is something and now later becoming the part of that Fulbright community, it has brought me to all together a new niche where I have friends from across the world and different part of the countries.

01:00:32.380 --> 01:00:44.120
So, yeah, it has been a very, what I'll say, very phenomenal journey in fact, which keeps inspiring me to work further, harder.

01:00:45.110 --> 01:00:45.520
Gayithri: Awesome.

01:00:45.889 --> 01:00:46.139
Awesome.

01:00:48.080 --> 01:00:50.630
Yeah, so this has been fantastic.

01:00:50.639 --> 01:01:01.540
You spoke about like how you made this transition and all the key people that have helped you and motivated you and have kept you in this field.

01:01:01.600 --> 01:01:07.030
Maybe one question that I have is because we touched upon this earlier on during the interview.

01:01:08.020 --> 01:01:10.670
How have you thought about your work?

01:01:10.699 --> 01:01:38.310
That is your teaching, your supporting teachers, and maybe even like your research as a doctoral student, but then connecting back to your practice as a teacher, how do you think your work is addressing or how do you think it is connected to some of the social issues that we just discussed either with India more broadly or the students community that you're working with?

01:01:39.070 --> 01:01:39.540
Murari: Yeah.

01:01:40.240 --> 01:01:44.649
Gayithri: And also Murari, is it if we take another 15, 20 minutes and wrap it up?

01:01:45.080 --> 01:01:46.759
Murari: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:46.759 --> 01:01:46.765
It's okay.

01:01:46.765 --> 01:01:46.770
Gayithri: Awesome.

01:01:46.770 --> 01:01:47.230
Thank you.

01:01:47.410 --> 01:01:47.729
Thank you.

01:01:47.920 --> 01:01:48.160
Yes.

01:01:51.450 --> 01:02:23.080
Murari: I mean, my work and all my write-ups or what I speak, in last couple of years, I have been trying to synchronize my work, my thinking to the constitutional values and promote all those constitutional values of secularism, equality, justice, and I mean, this is what determines my thinking.

01:02:23.359 --> 01:02:26.980
Basically, that's the base of how I should look at the things.

01:02:26.990 --> 01:02:34.319
So, it's the constitutional values which actually gives me a platform to think that what is right and what is not.

01:02:35.179 --> 01:02:57.789
So, I have been making advocacy for all these things of greater gender equality, of addressing, which is very subtle and very challenging, the caste-based resource in the schools, which is very, very subtle and even the class-based issues as I mentioned.

01:02:57.789 --> 01:03:04.736
But very recently, I wrote a book, and not wrote, sorry.

01:03:04.980 --> 01:03:11.500
I read a book of Professor Krishna Kumar that's in Hindi, Chudi Bazaar me Ladki.

01:03:12.460 --> 01:03:26.160
So, I was a little bit aware, but after reading that book, I have become a very skeptical and have started looking at agency in a very different way.

01:03:26.550 --> 01:03:38.360
The kind of power that culture plays in shaping the disposition and overall environment where individuals’ agency has very limited role in fact.

01:03:38.370 --> 01:04:06.329
I mean, this is how I have started and particularly education and now when I look of last 75 years of education in independent India, I may be very negative in that sense, but it hasn't brought even 1% change in terms of the caste-based hierarchy and discrimination, in terms of the gender hierarchy and discrimination.

01:04:06.329 --> 01:04:09.819
It's there and in terms of the religious polarization, it's even rising.

01:04:11.090 --> 01:04:13.879
So, it has absolutely failed in that term.

01:04:14.290 --> 01:04:20.410
It's just establishing or reproducing the society that the social reproduction theory, it is really...

01:04:20.410 --> 01:04:27.870
I mean, if one has to find that where the education system is perfectly working in harmony with the social reproduction theory, so, it's India.

01:04:29.310 --> 01:04:30.599
Almost, there is no mobility.

01:04:31.450 --> 01:04:40.100
I mean, things have changed, like women have come from the villages to the urban areas, but the structure of exploitation haven't changed.

01:04:40.100 --> 01:04:40.730
It's there.

01:04:41.310 --> 01:04:44.800
It's just place has changed.

01:04:44.990 --> 01:04:46.919
So, yeah, I'm still hopeful.

01:04:46.920 --> 01:05:13.330
I'm working, but sometime I feel that it's something very limited, which I can do about this, but the only thing is that more and more people understand it that how culture plays a role, how the language that we use, how the word that we choose, that plays extremely important role in shaping our thinking about all these issues of caste, class, gender.

01:05:13.430 --> 01:05:19.940
So, it's a very large and the first thing which I feel is that to even understand and acknowledge.

01:05:20.480 --> 01:05:25.150
Otherwise, having educated, getting a bachelor's or master's degree, people think everything has changed.

01:05:25.490 --> 01:05:26.230
There's no discrimination.

01:05:26.230 --> 01:05:29.450
This is how educated people think and talk like.

01:05:30.740 --> 01:05:38.170
Gayithri: Yeah, and so you are thinking that it's a constant thing that you're working towards as you are working?

01:05:39.049 --> 01:05:39.509
Murari: Yeah.

01:05:39.570 --> 01:05:40.040
Yeah.

01:05:41.150 --> 01:05:41.490
Gayithri: Interesting.

01:05:42.090 --> 01:05:42.359
Thank you.

01:05:42.359 --> 01:05:53.940
Murari: I'll say that rather it's a shock for me, this revelation that education is not powerful enough to bring that change.

01:05:53.940 --> 01:06:01.010
There's a lot of other things need to be evoked, other political interventions and activism.

01:06:01.050 --> 01:06:04.210
I mean, those have perhaps a greater role than education.

01:06:05.040 --> 01:06:09.130
Gayithri: Is what you're thinking after reading Krishna Kumar's book.

01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:10.570
Murari: Yeah.

01:06:12.030 --> 01:06:12.760
Gayithri: Yeah, Sure.

01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:19.790
I think I know what you're talking about, so I sympathize with you.

01:06:23.730 --> 01:06:27.259
So, now we're going to ask closing thoughts.

01:06:27.870 --> 01:06:45.400
I know you spoke about this book that I've been reading, but then is there any ongoing work in India especially that you're excited about that you think has a way to address some of the challenges that we just discussed?

01:06:47.330 --> 01:06:54.769
Murari: Well, in India, about the ongoing work, I'm not...

01:06:54.789 --> 01:06:57.130
Again, I'm sorry that I'm not excited about.

01:06:57.140 --> 01:06:57.690
Rather-

01:06:57.850 --> 01:06:58.580
Gayithri: No, that's fine.

01:06:59.020 --> 01:07:00.560
You can point out whatever you're seeing.

01:07:00.790 --> 01:07:19.850
Murari: Rather we are moving towards a more medieval or primitive society with clearcut religious polarization, with established caste hierarchy, with fixed gender-based roles.

01:07:20.420 --> 01:07:40.339
So, I mean, I see that we are moving towards that direction in a very great speed, and yeah, I mean, because the way political dispensations are driving those phenomena, it's unbelievable.

01:07:42.799 --> 01:07:43.570
It's unbelievable.

01:07:43.570 --> 01:07:44.629
It's very threatening.

01:07:47.940 --> 01:07:53.470
Gayithri: So, what kind of work do you want to see if you were given a choice to...

01:07:53.610 --> 01:07:59.820
like if you could actually dream, imagine, okay, this is the kind of work that I want to see moving forward.

01:08:00.490 --> 01:08:07.240
What would that be putting aside what is not going on or what's not working fine on the ground?

01:08:08.280 --> 01:08:08.550
Murari: Yeah.

01:08:08.550 --> 01:08:12.650
I mean, again, there are some hopes.

01:08:12.650 --> 01:08:23.839
In Delhi, particularly, we have a government, which has put education on its highest agenda, spending 25% of its budget.

01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:36.689
So, I mean, still with all its limitation, it's education which has brought some mobility in the life of the underprivileged people.

01:08:38.080 --> 01:09:05.590
So, if I see any big change in coming years or what even I would like to work is to promote this politics of public education, that government should and must spend more, and more quality public institutions would come up so that people from disadvantaged sections should have greater access to quality education through public institution.

01:09:06.290 --> 01:09:18.310
So, that at least in Delhi, I'm very happy and hopeful about it that it's happening that it's on the top priority, but again, I mean, I sometimes think that it's like...

01:09:19.060 --> 01:09:20.590
Do you know the idea of flood?

01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:22.260
Gayithri: No, I don't.

01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:23.290
Murari: Flood.

01:09:23.290 --> 01:09:23.689
Flood.

01:09:23.700 --> 01:09:23.990
Flood.

01:09:24.040 --> 01:09:24.359
Gayithri: Oh flood.

01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:28.519
Yeah, of course.

01:09:28.519 --> 01:09:28.540
Yeah.

01:09:28.620 --> 01:09:39.280
Murari: So, I mean, if out of 29 states, if one or two states are promoting it and 27 states are against, media is against it.

01:09:40.090 --> 01:09:40.750
Corporates are against it.

01:09:41.560 --> 01:09:43.200
It can't last longer.

01:09:43.380 --> 01:09:47.340
Ultimately, it would be maligned, that it has no value.

01:09:47.380 --> 01:09:49.109
The research would be written in that way.

01:09:49.990 --> 01:10:14.020
So, a little skeptical about this also, but hopeful that somehow if we could go for the politics of change through greater public education, spending on that, and creating more public institutions for people from all different sections could have access.

01:10:14.030 --> 01:10:18.750
Gayithri: Murari, would you want to just expand on the flood that you mentioned?

01:10:18.750 --> 01:10:19.350
Because I think-

01:10:20.610 --> 01:10:22.240
Murari: I was giving the example that it's...

01:10:22.240 --> 01:10:27.520
Imagine Delhi public education as a tree standing tall in a flooded plain.

01:10:27.520 --> 01:10:27.950
Everywhere there's a flood.

01:10:31.360 --> 01:10:32.790
Gayithri: Yeah, I got it now.

01:10:33.790 --> 01:10:34.760
It was a metaphorical thing that you chose.

01:10:34.790 --> 01:10:35.180
Got it.

01:10:35.340 --> 01:10:35.770
Murari: Yeah.

01:10:36.010 --> 01:10:36.330
Yeah.

01:10:36.420 --> 01:10:36.926
Gayithri: Got it.

01:10:36.926 --> 01:10:37.460
Got it.

01:10:37.460 --> 01:10:45.340
Murari: So, gradually that flood, if it doesn't deplete, it will erode the soil from the root of the tree and the ultimately the tree will fell down.

01:10:45.670 --> 01:10:53.210
Gayithri: You feel like that maybe Delhi and maybe one or two other exceptional states are doing something.

01:10:53.290 --> 01:10:54.880
Murari: Kerala is another state.

01:10:55.550 --> 01:10:59.530
I mean, this year only in the March, I got the opportunity to go there.

01:10:59.530 --> 01:11:03.160
It's has a phenomenal public school system.

01:11:05.100 --> 01:11:06.220
Which state are you from?

01:11:06.780 --> 01:11:07.420
Gayithri: Karnataka.

01:11:07.870 --> 01:11:08.660
Right above Kerala.

01:11:09.820 --> 01:11:10.179
Murari: Okay.

01:11:10.860 --> 01:11:11.450
Yeah.

01:11:11.590 --> 01:11:14.230
So, amazing public school system there.

01:11:14.410 --> 01:11:14.920
Amazing.

01:11:15.370 --> 01:11:15.590
Gayithri: Yeah.

01:11:15.719 --> 01:11:17.549
The healthcare is also fantastic like-

01:11:17.599 --> 01:11:18.129
Murari: Absolutely.

01:11:18.570 --> 01:11:29.680
Gayithri: You'd be surprised, like I don't know in Delhi what it is, but in Bangalore or in Karnataka, like government hospitals are not your first go-to choice, but in Kerala, it's actually the opposite.

01:11:31.400 --> 01:11:32.059
So, yeah.

01:11:32.639 --> 01:11:42.440
Murari: Here, also, in Delhi also, it's not first choice of people, but a very innovative idea the government has come up with, that is the Mohalla Clinic.

01:11:42.440 --> 01:11:51.840
So, now in every settlement with 50,000 or more population, there used to be a Mohalla Clinic.

01:11:51.850 --> 01:11:58.316
So, for some day-to-day medical consultation, people go and get some medicines, which are freely available.

01:11:58.559 --> 01:12:02.410
So, that is something very interesting happening here.

01:12:02.410 --> 01:12:02.559
Gayithri: Nice.

01:12:02.559 --> 01:12:03.059
Nice.

01:12:03.559 --> 01:12:04.120
Interesting.

01:12:05.160 --> 01:12:18.080
So, is there anything else that you think we didn't have a chance to talk about, your work or the broader educational context that you think you want to add?

01:12:18.429 --> 01:12:20.040
Murari: I don't know.

01:12:20.270 --> 01:12:25.059
In fact, both of us are interested in this field, so we can talk for hours and hours.

01:12:25.059 --> 01:12:25.379
Gayithri: That's true.

01:12:25.540 --> 01:12:26.070
That's true.

01:12:28.650 --> 01:12:51.000
Murari: Yeah, I mean, let's move, and I will ask Deborah also and you also that keep posting me what's happening and I like to know about more about it, read more about it, and wherever you feel that I can contribute more, I'll contribute more.