WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:01:04.866
<v Radha> And I was trained as an environmental scientist, formally as in my PhD is in Environmental Science and Engineering from IIT Bombay.

00:01:05.376 --> 00:01:16.156
<v Radha> But the way I really see sort of where I am today, I think I call myself an educator.

00:01:16.386 --> 00:01:22.126
<v Radha> That's probably the best description of where I am today.

00:01:22.676 --> 00:01:28.316
<v Radha> And really just briefly on trajectory.

00:01:28.636 --> 00:01:34.986
<v Radha> I came into teaching and education as an educator much later in my career actually.

00:01:35.716 --> 00:01:38.616
<v Radha> I started off as a consultant, environmental consultant.

00:01:38.616 --> 00:01:40.946
<v Radha> Worked in the U.S.

00:01:40.946 --> 00:01:41.870
<v Radha> Worked in the Middle East.

00:01:41.870 --> 00:01:42.966
<v Radha> Worked all over the place.

00:01:42.966 --> 00:01:49.576
<v Radha> And then the switch to school teaching specifically.

00:01:50.046 --> 00:02:17.406
<v Radha> So I was very keen on school teaching because I really felt like given our education system and where it's taken all of us, and particularly my generation, I was quite convinced that, in a evangelical fashion, that the best way forward is to actually indoctrinate children to think differently.

00:02:18.806 --> 00:02:23.456
<v Radha> So frankly, I came into teaching at a much later point.

00:02:24.436 --> 00:02:30.486
<v Radha> About let's say, 12, 15 years ago maybe.

00:02:30.886 --> 00:02:32.386
<v Radha> Not even 15, less than that, yeah.

00:02:33.816 --> 00:02:34.646
<v Radha> So yeah.

00:02:34.646 --> 00:02:39.616
<v Radha> So that's how I came into environmental education if you'd like to call it that, yeah, yeah.

00:02:39.666 --> 00:02:40.586
<v Suraj> Okay, thank you.

00:02:40.586 --> 00:02:44.306
<v Suraj> And right now you're visiting faculty at APU, is that right?

00:02:44.336 --> 00:02:44.846
<v Radha> That's right.

00:02:44.846 --> 00:02:47.816
<v Radha> I'm a visiting faculty at APU's School of Development.

00:02:48.596 --> 00:02:52.025
<v Radha> And I am one of the editors now of i wonder…, the University’s science magazine for middle and high school teachers..

00:02:52.056 --> 00:02:53.736
<v Radha> So that's a formal position.

00:02:54.316 --> 00:03:01.226
<v Radha> I also am a member of the Food Sovereignty Alliance.

00:03:01.846 --> 00:03:08.286
<v Radha> And working on a children's program with rural children as well.

00:03:08.406 --> 00:03:11.766
<v Radha> So that's really what I do yeah.

00:03:12.656 --> 00:03:12.848
<v Radha> Now a lot more of that, yeah.

00:03:12.848 --> 00:03:13.376
<v Suraj> All right.

00:03:14.676 --> 00:03:18.106
<v Suraj> Well, I look forward to learning a little bit more about all of that.

00:03:18.146 --> 00:03:27.496
<v Suraj> Before we start formally, I'll just say one more time that in this interview, we're simply interested in hearing about your perspectives, practices and experiences.

00:03:27.766 --> 00:03:35.206
<v Suraj> In our larger project, we'll examine patterns and differences and how a variety of researchers have explored teaching and learning and diverse Indian contexts.

00:03:36.086 --> 00:03:40.006
<v Suraj> All of this is a way to say don't feel that you need to speak on behalf of-

00:03:40.236 --> 00:03:41.966
<v Radha> no, absolutely, correct, yeah.

00:03:42.676 --> 00:03:49.236
<v Suraj> Importantly, we want to deeply consider a wide of socio cultural groups and center educational equity in this work.

00:03:49.456 --> 00:04:01.116
<v Suraj> In this spirit, we actively seek perspectives from minoritized groups and connections to important social issues such as caste discrimination, LGBTQ+ wellbeing, sexism, religious discrimination, indigenous epistemology.

00:04:01.116 --> 00:04:02.746
<v Suraj> I know you've written about and thought about.

00:04:02.966 --> 00:04:06.726
<v Suraj> Ecological crises, obviously that's [inaudible] the interview today and decolonization.

00:04:08.046 --> 00:04:10.146
<v Suraj> So let's get into formally.

00:04:10.326 --> 00:04:16.906
<v Suraj> So we're really excited to hear about your work in science education, especially thinking about sustainability and climate change education.

00:04:17.346 --> 00:04:22.346
<v Suraj> Let's start by talking about some of your recent work with students and educators around environmental education.

00:04:22.346 --> 00:04:28.326
<v Suraj> Then later we'll talk about, return to the story that brought you there and some of your research more broadly.

00:04:28.576 --> 00:04:35.596
<v Suraj> So can you tell us about some of what you've been working on currently or recently with students and teachers around environmental education?

00:04:37.246 --> 00:04:53.856
<v Radha> It's been assorted in the sense that over the last three years, I think, I've been dabbling with environmental education in different contexts and under different conditions.

00:04:54.226 --> 00:04:55.566
<v Radha> So let me just clarify this.

00:04:55.576 --> 00:04:57.426
<v Radha> So there have been projects.

00:04:57.826 --> 00:05:07.251
<v Radha> One, of course, that I have been working on consistently for a while is with this group called Gen Wise, which is based out of Bangalore and I am a mentor for them.

00:05:07.496 --> 00:05:14.083
<v Radha> And I actually run and conduct online as well as in person courses.

00:05:14.096 --> 00:05:16.266
<v Radha> This was online courses because of the last two years.

00:05:16.306 --> 00:05:27.776
<v Radha> But in 2019 and before that, we were doing offline field courses for children in the ages, typically middle school to high school students.

00:05:28.396 --> 00:05:36.876
<v Radha> And this was really, there's a particular track in the GenWise's education program which is called the Planetary Web of Life.

00:05:37.466 --> 00:05:45.636
<v Radha> And I was really designing and running, yeah, programs.

00:05:45.756 --> 00:05:49.096
<v Radha> The educational programs for children in the age group that I mentioned.

00:05:49.566 --> 00:05:58.756
<v Radha> It actually started off with the three week education program for middle to high school students.

00:05:58.816 --> 00:06:02.716
<v Radha> And I built that around Yuvah Noah Harari's book, Sapiens.

00:06:04.776 --> 00:06:15.736
<v Radha> So around that and I guess one could call it sustainability education, but I really like to think of it as a systems view of life, so to speak.

00:06:15.746 --> 00:06:18.436
<v Radha> So looking at life systemically.

00:06:20.666 --> 00:06:23.806
<v Radha> So that's one basket.

00:06:24.476 --> 00:06:32.466
<v Radha> The other is, I have begun collaborating with the People's Archive of Rural India [PARI] which is run by P Sainath.

00:06:33.136 --> 00:06:35.516
<v Radha> They have an education program, PARI education.

00:06:38.826 --> 00:06:40.166
<v Radha> So I've engaged with them for a while now.

00:06:40.166 --> 00:06:47.626
<v Radha> I just prepared one module or one unit as you might call it on biodiversity and conservation.

00:06:48.136 --> 00:06:53.406
<v Radha> And really the first one in is on classification, biological classification and diversity.

00:06:53.416 --> 00:06:56.066
<v Radha> And this is something that anybody can take.

00:06:56.536 --> 00:07:01.276
<v Radha> Okay, you can take it as a unit and go out and teach middle school children.

00:07:01.576 --> 00:07:05.760
<v Radha> It's almost like a lesson plan with enough details and all of that sort of thing.

00:07:05.760 --> 00:07:09.286
<v Radha> So that's PARI education and I will be collaborating with them as we go along.

00:07:09.956 --> 00:07:17.126
<v Radha> Then there is a group of young people who are from Ashoka University, from Azim Premji University, Bengaluru, undergrad students.

00:07:19.376 --> 00:07:26.906
<v Radha> So they were very keen during the pandemic to teach children.

00:07:27.666 --> 00:07:37.716
<v Radha> And because they're part of what is called ‘Yugma’ network which is a youth network inspired by Friday for Future and all of that.

00:07:37.826 --> 00:07:53.676
<v Radha> And they've done some stellar work on mobilizing support campaigns against the environmental impact assessment 2020 notification that the government of India had put out and various other actions ... And climate change is a big focus for them.

00:07:54.026 --> 00:08:01.516
<v Radha> So some of the young people on that were part of a workshop that I was doing on education.

00:08:02.206 --> 00:08:06.276
<v Radha> And so then they were very keen to go out and work with children.

00:08:07.026 --> 00:08:08.856
<v Radha> And so they designed programs.

00:08:10.406 --> 00:08:12.936
<v Radha> And I shared with them some of the programs that I do.

00:08:15.496 --> 00:08:20.233
<v Radha> So I've just been mentoring them on environmental education programs that they could take out and teach.

00:08:20.476 --> 00:08:21.936
<v Radha> And they've been preparing them.

00:08:22.366 --> 00:08:25.156
<v Radha> Whenever possible, I just provide some resources.

00:08:25.156 --> 00:08:28.716
<v Radha> But we have calls and we're discussing very actively.

00:08:29.136 --> 00:08:33.286
<v Radha> So that's a mentoring sort of role, in a sense.

00:08:36.226 --> 00:08:39.956
<v Radha> And then, of course, work that I do with rural children.

00:08:41.176 --> 00:08:45.846
<v Radha> And unfortunately, it's really been online the last two years.

00:08:45.846 --> 00:08:47.576
<v Radha> And then of course, I Wonder.

00:08:48.016 --> 00:08:52.696
<v Radha> And the last issue that we brought out was teaching as if the Earth matters.

00:08:53.356 --> 00:08:54.276
<v Radha> Issue six.

00:08:54.336 --> 00:08:56.206
<v Radha> And that's available for download.

00:08:56.206 --> 00:08:59.736
<v Radha> But the focus of that was teaching as if the Earth matters.

00:08:59.936 --> 00:09:10.366
<v Radha> So there's a very strong focus on the real challenges that we face in the present and in the future, yeah, yeah.

00:09:10.726 --> 00:09:12.936
<v Radha> So this is sort of, yeah, it's bit of a motley-

00:09:14.776 --> 00:09:34.246
<v Suraj> yes, I appreciate hearing about all of that because it's quite interesting to think about how you're thinking about environmental education has translated into work with children, with educators and with activists in a very formal course type settings and these very informal activist settings.

00:09:34.246 --> 00:09:37.566
<v Suraj> So I have several follow up questions that I'd like to take up with you.

00:09:38.066 --> 00:09:38.670
<v Radha> Sure, sure.

00:09:38.670 --> 00:09:45.956
<v Suraj> So it sounds like much of this work you are based in a rural context or think or work with rural children, you mentioned.

00:09:45.956 --> 00:09:47.576
<v Suraj> Is that a fair characterization?

00:09:47.576 --> 00:09:49.656
<v Suraj> And if so, why that choice?

00:09:50.446 --> 00:09:57.706
<v Radha> That's an interesting one because a significant amount of work over the last three years was with the urban children.

00:09:57.706 --> 00:10:02.176
<v Radha> But my interest, over the last four or five years.

00:10:02.356 --> 00:10:06.786
<v Radha> So I have to step back a little bit to tell you why my interest.

00:10:07.086 --> 00:10:22.656
<v Radha> I mean I have a very strong interest in rural children and government schools where there is very limited access to resource and limited access to really education.

00:10:23.046 --> 00:10:24.311
<v Radha> Quality education, right?

00:10:24.586 --> 00:10:32.486
<v Radha> So I have a deep interest in that, primarily driven by just the inequality issue, right?

00:10:32.526 --> 00:10:41.886
<v Radha> I mean that here are young people who given the same the opportunity would be able to contribute and for their own well being and growth.

00:10:42.986 --> 00:10:52.306
<v Radha> All it requires is a certain, is access to opportunities and how do we ensure that that is made possible?

00:10:52.446 --> 00:10:59.076
<v Radha> And if we don't do this for this generation than how are we going to get rid of inequity and discrimination?

00:10:59.636 --> 00:11:08.546
<v Radha> So it's really driven by a very strong, I guess, a sense of justice, so to speak.

00:11:08.546 --> 00:11:17.156
<v Radha> But also, there's another element of that is that knowledge which comes from lived experience of these children, right?

00:11:17.906 --> 00:11:24.886
<v Radha> And I've seen this up close when I was teaching at Rishi Valley which was from 2008 to 2015.

00:11:25.326 --> 00:11:25.786
<v Radha> I think-

00:11:26.186 --> 00:11:28.356
<v Suraj> you were teaching in a school, is it?

00:11:28.356 --> 00:11:37.446
<v Radha> In a school, Rishi Valley Education Centre, which is a Krishnamoorthy Foundation school and it’s in Andhra Pradesh near Madanpalle.

00:11:38.146 --> 00:11:46.816
<v Radha> And I was there from 2008 to 2015 and really was teaching environmental science to class 11 and 12.

00:11:46.816 --> 00:11:51.696
<v Radha> And then because it's a residential school, you'll end up working with students of all ages.

00:11:52.316 --> 00:11:56.596
<v Radha> But that is an urban community in a rural setting.

00:11:58.016 --> 00:11:58.446
<v Radha> You see?

00:11:59.146 --> 00:12:02.327
<v Radha> So I was doing a lot of work with the rural community on livelihoods and sustainability and it's a very ecologically fragile area.

00:12:02.327 --> 00:12:02.359
<v Radha> 10 years of drought and this type of thing.

00:12:02.359 --> 00:12:11.796
<v Radha> And it's in Rayalaseema which is semi-arid.

00:12:11.796 --> 00:12:16.036
<v Radha> And it's a pastoralist community and small farmer community.

00:12:16.676 --> 00:12:23.366
<v Radha> And they, some of us engaged very closely with the local government school, okay?

00:12:23.826 --> 00:12:36.996
<v Radha> So that is when you, there were so many instances where you suddenly realized that is this legitimate lived experience knowledge, the knowledge based on that that these children have.

00:12:37.816 --> 00:12:56.006
<v Radha> And that is disregarded in a very strange way because it's literally, you come to school and you are studying from textbooks and a prescribed syllabus which completely ignores that information and knowledge that you come with.

00:12:56.506 --> 00:12:58.186
<v Radha> Which means it erodes your confidence.

00:12:58.536 --> 00:13:00.056
<v Radha> It erodes your identity.

00:13:00.746 --> 00:13:07.476
<v Radha> And it also erodes your capability to be resilient, right?

00:13:07.506 --> 00:13:13.566
<v Radha> I mean when you come from socio-ecological background and you know how to survive there, right?

00:13:13.896 --> 00:13:14.896
<v Radha> You have that knowledge.

00:13:14.906 --> 00:13:16.876
<v Radha> You have elders who have that knowledge.

00:13:17.366 --> 00:13:23.516
<v Radha> But you're in a school where curriculum tells you something completely different.

00:13:23.696 --> 00:13:32.086
<v Radha> So that's when I really began to think about what is really science and what is science education and what is education?

00:13:33.726 --> 00:13:42.736
<v Radha> So in a sense that was very, and now, and as I'm articulating to you, it always happens when you're articulating, there's more clarity in your own head.

00:13:43.556 --> 00:13:48.596
<v Suraj> Yes, that's always because it feels like we're along the journey with you.

00:13:49.126 --> 00:13:49.746
<v Radha> Correct, correct.

00:13:50.036 --> 00:14:08.426
<v Radha> Yeah, so that's where this, what you picked up about a very, or shall I say, subliminally, there is this need to focus on rural situations and yeah.

00:14:09.946 --> 00:14:10.426
<v Suraj> Okay.

00:14:11.376 --> 00:14:19.326
<v Suraj> I had some other follow ups from your first thing, but let's continue with this a little bit because there's so much interesting stuff in what you said.

00:14:19.326 --> 00:14:33.296
<v Suraj> So you asked this question about what is really science and what is really education and as something that this time working with these children and watching their own background and sense of identity be erased on this way.

00:14:33.556 --> 00:14:37.086
<v Suraj> That I think would be really interesting for our audience to hear you talk more about.

00:14:37.086 --> 00:14:51.069
<v Suraj> So as I was reading your article this morning, I was thinking about, I think it was an Albert Einstein that was something like the nature of the we won't find solutions through the same thinking that the things that brought out the problem.

00:14:51.116 --> 00:14:51.581
<v Radha> Exactly, exactly.

00:14:51.581 --> 00:14:53.116
<v Suraj> And it has been really interesting.

00:14:53.116 --> 00:15:00.736
<v Suraj> And in our field of the learning sciences we have seen, there is some interest now, and particularly indigenous onto-epistemologies.

00:15:01.046 --> 00:15:22.476
<v Suraj> Not only because there is a sense that they've been erased in education broadly, but particularly in this moment of climate catastrophe, we're seeing that these communities have really, not in these terms, but have really thought about these issues in ways that all of us would benefit from paying more attention to.

00:15:22.476 --> 00:15:30.846
<v Suraj> But we seem to continue to insist on systematically disadvantaging in the day to day practice of science and advocacy as your papers regard you.

00:15:30.846 --> 00:15:34.729
<v Suraj> So I guess I just said all the things that I was hoping you would say.

00:15:34.846 --> 00:15:38.516
<v Suraj> So maybe you might talk a little bit more about how you feel.

00:15:38.516 --> 00:15:44.986
<v Radha> That's me, it's very interesting to hear you ... I mean I'm really glad that you read that paper and it resonated with you.

00:15:44.986 --> 00:15:47.406
<v Radha> That was very interesting to hear you say it.

00:15:48.766 --> 00:15:51.566
<v Radha> So actually, let's see.

00:15:51.566 --> 00:15:54.226
<v Radha> Let's, yeah, I think maybe take a couple of steps back now.

00:15:55.616 --> 00:16:06.526
<v Radha> The thing is that having come through the formal education system in India and having gone to premier institutions of study and all of that thing.

00:16:07.676 --> 00:16:12.976
<v Radha> One emerges, I mean for me personally, I emerged as a technologist, right?

00:16:13.206 --> 00:16:17.376
<v Radha> And not to, at all, diss that.

00:16:18.086 --> 00:16:24.776
<v Radha> Because that really helped understand, analyze research.

00:16:27.486 --> 00:16:29.206
<v Radha> Build critical thinking.

00:16:29.226 --> 00:16:31.886
<v Radha> All of that happened because of that training, right?

00:16:33.776 --> 00:16:44.296
<v Radha> And also an appreciation of the importance of rationality and all of the things that science education teaches you.

00:16:44.626 --> 00:16:46.826
<v Radha> Studying science for a long period of time teaches you.

00:16:46.826 --> 00:16:48.646
<v Radha> And also doing research teaches you.

00:16:49.376 --> 00:17:14.256
<v Radha> Now what happens when you then, having been a scientist and technologist and actually applied a lot of the things that I studied and worked on during my higher education period and applying it on the field, gives you a sense of the power of science, right?

00:17:14.426 --> 00:17:20.506
<v Radha> And the power of translating scientific principles into technology and applying it.

00:17:20.506 --> 00:17:31.806
<v Radha> In the process, unless you really are examining that very carefully, you forget that science is actually a social endeavor.

00:17:33.346 --> 00:17:36.766
<v Radha> And that science happens in a social ecological context.

00:17:38.206 --> 00:17:40.296
<v Radha> And it is not in isolation.

00:17:40.356 --> 00:17:45.576
<v Radha> Though through schooling as well as through college, I do remember, you're a scientist.

00:17:45.576 --> 00:17:46.326
<v Radha> You are rational.

00:17:46.426 --> 00:17:47.366
<v Radha> You are objective.

00:17:48.066 --> 00:17:50.916
<v Radha> But as a human being and of which I discovered much later, of course.

00:17:51.276 --> 00:17:55.236
<v Radha> As a human being, your first response is an emotional response.

00:17:55.536 --> 00:18:02.926
<v Radha> You then rationalize that emotional response into action which is logical, based on evidence, all of that, right?

00:18:04.516 --> 00:18:18.456
<v Radha> But your first response, and particularly if you're looking at environmental issues or even social issues, it is an emotional response which can then get translated if you're an activist into action of a different kind.

00:18:18.716 --> 00:18:25.566
<v Radha> But when you're a scientist or an economist, it gets translated into a different kind of action.

00:18:26.756 --> 00:18:30.736
<v Radha> So that's one part of it.

00:18:31.846 --> 00:18:46.676
<v Radha> And then when you actually are with communities like I was and this was straight from being a technologist and a consultant into this environment without any intermediate period.

00:18:47.526 --> 00:18:54.356
<v Radha> And then you suddenly realize that it's not about problems and solutions.

00:18:54.796 --> 00:18:55.036
<v Radha> Okay?

00:18:55.426 --> 00:18:58.016
<v Radha> That's a very linear understanding.

00:18:58.556 --> 00:18:59.466
<v Radha> Here's a problem.

00:18:59.506 --> 00:19:02.326
<v Radha> Here's a solution, end of chapter, right?

00:19:02.736 --> 00:19:03.496
<v Radha> Here's a problem.

00:19:03.496 --> 00:19:06.176
<v Radha> Here's a technological ... Okay, so water for instance, right?

00:19:06.456 --> 00:19:07.206
<v Radha> There's a water issue.

00:19:07.416 --> 00:19:11.406
<v Radha> Okay, so how can I ensure that continuous good quality water supply will happen?

00:19:11.726 --> 00:19:19.856
<v Radha> Oh I could either dig the borewell well deeper or I could get a reverse osmosis unit, remove all the hardness water and make it available.

00:19:19.986 --> 00:19:25.056
<v Radha> So I'm thinking really more in terms of as a technologist to solve the problem.

00:19:26.106 --> 00:19:29.876
<v Radha> As opposed to here a situation or a condition.

00:19:31.396 --> 00:19:33.256
<v Radha> What is the response to that?

00:19:33.286 --> 00:19:36.676
<v Radha> And what change in condition is created by the response?

00:19:37.366 --> 00:19:41.386
<v Radha> And then it creates a new condition to which you have another response, right?

00:19:41.776 --> 00:19:42.816
<v Radha> And then it's a process.

00:19:42.816 --> 00:19:43.856
<v Radha> It's a bit of a journey.

00:19:44.756 --> 00:19:47.836
<v Radha> But in this process, technology is part of the solution.

00:19:49.806 --> 00:19:51.646
<v Radha> Technology is not the solution.

00:19:52.796 --> 00:19:58.606
<v Radha> And this I learned through conversations with these communities where you say, "Okay, so you have a water crisis.

00:19:58.606 --> 00:19:59.756
<v Radha> Okay, let's look at this.

00:19:59.756 --> 00:20:00.326
<v Radha> What do we want to do?

00:20:00.416 --> 00:20:01.126
<v Radha> What should we do?

00:20:01.126 --> 00:20:02.106
<v Radha> Et cetera, et cetera.

00:20:02.346 --> 00:20:03.406
<v Radha> What's your source of water?

00:20:03.406 --> 00:20:06.806
<v Radha> Why are you not-" You're asking the questions to solve the problem.

00:20:08.216 --> 00:20:11.106
<v Radha> But then you're also faced with many other issues.

00:20:11.136 --> 00:20:13.906
<v Radha> And we don't have a continuous water supply.

00:20:13.936 --> 00:20:15.886
<v Radha> We don't have piped water in our homes.

00:20:16.226 --> 00:20:22.896
<v Radha> We have had very little rain in the last, whatever, five to seven years.

00:20:26.786 --> 00:20:31.606
<v Radha> We have to petition literally but the panchayat in order to get water.

00:20:32.416 --> 00:20:39.146
<v Radha> Then the larger social policy issues, inequities in society.

00:20:39.156 --> 00:20:40.716
<v Radha> Why is this situation here?

00:20:41.006 --> 00:20:42.686
<v Radha> All that starts coming in.

00:20:43.576 --> 00:20:43.906
<v Radha> Right?

00:20:43.936 --> 00:20:44.966
<v Radha> Unlike in a city.

00:20:45.086 --> 00:20:47.276
<v Radha> The situation in a city is slightly different from this.

00:20:48.466 --> 00:20:52.896
<v Radha> Then you begin to understand that, okay, one needs to understand policy.

00:20:53.416 --> 00:20:56.056
<v Radha> One needs to understand why policies of a certain kind.

00:20:56.296 --> 00:20:58.966
<v Radha> One needs to understand the economics of the situation.

00:20:59.186 --> 00:21:01.406
<v Radha> One needs to understand social discrimination.

00:21:01.406 --> 00:21:02.886
<v Radha> One needs to understand all of this.

00:21:03.876 --> 00:21:09.766
<v Radha> And also, the solution does not ... Or the response does not come from the technologists.

00:21:10.396 --> 00:21:21.636
<v Radha> But it arrived from consulting, from understanding, from realizing that here is an urban community in a rural setting which has 24/7 water.

00:21:22.166 --> 00:21:29.106
<v Radha> And right outside, there are a bunch of pastoralists and small farmers who don't have 24/7 water and why is that?

00:21:30.486 --> 00:21:32.106
<v Radha> So access to resource, right?

00:21:32.326 --> 00:21:40.026
<v Radha> So then all of these realities then start coming into your understanding of an issue.

00:21:41.956 --> 00:21:47.536
<v Radha> And to me, that is when you realize the significance of what is sustainability?

00:21:49.056 --> 00:21:51.888
<v Radha> It's not about sustainable development and arriving at solutions.

00:21:51.888 --> 00:22:03.046
<v Radha> So in that sense, I think, it was ... And so I could take this into the classroom and that was the other benefit.

00:22:03.606 --> 00:22:09.416
<v Radha> Could take this whole experience into the classroom for students of class 11 and 12 to work on projects.

00:22:11.086 --> 00:22:12.100
<v Suraj> Tell us more about that.

00:22:12.276 --> 00:22:12.556
<v Radha> Yeah.

00:22:12.556 --> 00:22:22.206
<v Radha> And that became ... So for instance, as part of the ISC board which is what these students were doing, 11th and 12th, environmental science is an elective.

00:22:23.566 --> 00:22:23.766
<v Radha> Okay.

00:22:23.766 --> 00:22:26.256
<v Radha> So you'll have students, you'll probably have, what?

00:22:26.446 --> 00:22:30.696
<v Radha> Five to eight students who will sign up because you have different electives.

00:22:30.696 --> 00:22:33.866
<v Radha> And the school strength was about 360 students.

00:22:34.046 --> 00:22:37.466
<v Radha> So you have about that many ... It's a small school.

00:22:38.156 --> 00:22:42.816
<v Radha> So when they have that as part of their curriculum, they have to do a project, right?

00:22:43.356 --> 00:22:47.726
<v Radha> And so then with the first batch, I decided okay, it was just four girls.

00:22:48.136 --> 00:22:49.096
<v Radha> So then I said okay, you know what?

00:22:49.096 --> 00:22:50.856
<v Radha> We are going out into the village.

00:22:50.926 --> 00:22:52.016
<v Radha> We're going to go for a walk.

00:22:52.516 --> 00:22:53.556
<v Radha> And you'll decide.

00:22:53.616 --> 00:23:05.326
<v Radha> Each of you have to pick one topic, based on what you see, that you think is something you want to explore or you are really surprised by it.

00:23:05.406 --> 00:23:09.816
<v Radha> Or it disturbs you or whatever, right?

00:23:10.086 --> 00:23:11.076
<v Radha> So then they did that.

00:23:11.486 --> 00:23:16.566
<v Radha> One wanted to work with the shepherd's goatherds to understand what is that livelihood?

00:23:16.576 --> 00:23:18.406
<v Radha> What are the resources it depends on?

00:23:18.406 --> 00:23:20.086
<v Radha> What does a day in their life look like?

00:23:20.086 --> 00:23:21.066
<v Radha> What are the challenges?

00:23:21.986 --> 00:23:22.486
<v Radha> All of that.

00:23:22.486 --> 00:23:23.746
<v Radha> All of those aspects.

00:23:24.216 --> 00:23:27.216
<v Radha> And then another one wanted to look at water challenges in the village.

00:23:27.236 --> 00:23:29.276
<v Radha> Another one, energy challenges in the village.

00:23:29.486 --> 00:23:39.496
<v Radha> So we got four different projects because they were surprised at ... So do all of them have electricity at home?

00:23:40.486 --> 00:23:41.686
<v Radha> And if not, why not?

00:23:42.166 --> 00:23:45.256
<v Radha> And some homes have small solar panels and how did come about?

00:23:45.796 --> 00:23:47.636
<v Radha> So all of those kinds of questions.

00:23:48.426 --> 00:23:48.903
<v Suraj> Good questions.

00:23:48.903 --> 00:23:52.396
<v Radha> Very good questions, yes, and because you're just walking.

00:23:52.936 --> 00:23:55.496
<v Radha> And the thing was just walk.

00:23:55.656 --> 00:23:56.286
<v Radha> Let's walk.

00:23:56.336 --> 00:23:57.156
<v Radha> Let's observe.

00:23:57.576 --> 00:23:58.906
<v Radha> Let's see what we make of it.

00:23:59.096 --> 00:24:00.806
<v Radha> Let's reflect on it when we come back.

00:24:01.536 --> 00:24:05.636
<v Radha> We'll probably sit under a tamarind tree and then reflect on it and then see what comes out of it.

00:24:06.086 --> 00:24:07.636
<v Radha> And then interviews with community.

00:24:07.976 --> 00:24:11.596
<v Radha> So that's how the project started developing for each batch of students.

00:24:12.196 --> 00:24:20.316
<v Radha> And then there are questions that young people ask, because they come from a certain background, right?

00:24:20.316 --> 00:24:24.226
<v Radha> From a certain social context and social economic context.

00:24:25.186 --> 00:24:33.576
<v Radha> So simple questions like so you don't have a tap in your house, why is that?

00:24:33.716 --> 00:24:35.726
<v Radha> And then those kind of real questions.

00:24:35.786 --> 00:24:38.316
<v Radha> And is this your own home?

00:24:38.826 --> 00:24:39.966
<v Radha> How did you build this house?

00:24:40.236 --> 00:24:46.286
<v Radha> So how do you have land but you have to still do labor in order to earn your living?

00:24:47.326 --> 00:24:48.986
<v Radha> So those kinds of questions.

00:24:48.986 --> 00:24:53.946
<v Radha> And why isn't enough for you if you are a farmer?

00:24:54.286 --> 00:24:57.276
<v Radha> Why do you need to hold multiple livelihoods?

00:24:58.706 --> 00:24:59.286
<v Radha> Right?

00:24:59.316 --> 00:25:02.426
<v Radha> So why isn't it just enough to have one job?

00:25:02.746 --> 00:25:03.806
<v Radha> But this is not a job.

00:25:03.826 --> 00:25:06.596
<v Radha> And then we started differentiating between job and livelihoods.

00:25:06.596 --> 00:25:11.006
<v Radha> And a certain richness, I think, for those children.

00:25:11.016 --> 00:25:11.376
<v Suraj> Yeah.

00:25:11.776 --> 00:25:15.146
<v Radha> Because they came back and they were like we'll never forget those things.

00:25:15.146 --> 00:25:16.211
<v Radha> I mean it's really informed.

00:25:16.526 --> 00:25:19.026
<v Radha> And it's informed what they've done with their lives, yeah.

00:25:20.116 --> 00:25:26.246
<v Suraj> And then you have this science that comes really contextualized socially, it's often historicized.

00:25:26.346 --> 00:25:30.216
<v Radha> Exactly, exactly.

00:25:31.926 --> 00:25:32.043
<v Suraj> Which then [inaudible]

00:25:32.043 --> 00:25:32.079
<v Radha> exactly.

00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:32.416
<v Radha> And there's the process of science, right?

00:25:32.886 --> 00:25:34.916
<v Radha> That there is a history of science.

00:25:34.916 --> 00:25:36.086
<v Radha> I mean this is how it evolved.

00:25:36.086 --> 00:25:37.266
<v Radha> I mean there is a process.

00:25:37.716 --> 00:25:39.426
<v Radha> Because you are observing.

00:25:39.916 --> 00:25:42.926
<v Radha> You have become aware of the situation around you.

00:25:43.286 --> 00:25:48.526
<v Radha> You have recorded either through interviews or visually.

00:25:48.686 --> 00:25:51.466
<v Radha> So you have evidence of what is the situation around you?

00:25:52.126 --> 00:25:54.736
<v Radha> And then it hones those skills as well.

00:25:55.096 --> 00:25:58.506
<v Radha> And then documentation and then analysis of the documentation.

00:25:58.556 --> 00:26:07.030
<v Radha> Inferring from your ... So the process of science and the practice of science can be very much embedded in projects like this as well.

00:26:07.030 --> 00:26:13.016
<v Radha> And at the same time, you suddenly realize, so I remember one of my students saying, "this is economics, no?

00:26:13.016 --> 00:26:14.986
<v Radha> I mean it's not environmental science."

00:26:14.996 --> 00:26:16.956
<v Radha> So we're like, "Okay, why is that?

00:26:16.956 --> 00:26:18.426
<v Radha> Let's talk about that a little bit."

00:26:19.906 --> 00:26:20.896
<v Radha> And then you begin to…

00:26:20.896 --> 00:26:21.431
<v Suraj> oh I love that.

00:26:21.606 --> 00:26:30.031
<v Radha> Yeah, and then you begin to see these boundaries dissolving and it's wonderful to be with young people who are discovering that.

00:26:30.276 --> 00:26:35.566
<v Radha> It comes to them because rather than you saying oh this is the discipline of this…

00:26:35.816 --> 00:26:37.536
<v Suraj> yeah, yeah.

00:26:37.646 --> 00:26:41.811
<v Suraj> Yeah, I think it's quite fascinating also to think about.

00:26:41.976 --> 00:26:45.126
<v Suraj> The last interview I sat with was with Chayanika Shah.

00:26:45.216 --> 00:26:46.186
<v Suraj> I don't know if you-

00:26:46.266 --> 00:26:46.676
<v Radha> oh Chayanika, of course.

00:26:46.876 --> 00:26:48.016
<v Radha> She was in IIT Bombay.

00:26:48.016 --> 00:26:49.966
<v Radha> Yeah, yeah, she has experience, yes.

00:26:50.196 --> 00:26:55.236
<v Suraj> Yeah, we had sat with her to talk about LGBTQ+ justice and feminism.

00:26:55.236 --> 00:27:03.096
<v Suraj> And it was quite interesting because that same kind of perspective on science in the social world that you're kind of sharing.

00:27:03.096 --> 00:27:07.756
<v Suraj> But came through it from this feminist, feminist point theory of science.

00:27:08.016 --> 00:27:11.746
<v Suraj> And then here we see it through this context of sustainability and climate change.

00:27:11.746 --> 00:27:18.326
<v Suraj> So it's really interesting how when you try and bring these things to bear on solving persistent problems, you necessarily, not matter the questions.

00:27:18.326 --> 00:27:18.506
<v Radha> Absolutely, yeah.

00:27:19.916 --> 00:27:23.526
<v Suraj> So this seems like a good place to clarify a little bit about our terminology.

00:27:23.566 --> 00:27:33.616
<v Suraj> So in that article, you make this distinction or try to unmake this distinction between sustainability and sustainable development.

00:27:33.626 --> 00:27:45.726
<v Suraj> So it would be helpful to think like this kind of work you're doing, do you like to talk about it as sustainability education or environmental education, science education broadly, climate education, something else.

00:27:46.186 --> 00:27:49.236
<v Suraj> What kinds of words do you like to use to describe these projects?

00:27:51.556 --> 00:27:56.966
<v Radha> I just use the word education because I have so much difficulty in slotting them.

00:27:56.976 --> 00:27:59.096
<v Radha> I mean it's a bit of a quandary for me.

00:27:59.276 --> 00:28:04.416
<v Radha> So I just think that, okay so I'm going to give you a bit of an anecdote.

00:28:04.416 --> 00:28:04.452
<v Suraj> You do, I love that.

00:28:04.456 --> 00:28:11.656
<v Radha> So there was this conversation, yes, it was this conversation I was having with a very dear friend who's now in the U.S.

00:28:12.256 --> 00:28:17.086
<v Radha> But he was, at that time, a senior professor at the university.

00:28:17.086 --> 00:28:22.826
<v Radha> And we were talking about sustainability and a Masters in Development or whatever, whatever.

00:28:23.476 --> 00:28:30.753
<v Radha> And so I said, "Why do you have to have a specialization in sustainability and a Masters in Development program?"

00:28:31.996 --> 00:28:32.941
<v Radha> "Well, what do we do?"

00:28:32.996 --> 00:28:33.546
<v Radha> I said, "No.

00:28:35.526 --> 00:28:40.576
<v Radha> I guess one should plan it as you have a Masters program and whatever, Development.

00:28:41.536 --> 00:28:44.156
<v Radha> You might start with a specialization in sustainability.

00:28:45.546 --> 00:28:56.216
<v Radha> But your plan should be that five years down the line, whatever Masters in Development you're doing, sustainability has to be embedded in it."

00:28:56.236 --> 00:28:59.746
<v Radha> So you don't have to have it as a specialization and a Masters in Development.

00:29:01.116 --> 00:29:08.276
<v Radha> All discourse, conversation, understanding of development has to stem from sustainability.

00:29:09.196 --> 00:29:11.946
<v Radha> So in a sense you have to dissolve it into that.

00:29:12.336 --> 00:29:12.546
<v Radha> Right?

00:29:12.546 --> 00:29:22.236
<v Radha> So then I'm not saying that oh this is a Masters in Development with specialization in public policy, with specialization in sustainability, with specialization in x, y, z.

00:29:22.236 --> 00:29:28.906
<v Radha> So I mean this was something that I just, I couldn't get my head around.

00:29:28.906 --> 00:29:31.076
<v Radha> And I was like so why are we doing this?

00:29:31.196 --> 00:29:34.376
<v Radha> So he laughed and said, "That's not happening.

00:29:34.376 --> 00:29:36.336
<v Radha> So we have to do this."

00:29:38.206 --> 00:29:45.811
<v Radha> but the thing is that it's about what education should be, right?

00:29:46.086 --> 00:29:47.536
<v Radha> I mean it should be about.

00:29:47.806 --> 00:30:00.220
<v Radha> So I wanted to just add one point to the previous thoughts that we were talking about where you talking about Chayanika’s LGBTQ situation and this whole thing that we were talking about.

00:30:00.220 --> 00:30:05.676
<v Radha> Another element that actually emerged very strongly with these students was the element of caste.

00:30:07.166 --> 00:30:07.781
<v Suraj> Tell us about that.

00:30:07.781 --> 00:30:17.606
<v Radha> Because you have in the communities around there, both at the school and also in other work that I have done in other states like Andhra Pradesh and Telangana.

00:30:17.606 --> 00:30:20.696
<v Radha> Caste, of course, is deeply embedded in our system.

00:30:20.696 --> 00:30:25.456
<v Radha> I mean a lot of people in urban areas think there is no caste in urban areas which is not true.

00:30:26.096 --> 00:30:28.796
<v Radha> But in rural areas, it's much more in your face, right?

00:30:28.796 --> 00:30:33.846
<v Radha> Because you even have villages which are called Dalit Wada which are outside the main village?

00:30:33.846 --> 00:30:33.976
<v Radha> Right?

00:30:34.006 --> 00:30:37.586
<v Radha> Even today you have it in Andhra Pradesh and Telangana and many other places in the country.

00:30:38.086 --> 00:30:49.266
<v Radha> So now when you are sitting with a group of people who are part of one village.

00:30:49.296 --> 00:30:53.946
<v Radha> And then you're talking there and then you move to the other one and then they ask you, "Oh where did you come from?"

00:30:53.946 --> 00:30:54.860
<v Radha> And then you tell them you were there.

00:30:54.896 --> 00:30:57.086
<v Radha> They said that was a Dalit village.

00:30:57.446 --> 00:31:01.846
<v Radha> So then the questions the students ask why do they have to mention that, right?

00:31:02.366 --> 00:31:09.006
<v Radha> So then we started talking about how even today, a person of another caste will not eat from a Dalit home.

00:31:09.396 --> 00:31:13.486
<v Radha> So then we went back to some of the Dalit households and we started talking about it.

00:31:13.676 --> 00:31:14.836
<v Radha> And they said, "Yes, that is true.

00:31:15.366 --> 00:31:16.516
<v Radha> They won't eat in our homes."

00:31:17.246 --> 00:31:21.986
<v Radha> and of course now, there was one person who said this.

00:31:21.996 --> 00:31:25.966
<v Radha> He said, "There are two places where caste gets dissolved."

00:31:26.026 --> 00:31:26.446
<v Radha> I said, "Where?"

00:31:26.446 --> 00:31:29.216
<v Radha> He said, "When we go and deliver milk.

00:31:29.766 --> 00:31:32.436
<v Radha> So these milk collection centers."

00:31:32.436 --> 00:31:37.616
<v Radha> He said, "Nobody cares if it's a Dalit family's cow or a buffalo.

00:31:39.186 --> 00:31:43.996
<v Radha> It's all going into the same larger pool which then gets pasteurized or whatever."

00:31:44.356 --> 00:31:46.191
<v Radha> he said, "But it's coming from my house, right?

00:31:46.336 --> 00:31:47.886
<v Radha> And I'm Dalit."

00:31:47.936 --> 00:31:49.256
<v Radha> He said, "That is one place."

00:31:49.346 --> 00:32:07.216
<v Radha> And he said, "And the other place is when we have to put our-" He said, "Earlier, when he was younger-" He said, "We didn't even have access to water first because you can't go to the same place where everybody's going."

00:32:07.796 --> 00:32:15.456
<v Radha> but he said, "Today, whether you're Dalit or whether you're not Dalit, you have to stand in that queue to fill your pot from the tanker."

00:32:17.126 --> 00:32:19.236
<v Radha> He said, "That's a bit of a levelizer."

00:32:20.506 --> 00:32:24.856
<v Radha> I mean the point is if it's about this idea of resource.

00:32:24.956 --> 00:32:28.446
<v Radha> And who owns resource and on what basis do they resource?

00:32:29.206 --> 00:32:32.206
<v Radha> Whether it's land or whether it is access to water or anything, right?

00:32:33.606 --> 00:32:35.246
<v Radha> I mean access to any resource.

00:32:36.116 --> 00:32:54.076
<v Radha> So I think the close, the very tight link between access to resource for survival and caste and class in India.

00:32:54.956 --> 00:33:02.316
<v Radha> I think those things became very evident for many of the students who were working on these projects that it's so deeply embedded.

00:33:02.346 --> 00:33:03.966
<v Radha> And even something like eating.

00:33:05.346 --> 00:33:06.916
<v Radha> You can't.

00:33:06.966 --> 00:33:13.224
<v Radha> And then, of course, we then moved on to diet and what kind of food and how are they different and why are they different and all of that sort of thing.

00:33:13.224 --> 00:33:13.746
<v Radha> But yeah.

00:33:14.016 --> 00:33:14.666
<v Radha> So caste.

00:33:15.076 --> 00:33:16.506
<v Radha> And I think that so yeah.

00:33:16.846 --> 00:33:29.306
<v Suraj> I'm glad that you brought our attention to caste because I think these questions, of course, necessarily have this ... If you're to contextualize science socially without this lens towards disparate impact, you've missed something.

00:33:29.306 --> 00:33:39.670
<v Suraj> And I think it, you know you've pointed out that, of course, the gap between those who are the cause of ... I don't want to cause.

00:33:39.670 --> 00:33:43.206
<v Radha> Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah.

00:33:43.206 --> 00:33:47.746
<v Suraj> The cause of these emissions and the people who are most affected by these changes is quite a large gap.

00:33:48.816 --> 00:33:48.906
<v Radha> Absolutely.

00:33:48.906 --> 00:33:54.766
<v Suraj> And arguably part of why action has not been taken at the scope that is arguably necessary.

00:33:55.136 --> 00:33:56.791
<v Radha> Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

00:33:57.296 --> 00:34:06.946
<v Suraj> So please feel free to keep raising some of those issues around caste and equity as we continue our conversation because I think it's really fundamental to what it means to contextualize science education.

00:34:07.916 --> 00:34:15.023
<v Suraj> So I'm trying to think where I want to go from here because I have many options ahead of me.

00:34:15.236 --> 00:34:24.016
<v Suraj> I think, so we did talk a little bit, that question was around what we call this environmental education, sustainability education.

00:34:24.036 --> 00:34:25.406
<v Radha> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:26.166 --> 00:34:31.946
<v Suraj> And so your background is in science and then now you're in development, programs.

00:34:31.956 --> 00:34:33.816
<v Suraj> But so much of your work is in education.

00:34:33.816 --> 00:34:45.696
<v Suraj> So it might be helpful to just hear for a little bit about what field or research community you tend to write towards or if there's theories, thinkers, schools of thought that really influence your thinking as you decide.

00:34:45.716 --> 00:34:47.466
<v Radha> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:47.466 --> 00:34:53.326
<v Radha> When I saw that question, I was thinking huh I really ... So there are two things that I'd like to say here.

00:34:53.506 --> 00:34:57.336
<v Radha> One is that in terms of thinkers, et cetera.

00:34:57.716 --> 00:35:06.436
<v Radha> So one, I think a very profound ... So before that, of course, before I really came formally into education.

00:35:07.156 --> 00:35:26.246
<v Radha> I mean after I came in formally into education through the school et cetera, Paulo Freire, I read him as soon as I ... So that really left a very deep impact on my understanding of how does science work in this milieu, right?

00:35:26.916 --> 00:35:29.036
<v Radha> And how do you actually get it to work in this milieu.

00:35:29.466 --> 00:35:30.866
<v Radha> So Freire is one.

00:35:30.876 --> 00:35:46.656
<v Radha> But then from when I think about my understanding and my now over zealous emphasis with students on a systems view of life, that really comes from Fritjof Capra's book, Systems View of Life.

00:35:47.286 --> 00:35:54.136
<v Radha> And the course that he taught which I actually took which is about a 12 week course called the Systems View of Life.

00:35:54.176 --> 00:36:01.516
<v Radha> And that really allowed me to actually formalize in my head the framework.

00:36:02.616 --> 00:36:10.616
<v Radha> I did struggle a little bit with this idea of how do you actually, what is the kind of framework that you could teach with?

00:36:12.156 --> 00:36:18.996
<v Radha> So I used to keep them looking at it as we need to look at the world around us almost like a spider web, right?

00:36:19.196 --> 00:36:23.092
<v Radha> So we're just woven together in just this web as opposed to a linear thing, right?

00:36:23.216 --> 00:36:28.786
<v Radha> I mean that idea was very much a part of my understanding.

00:36:28.786 --> 00:36:33.216
<v Radha> But how do you articulate it into a formal framework of education, right?

00:36:33.486 --> 00:36:59.326
<v Radha> And so the systems view of life and the nested systems approach where you're looking at the individual and education, or the practice of the individual being embedded really in the social and political system, economic system, which is then embedded in ecological system and then the larger Earth system and the Earth system processes.

00:36:59.826 --> 00:37:08.576
<v Radha> So that is one thing, I think, which has really informed my subsequent articulations and understanding.

00:37:08.576 --> 00:37:13.276
<v Suraj> And maybe here briefly you can, I mean you've just did this, but maybe you can just [inaudible] too.

00:37:13.886 --> 00:37:19.444
<v Suraj> You can tell it what is systems view of life and how that is different from a more [inaudible]

00:37:19.444 --> 00:37:20.355
<v Suraj> ?
<v Radha> Right, right.

00:37:20.355 --> 00:37:34.326
<v Radha> So what has happened is that, of course, ever since the 70s, I think, at ... I mean there's a fundamental difference between environmental movements in the west and in India, right?

00:37:34.546 --> 00:37:45.486
<v Radha> I mean in India and also in many countries in Africa, the environmental movement actually emerged as a threat to livelihoods and to very existence in that sense, right?

00:37:45.856 --> 00:37:49.826
<v Radha> So it actually emerged from a struggle for livelihoods and resources at that level.

00:37:49.826 --> 00:37:51.456
<v Radha> And that's how the movements began.

00:37:51.456 --> 00:37:55.536
<v Radha> So they were social movements and ecological movements were very closely tied.

00:37:56.066 --> 00:37:59.956
<v Radha> In the west, the environmental movement had a very strong ecological focus.

00:38:00.036 --> 00:38:06.976
<v Radha> And it was about wilderness and separation of the humans from the pristine wilderness and all of that.

00:38:06.976 --> 00:38:08.986
<v Radha> Like John Mears writings and you know all of that.

00:38:08.986 --> 00:38:11.576
<v Radha> So there is a very distinct difference.

00:38:11.866 --> 00:38:27.846
<v Radha> Now that understanding of what do ecological movements and what do environmental movements and, therefore, environmental education, that there is a social, ecological context to that from an Indian perspective.

00:38:29.206 --> 00:38:31.226
<v Radha> So that is one level, right?

00:38:31.516 --> 00:38:42.376
<v Radha> Now implicit in that is an understanding that you don't look at the environment as air, water, soil.

00:38:42.436 --> 00:38:44.066
<v Radha> You don't look at it like that, right?

00:38:45.086 --> 00:38:56.876
<v Radha> Now in the early days of the movement and also in India, scientists were looking at it as air quality, water quality, solid waste, cleaning.

00:38:56.886 --> 00:39:00.046
<v Radha> Like for example, the superfunds in the U.S.

00:39:00.416 --> 00:39:05.516
<v Radha> which were used to clean up waste dumps where toxic waste were dumped, et cetera.

00:39:05.896 --> 00:39:22.256
<v Radha> So until you understood the environment as a multimedia, integrated of an entity, we always approached it as these individual pieces that need be dealt with, right?

00:39:22.706 --> 00:39:28.246
<v Radha> And then of course, you discover that hey I cleaned this and I'm actually producing something else somewhere else [inaudible] you look at it.

00:39:29.206 --> 00:39:31.646
<v Radha> And so that was the kind of approach.

00:39:31.646 --> 00:39:42.176
<v Radha> And then slowly from there people began to realize that okay, we need to really take a more integrated and the word holistic started coming into our vocabulary, right?

00:39:43.176 --> 00:39:57.756
<v Radha> Now all of that moved on, but there wasn't any clear articulation of what one could think of as it was very hard to think.

00:39:58.106 --> 00:40:04.466
<v Radha> There wasn't a concrete framework through which one could actually look at something and say, "How do I really understand it?

00:40:04.506 --> 00:40:08.596
<v Radha> What does it really mean when I say if I clean air, it becomes water.

00:40:08.596 --> 00:40:12.146
<v Radha> And then after dealing with that, what does all of this actually mean and how do you?"

00:40:12.146 --> 00:40:12.976
<v Suraj> yeah, it's overwhelming.

00:40:12.976 --> 00:40:14.296
<v Suraj> It's either just [inaudible] or everything.

00:40:14.296 --> 00:40:14.396
<v Suraj> How to scope out [inaudible]

00:40:14.396 --> 00:40:14.416
<v Suraj> ?
<v Radha> Exactly.

00:40:14.436 --> 00:40:22.446
<v Radha> Yes, and also to escape from [inaudible] but everything is connected.

00:40:22.726 --> 00:40:25.693
<v Radha> Well, yeah, it is, but I mean really how you know.

00:40:25.916 --> 00:40:27.886
<v Radha> If you just say that, how the hell where do you approach?

00:40:28.256 --> 00:40:28.991
<v Radha> Where do you start, right?

00:40:29.386 --> 00:40:29.786
<v Suraj> Right.

00:40:29.916 --> 00:40:32.895
<v Radha> But then we had all these other frameworks.

00:40:34.165 --> 00:40:39.075
<v Radha> The planetary boundary framework, the doughnut framework when people really began to realize that okay, we're pushing really hard.

00:40:39.085 --> 00:40:40.635
<v Radha> Climate change is a reality.

00:40:41.285 --> 00:40:43.685
<v Radha> So then you looked at Earth processes.

00:40:43.685 --> 00:40:47.115
<v Radha> And this comes from Earth scientists and chemists actually.

00:40:48.285 --> 00:40:53.175
<v Radha> Like the idea of bio geochemical cycles, the carbon cycle, nitrogen cycle, water cycle.

00:40:53.175 --> 00:40:58.355
<v Radha> And then you have the cyclic approach, which also has a very strong ecological focus to it.

00:40:59.025 --> 00:41:15.365
<v Radha> So then the Stockholm Environmental Institute and chemists and geo chemists came out with the planetary boundary framework which basically said there are these nine Earth processes and we have to function within a safe limit for each of these processes.

00:41:15.365 --> 00:41:16.502
<v Radha> And we are already breaching several of these boundaries.

00:41:16.502 --> 00:41:35.435
<v Radha> But even that didn't really bring the social, ecological connections because a lot of people found frameworks like that very dense and having a tough time.

00:41:35.435 --> 00:41:37.135
<v Radha> How do people arrive at these estimates?

00:41:37.145 --> 00:41:43.045
<v Radha> It just was not tangible for them to really understand what is this thing, right?

00:41:44.615 --> 00:41:51.115
<v Radha> But going back, if you take your understanding of what a system is, right?

00:41:52.805 --> 00:41:59.205
<v Radha> Where you have these relationships, something comes in and then causes change.

00:41:59.255 --> 00:42:14.165
<v Radha> And there are these multiple parts which are related, which have relationships, which when they are together in a certain relationship, function in a way that is distinct from each part functioning, right?

00:42:14.985 --> 00:42:18.555
<v Radha> So then that whole thing about the whole is much greater than the sum of its parts.

00:42:22.515 --> 00:42:25.145
<v Radha> And then you look at a natural ecosystem.

00:42:25.165 --> 00:42:28.355
<v Radha> I'm just saying natural, but really you look at the ecosystem around you, right?

00:42:29.185 --> 00:42:38.005
<v Radha> If you look at that, you begin to see that there are so many intricate connections, dependencies, inter dependencies.

00:42:39.615 --> 00:42:45.315
<v Radha> What one may look at as predator prey relationship , but actually there is a dependency there.

00:42:46.115 --> 00:42:48.885
<v Radha> There are different kinds of associations and relationships.

00:42:49.495 --> 00:42:55.850
<v Radha> And it's not just between living system and living creatures, but also with what we call nonliving, right?

00:42:56.495 --> 00:43:03.385
<v Radha> For instance, is soil living or nonliving?

00:43:03.385 --> 00:43:03.399
<v Radha> Difficult to say, right?

00:43:03.399 --> 00:43:03.407
<v Suraj> Is what?

00:43:03.407 --> 00:43:03.410
<v Suraj> Soil?

00:43:03.410 --> 00:43:03.414
<v Radha> Soil.

00:43:03.414 --> 00:43:03.725
<v Radha> Is soil living or nonliving?

00:43:03.735 --> 00:43:06.025
<v Radha> Difficult to say because there is life in it.

00:43:06.735 --> 00:43:07.690
<v Suraj> I thought you said oil.

00:43:07.690 --> 00:43:08.295
<v Suraj> And that was a very different [inaudible] but actually the same question-

00:43:09.465 --> 00:43:10.575
<v Radha> well that's true.

00:43:11.735 --> 00:43:13.125
<v Radha> After all, oil - it's fossils, right?

00:43:14.305 --> 00:43:19.145
<v Radha> So then now how do you really then understand it a little better?

00:43:19.615 --> 00:43:31.015
<v Radha> So if you were to take this ecosystem understanding and place it in the context of the planet, and place it in a socio ecological, like we said in the beginning, science is a social endeavor.

00:43:31.475 --> 00:43:34.275
<v Radha> And we are creatures of social ecological systems.

00:43:34.275 --> 00:43:40.645
<v Radha> We are not separate from, I mean it's so hard to really even think of separating the two, right?

00:43:41.085 --> 00:43:43.125
<v Radha> But we do it for our convenience, right?

00:43:43.125 --> 00:43:43.445
<v Suraj> Yeah.

00:43:43.995 --> 00:43:51.735
<v Radha> So then how do you understand this overwhelming, range of these relationships and where do I begin?

00:43:51.745 --> 00:43:52.765
<v Radha> And it's all fine.

00:43:53.415 --> 00:43:57.265
<v Radha> So then I liked this systems view framework.

00:43:57.265 --> 00:44:09.435
<v Radha> It appealed to me because it allowed me to actually have a schematic to show that here is, if you have a nested system, so that means one inside the other.

00:44:09.705 --> 00:44:11.915
<v Radha> A bit like the Russian matryoshka dolls.

00:44:12.045 --> 00:44:13.415
<v Radha> You open one and there's another one.

00:44:13.415 --> 00:44:15.605
<v Radha> You open one, there's ... So literally that, right?

00:44:15.605 --> 00:44:24.295
<v Radha> I mean the individual or the household is embedded in the larger system which is not independent.

00:44:24.395 --> 00:44:27.725
<v Radha> Which is also dependent ultimately on Earth processes.

00:44:27.975 --> 00:44:35.225
<v Radha> But the ecological, social, economic, political, ecological connection, how do you show that?

00:44:36.295 --> 00:44:44.465
<v Radha> But if you were to show it as this one inside the other inside the other inside the other, then you suddenly see oh yeah, that's true.

00:44:44.845 --> 00:44:46.195
<v Radha> There is all these relationships.

00:44:46.635 --> 00:44:56.495
<v Radha> So let me move forward with an understanding that the political system is a creation of the social system.

00:44:58.075 --> 00:44:59.435
<v Radha> As is the economic system.

00:44:59.435 --> 00:45:02.565
<v Radha> Those are constructs of human beings, right?

00:45:02.945 --> 00:45:10.445
<v Radha> But the ecological system and the Earth system are realities of a very different kind.

00:45:10.795 --> 00:45:11.985
<v Radha> They are not your constructs.

00:45:11.985 --> 00:45:14.295
<v Radha> They are not constructs of the human mind.

00:45:15.855 --> 00:45:16.795
<v Radha> They are a given.

00:45:17.275 --> 00:45:19.035
<v Radha> There are natural laws that govern it.

00:45:19.745 --> 00:45:21.495
<v Radha> But I can change the political system.

00:45:22.465 --> 00:45:24.065
<v Radha> It's like what Harari says.

00:45:24.355 --> 00:45:30.845
<v Radha> But you all know Harari and Fritjof Capra, I think my understanding of life is kind of sorted.

00:45:31.315 --> 00:45:38.025
<v Radha> But I mean it's saying that there is something that's reality.

00:45:38.565 --> 00:45:46.695
<v Radha> And then there is other things that are human constructs which somehow we have begun to believe is also a law of nature.

00:45:46.745 --> 00:45:47.155
<v Radha> It's not.

00:45:49.815 --> 00:45:55.835
<v Radha> So that clarity emerged from this understanding of a systems.

00:45:55.975 --> 00:46:10.115
<v Radha> Meaning you look at life like an ecosystem, but a natural ecosystem, when you look at ecosystems, you're looking at it as creatures other than the human.

00:46:10.695 --> 00:46:20.615
<v Radha> But if you were to look at human and the non human environment around you as one unit, how do you look at it?

00:46:20.885 --> 00:46:32.625
<v Radha> Because if you were to take that same understanding of an ecosystem, prey predator relationships, neutralism, symbiosis, parasitism, all that exists in human society.

00:46:32.625 --> 00:46:37.975
<v Radha> So can we understand that and then understand our social system, our political system.

00:46:38.615 --> 00:46:43.265
<v Radha> Then what happens is when you really get to it, you look at your food system, okay?

00:46:44.295 --> 00:46:47.285
<v Radha> I'm really veering off so you'll have to indulge me a little bit here.

00:46:48.465 --> 00:46:57.685
<v Radha> So it's like, for instance, with the grade eight students in Rishi Valley and with the grade eight students of the government school nearby, we did a project called Where Does My Food Come From?

00:46:58.595 --> 00:46:59.875
<v Radha> Simple question, right?

00:47:00.105 --> 00:47:04.695
<v Radha> But when the kids started exploring, they were like oh my God.

00:47:04.695 --> 00:47:05.675
<v Radha> This is so complex.

00:47:05.675 --> 00:47:08.795
<v Radha> Because we wrote down a menu.

00:47:08.855 --> 00:47:11.025
<v Radha> We listed the food that we eat every day.

00:47:11.295 --> 00:47:12.555
<v Radha> And then we said let's break it down.

00:47:12.585 --> 00:47:13.545
<v Radha> Let's get the recipes.

00:47:13.555 --> 00:47:14.695
<v Radha> Let's look at the ingredients.

00:47:14.725 --> 00:47:16.675
<v Radha> Let's find out where the ingredients come from.

00:47:17.195 --> 00:47:18.045
<v Radha> Who grows them?

00:47:18.045 --> 00:47:18.815
<v Radha> Where do they grow?

00:47:18.815 --> 00:47:20.615
<v Radha> Under what conditions do they grow?

00:47:21.025 --> 00:47:22.705
<v Radha> What is needed to grow them?

00:47:22.735 --> 00:47:24.345
<v Radha> What kind of weather do they need?

00:47:24.375 --> 00:47:25.645
<v Radha> What are seasonal foods?

00:47:26.195 --> 00:47:36.635
<v Radha> And then you suddenly discover that and says Gosh, like why do we have chocolate and mozzarella cheese from Bangalore for this urban set of kids?

00:47:37.065 --> 00:47:46.175
<v Radha> And then you shared your information with the rural kids and then you suddenly realized that their footprint is actually only up to the 25 kilometer away town.

00:47:46.535 --> 00:47:51.895
<v Radha> And mine is like all the way to Bangalore or the dark chocolate which comes from I don't know where, right?

00:47:52.765 --> 00:47:53.075
<v Suraj> Yeah.

00:47:53.445 --> 00:47:53.845
<v Radha> Okay.

00:47:54.075 --> 00:47:57.945
<v Radha> So then you suddenly begin to think that oh this is exhausting.

00:47:58.705 --> 00:48:04.295
<v Radha> And so to be more sustainable and if I want to keep a smaller footprint, I should be local, eat local vegetables.

00:48:04.825 --> 00:48:06.355
<v Radha> But oh that is so boring.

00:48:06.365 --> 00:48:08.885
<v Radha> It's only gourds and tomatoes.

00:48:08.885 --> 00:48:11.035
<v Radha> So that is some realities.

00:48:11.075 --> 00:48:13.965
<v Radha> But then we started understanding the idea of trade off.

00:48:17.435 --> 00:48:27.925
<v Radha> And for young children who are about, say, 13, 14, the idea of trade off is a very interesting one because they think it's a compromise and not a great thing.

00:48:27.925 --> 00:48:33.875
<v Radha> But then you begin to then talk about other issues in life and you say actually, everything you do in life is a trade off.

00:48:33.875 --> 00:48:35.545
<v Radha> And it's a good thing.

00:48:36.025 --> 00:48:37.395
<v Radha> There are no definitives.

00:48:37.985 --> 00:48:38.955
<v Radha> It's not black and white.

00:48:38.955 --> 00:48:44.965
<v Radha> Everything is you weigh pros and cons and you pick the one with the least cons, right?

00:48:45.495 --> 00:48:46.735
<v Radha> And so then that's a trade off.

00:48:47.135 --> 00:48:55.785
<v Radha> So when we studied this, we suddenly realized all these relationships of the farmer, the conditions under which the farmer is growing it.

00:48:56.015 --> 00:48:58.100
<v Radha> And then you had farmers right outside this whole campus.

00:48:58.205 --> 00:49:02.685
<v Radha> So you actually could go and see how do they grow the paddy or how do they grow the millets.

00:49:02.845 --> 00:49:04.215
<v Radha> Why should we eat more millets?

00:49:04.755 --> 00:49:08.515
<v Radha> Because they're grown around you and they're more water conserving.

00:49:09.045 --> 00:49:12.355
<v Radha> So then the school menu changed and the kids began eating differently.

00:49:12.715 --> 00:49:15.648
<v Radha> So that is the systems view of life.

00:49:15.648 --> 00:49:18.910
<v Radha> When you begin to connect, make the connections, yeah, yeah.

00:49:18.910 --> 00:49:21.715
<v Suraj> That's a very illuminating example.

00:49:21.725 --> 00:49:22.815
<v Radha> Long story short.

00:49:23.695 --> 00:49:24.935
<v Suraj> No that's very useful.

00:49:24.945 --> 00:49:28.505
<v Suraj> Have you written anywhere about that, the food project?

00:49:28.635 --> 00:49:30.095
<v Radha> Yes, I have written.

00:49:30.125 --> 00:49:33.335
<v Radha> It was a report for a group.

00:49:33.355 --> 00:49:35.605
<v Radha> But then there is this thing called Sawaliram.

00:49:36.795 --> 00:49:38.125
<v Radha> I don't know if you've come across it.

00:49:38.125 --> 00:49:44.135
<v Radha> It's okay, so in the 70s, there is this science project called Hosangabad Science Project right.

00:49:44.385 --> 00:49:49.035
<v Radha> Which was about making science education accessible to rural children, really.

00:49:49.235 --> 00:49:56.455
<v Radha> So it was a lot of the work was in Hindi and they brought out a magazine called Sandarbh, which even comes today.

00:49:56.925 --> 00:50:01.245
<v Radha> And some excellent science educators came together to make science accessible.

00:50:01.245 --> 00:50:02.990
<v Radha> This was in the 70s.

00:50:03.345 --> 00:50:05.245
<v Radha> And then it became Eklavya.

00:50:06.505 --> 00:50:07.265
<v Suraj> Oh okay.

00:50:07.615 --> 00:50:08.105
<v Radha> Eklavya Yeah.

00:50:08.605 --> 00:50:16.805
<v Radha> And then there used to be these postcards in those days where you wrote your question and sent it to Eklavya and you got an answer.

00:50:17.755 --> 00:50:18.655
<v Radha> So now-

00:50:18.945 --> 00:50:21.515
<v Suraj> there are some things that we should bring back.

00:50:21.705 --> 00:50:22.215
<v Radha> I think.

00:50:22.525 --> 00:50:23.475
<v Suraj> Like some things are actually much better.

00:50:23.885 --> 00:50:23.915
<v Radha> Yes.

00:50:23.915 --> 00:50:25.205
<v Radha> So much better.

00:50:25.515 --> 00:50:28.855
<v Radha> But now, so that was called Sawaliram questions.

00:50:30.205 --> 00:50:36.845
<v Radha> But now, some of the people have actually created an online version of the Salawiram.

00:50:37.655 --> 00:50:42.855
<v Radha> S-A-W, just put it into the chat box and as you can actually see it.

00:50:42.875 --> 00:50:45.855
<v Radha> S-A-W-A-L-I-R-A-M.

00:50:45.865 --> 00:50:46.195
<v Radha> Sawaliram, yeah.

00:50:46.685 --> 00:50:50.385
<v Radha> So Sawaliram, it's a friend now Jayshree Ramdas.

00:50:52.885 --> 00:50:54.625
<v Radha> So she had requested.

00:50:54.925 --> 00:50:57.275
<v Radha> So I've actually written articles on it for them.

00:50:58.215 --> 00:50:58.565
<v Suraj> Okay.

00:50:58.635 --> 00:50:59.565
<v Radha> It's on their website.

00:50:59.625 --> 00:51:00.385
<v Radha> Yeah, it's on their website.

00:51:00.735 --> 00:51:01.935
<v Radha> You can see pictures as well.

00:51:01.935 --> 00:51:02.418
<v Radha> Photographs as well.

00:51:02.525 --> 00:51:03.455
<v Suraj> All right, super.

00:51:03.455 --> 00:51:06.845
<v Suraj> I think that's a really, really illuminating example.

00:51:06.885 --> 00:51:17.515
<v Suraj> And this is a sidebar, but I work very closely with Cindy Hmelo-Silver, who is one of the people who talks a lot about and writes about problem based learning.

00:51:19.065 --> 00:51:23.685
<v Suraj> And her background is in aquatic ecosystems and respiratory therapy.

00:51:23.685 --> 00:51:30.615
<v Suraj> And it's one of the places where like we really get to re-imagine what it actually means to do science education.

00:51:30.615 --> 00:51:42.575
<v Suraj> This maybe points to why you resist the idea of classifying of what type of [inaudible] . Any sufficiently deep science question becomes-

00:51:42.585 --> 00:51:44.065
<v Radha> a larger question, exactly.

00:51:44.065 --> 00:51:44.415
<v Radha> Sure.

00:51:44.415 --> 00:51:44.555
<v Radha> Absolutely.

00:51:44.555 --> 00:51:49.225
<v Suraj> And I think your food example starts with a question of ... Well, actually it started as a social question.

00:51:49.225 --> 00:51:50.225
<v Suraj> Where does our food come from?

00:51:50.225 --> 00:51:50.445
<v Radha> Correct.

00:51:50.855 --> 00:51:54.385
<v Suraj> What grows where becomes thinking about what do we eat-

00:51:54.775 --> 00:51:55.345
<v Radha> exactly.

00:51:55.535 --> 00:51:56.745
<v ... Suraj> As a natural consequence of that question.

00:51:56.945 --> 00:51:58.195
<v Radha> Exactly, exactly.

00:51:58.945 --> 00:52:04.885
<v Suraj> But I'm glad we were just talking about some of these publications because this offers me an opportunity to change the topic entirely.

00:52:05.365 --> 00:52:10.285
<v Suraj> Earlier, you had talked about your role with I Wonder as one of your key roles.

00:52:10.295 --> 00:52:22.125
<v Suraj> So for our audience, I think I Wonder is a really ... I've had the chance to look at your article in there and there was, oh now I feel bad, but there was somebody else who we interviewed whose article I had read in I Wonder.

00:52:22.335 --> 00:52:23.465
<v Suraj> Oh no, it was Deborah.

00:52:23.505 --> 00:52:24.535
<v Suraj> Deborah had an article.

00:52:24.535 --> 00:52:24.825
<v Radha> Deborah, of course, yes.

00:52:24.905 --> 00:52:25.435
<v Radha> Deborah, yes

00:52:25.645 --> 00:52:29.165
<v Suraj> so it wasn't somebody we ... Now I feel really bad.

00:52:29.165 --> 00:52:31.425
<v Suraj> So maybe you can tell us a little bit about why.

00:52:31.615 --> 00:52:33.575
<v Suraj> And it's a relatively new publication, no

00:52:33.745 --> 00:52:34.745
<v Radha> yes, it is-

00:52:34.775 --> 00:52:37.495
<v Suraj> so maybe you can tell us a little bit about it and why?

00:52:37.505 --> 00:52:39.435
<v Radha> Yeah, 2015, '14.

00:52:39.585 --> 00:52:41.525
<v Radha> Sure, actually [crosstalk]

00:52:41.535 --> 00:52:46.115
<v Radha> .
<v Suraj> Why made and for what purpose and who contributes and that kind of thing?

00:52:46.185 --> 00:52:47.272
<v Radha> Sure, sure no problem.

00:52:47.555 --> 00:52:50.185
<v Radha> So I Wonder actually started off as a science magazine.

00:52:50.565 --> 00:52:54.735
<v Radha> And it started off as a popular science magazine for any interested reader, right?

00:52:55.415 --> 00:53:03.985
<v Radha> But over the last three years, it has actually changed its function to really be ... Three years?

00:53:04.155 --> 00:53:05.635
<v Radha> No, I think four years actually.

00:53:05.895 --> 00:53:07.235
<v Radha> But anyway, over the last few years.

00:53:07.785 --> 00:53:13.875
<v Radha> It has changed its role to become a science magazine for middle and high school teachers.

00:53:14.355 --> 00:53:14.795
<v Radha> Okay?

00:53:15.305 --> 00:53:27.665
<v Radha> And in the last two years, we've really narrowed it down even further to be relevant to field teachers, particularly in rural areas and government schools.

00:53:28.465 --> 00:53:29.285
<v Suraj> So why these

00:53:29.335 --> 00:53:32.005
<v Radha> because this is Azim Premji University.

00:53:32.005 --> 00:53:40.385
<v Radha> And Azim Premji University, it really has a very strong mandate of justice, equality and sustainability, right?

00:53:40.895 --> 00:53:57.145
<v Radha> And they have education research centers in multiple locations in the country, resource centers, education resource centers, where they work with local schools and teachers.

00:53:57.145 --> 00:53:58.225
<v Radha> Teacher education.

00:53:58.745 --> 00:54:05.945
<v Radha> And really reducing that inequality which we were just talking about in terms of access to quality education.

00:54:06.535 --> 00:54:10.395
<v Radha> So in that sense, since that is the mandate at the focus.

00:54:10.395 --> 00:54:24.755
<v Radha> So all of the magazines that Azim Premji University brings out now increasingly wanting to get more and more focused on addressing the needs of schools and education communities.

00:54:25.495 --> 00:54:42.695
<v Radha> And so now, we've also changed the composition of the editorial board to include more representation from the field so that we have a much better sense of what is their need?

00:54:43.335 --> 00:54:44.805
<v Radha> What is it that they're looking for?

00:54:44.805 --> 00:54:46.625
<v Radha> What kind of resources are they looking for?

00:54:46.835 --> 00:54:55.695
<v Radha> What are the gaps that need to be filled in order to be able to ... So it's very exciting because it is ... See earlier, we had scientists.

00:54:56.405 --> 00:54:59.625
<v Radha> Scientists, educators and mostly scientists contributing.

00:55:00.155 --> 00:55:10.955
<v Radha> So what happens is that scientists who are excellent, really good at their work and their research, but probably ... And also some of them write very well.

00:55:11.675 --> 00:55:21.765
<v Radha> But then when it comes to writing for teachers and schools and particularly schools and teachers from these backgrounds.

00:55:21.765 --> 00:55:26.615
<v Radha> From the much less privileged backgrounds, it's a completely different kettle of fish, right?

00:55:26.615 --> 00:55:28.655
<v Radha> I mean you have to write in a very different way.

00:55:29.555 --> 00:55:36.985
<v Radha> If you're writing on astronomy, et cetera, you have to actually be able to provide information and resources that teachers can use directly.

00:55:37.415 --> 00:55:39.755
<v Radha> Because they're grappling with the curriculum anyway, right?

00:55:39.955 --> 00:55:42.385
<v Radha> They are under a lot of resource constraints.

00:55:42.395 --> 00:55:55.615
<v Radha> So now, in fact, this latest issue, issue six, the feedback we've been getting about it is that wow, it's got like so many posters and activity sheets and the articles are so accessible.

00:55:55.615 --> 00:56:10.495
<v Radha> And it's about education and pedagogy and this is just really ... So it looks like we've finally slowly and steadily been moving in that direction of it really being a more accessible resource for practicing teachers, yeah.

00:56:11.725 --> 00:56:12.505
<v Suraj> Okay, great.

00:56:13.665 --> 00:56:19.765
<v Suraj> Part of why I asked for that is just that I think what I have seen of I Wonder is really wonderful.

00:56:19.815 --> 00:56:37.915
<v Suraj> And I think, just to zoom out for a little bit, this project that we're doing where we're doing these interviews and stuff is part of this much larger initiative around ... That started as like how can we get more people from countries that aren't well represented in the learning sciences field involved in our team?

00:56:38.275 --> 00:56:47.565
<v Suraj> Our thinking around the whole issue has really changed over time to become like what have we not been seeing and thinking about that we can talk to be people and learn more about.

00:56:47.565 --> 00:56:50.915
<v Suraj> And we've been doing these interviews for now, almost two years.

00:56:51.005 --> 00:56:52.345
<v Suraj> This is off the record.

00:56:52.375 --> 00:56:56.140
<v Suraj> I mean we're otherwise on the record but we'll cut it in post.

00:56:56.305 --> 00:56:57.185
<v Radha> Yeah, exactly.

00:56:57.185 --> 00:57:06.495
<v Suraj> But our thinking has so changed about ... And even the interview questions that we've brought to people have really changed and to hear more of these stories and things.

00:57:06.495 --> 00:57:21.205
<v Suraj> And all of that is to say what we're really hoping to do is along side these interviews, put up these things that say, "You know, these North American and white and European communities don't have a monopoly on good educational resources."

00:57:21.615 --> 00:57:22.355
<v Radha> that's right, that's right, that's right.

00:57:22.395 --> 00:57:36.375
<v Suraj> So I think I Wonder is a great example of the kind of super educational resource, something that I think people even in North America and Europe would find really useful in their educational activities, but would never even think to look for.

00:57:36.945 --> 00:57:36.995
<v Radha> Correct.

00:57:37.355 --> 00:57:39.355
<v Suraj> So that's the kind of thing that we're hoping to elevate.

00:57:39.355 --> 00:57:39.595
<v Radha> Great.

00:57:39.725 --> 00:57:41.995
<v Radha> Oh that would be ... That's an excellent ... Yeah.

00:57:43.465 --> 00:57:47.235
<v Suraj> So we're already at an hour if you can believe.

00:57:48.135 --> 00:57:49.395
<v Radha> Having a lot of fun clearly.

00:57:50.075 --> 00:57:50.185
<v Suraj> Yeah.

00:57:52.425 --> 00:57:53.005
<v Suraj> Well, I am but I don't know about you.

00:57:53.005 --> 00:57:58.205
<v Radha> No, no, but I mean you're giving me an opportunity to free float and talk and share my thoughts with you.

00:57:58.475 --> 00:58:06.135
<v Suraj> Well then you'll love this next question, but let me just outline a plan for the next half hour so that we're respectful of your time and cut off.

00:58:06.145 --> 00:58:13.295
<v Suraj> So I think I have one more question that is, I would say, substantial in nature I'd like to you talk about your theory and all like this.

00:58:13.855 --> 00:58:18.415
<v Suraj> Then I think I'll ask you to give a little bit advice to new researchers.

00:58:18.415 --> 00:58:25.725
<v Suraj> And then what we'll do is in our last few minutes, I'll just sort of repeat some of the main questions and give you an opportunity to add anything that you feel like-

00:58:26.265 --> 00:58:27.015
<v Radha> yeah, yeah.

00:58:27.035 --> 00:58:41.485
<v Suraj> So the next substantial, last, big question that I want to think about is across your work and even your story today, there really is this sense of place and this idea that you've written about and you were telling in your story with the students.

00:58:41.515 --> 00:58:44.475
<v Suraj> You walk around and you see what there is….

00:58:44.475 --> 00:58:54.265
<v Suraj> And in that piece, I think it was in Journal of Krishnamurti Schools where you talked about sitting in the forest for some amount of time and just looking around.

00:58:54.505 --> 00:59:00.315
<v Suraj> In the learning sciences recently, there has been some really wonderful work around these embodied questions.

00:59:00.315 --> 00:59:02.905
<v Suraj> Questions about place and place based education.

00:59:05.035 --> 00:59:07.885
<v Suraj> Or maybe place based education isn't the right term for it.

00:59:07.955 --> 00:59:08.301
<v Radha> Yes, it is.

00:59:08.355 --> 00:59:08.995
<v Radha> It is, yes.

00:59:08.995 --> 00:59:11.415
<v Suraj> But I have this question in two parts.

00:59:11.435 --> 00:59:15.995
<v Suraj> The first part, and I'll ask them both and then ask them again so we don't go totally off the rails.

00:59:16.095 --> 00:59:16.685
<v Radha> Sure, sure, sure.

00:59:16.685 --> 00:59:30.625
<v Suraj> So the first part of the question is just is there anything about this embodied, place based approach that you take that you think, thinking in specifically these Indian contexts, we might be able to learn something new if we focus?

00:59:30.625 --> 00:59:38.525
<v Suraj> And then the second piece of that is to offer an opportunity to think about what your work has been like in the past few years when it was been online and all like that.

00:59:38.525 --> 00:59:50.015
<v Suraj> So the first part, what about your work in these Indian contexts around these place based and embodied experiences might we be able to learn from outside of the Indian context?

00:59:50.385 --> 00:59:50.925
<v Radha> Okay.

00:59:51.045 --> 00:59:53.935
<v Radha> So one of the things about place based learning.

00:59:53.945 --> 01:00:02.305
<v Radha> And I really have embraced that term a lot these days because I find it really says what it is.

01:00:03.575 --> 01:00:05.595
<v Radha> India, of course, with all its diversity.

01:00:06.195 --> 01:00:11.155
<v Radha> It is so crucial that we do place based learning.

01:00:11.665 --> 01:00:15.840
<v Radha> Because it is embedded in that social ecological context.

01:00:16.195 --> 01:00:23.655
<v Radha> And like I said to you earlier, the reason that is important is because children come from very diverse contexts.

01:00:23.755 --> 01:00:30.685
<v Radha> Even to ... Like you take a government school in say, even in an urban city, right?

01:00:32.055 --> 01:00:32.345
<v Radha> Or rural.

01:00:33.435 --> 01:00:35.435
<v Radha> Children come from very diverse contexts.

01:00:36.725 --> 01:00:38.895
<v Radha> Some children, maybe first generation learners.

01:00:39.015 --> 01:00:45.945
<v Radha> Their parents are either agricultural labor or are doing some skilled work or the other.

01:00:46.065 --> 01:00:47.425
<v Radha> Or unskilled work or the other.

01:00:49.075 --> 01:00:52.515
<v Radha> Or come from farming background.

01:00:52.515 --> 01:00:52.575
<v Radha> Whatever.

01:00:53.655 --> 01:00:56.005
<v Radha> But they're all coming from diverse contexts, right?

01:00:56.035 --> 01:01:01.705
<v Radha> And so they're coming with ... And then [tribal] adivasi children who are coming from a very different context.

01:01:01.715 --> 01:01:06.415
<v Radha> So this homogenization of learning.

01:01:06.885 --> 01:01:19.505
<v Radha> Homogenization and uniformity of education destroys creativity, destroys a child's ability to think, destroys the confidence of the child, right?

01:01:25.375 --> 01:01:36.745
<v Radha> So it does not allow that child to articulate and express themselves without fear.

01:01:36.995 --> 01:01:50.335
<v Radha> Because you're expected to understand , you are in Rayalseema, you don't even know what anything looks like.

01:01:50.435 --> 01:01:57.075
<v Radha> You don't even know what the sea looks like but you're supposed to understand about Australia and its mineral resources and all of that stuff.

01:01:57.175 --> 01:02:02.885
<v Radha> Then you're supposed to understand about oceans and things.

01:02:03.925 --> 01:02:07.145
<v Radha> And you have no understanding because you've never even seen an ocean before.

01:02:07.145 --> 01:02:07.945
<v Radha> You've never seen the sea.

01:02:07.945 --> 01:02:11.255
<v Radha> You don't even know what a beach looks like and then you're supposed to understand this.

01:02:12.015 --> 01:02:26.127
<v Radha> So first and foremost, principles of science, understanding of phenomena around you, it's possible to be able to understand all concepts of physics, chemistry, biology by embedding it in that place.

01:02:26.127 --> 01:02:26.200
<v Radha> Not difficult at all.

01:02:26.200 --> 01:02:47.495
<v Radha> It is the ability to educators to be able to pull out example from that context which is forcing them to have standardized textbooks and standardized ... So the point here is you could have a framework.

01:02:47.635 --> 01:02:50.545
<v Radha> So we've tried this once or twice.

01:02:50.895 --> 01:02:53.265
<v Radha> You have a theme, say water, right?

01:02:54.365 --> 01:02:55.495
<v Radha> That's in your textbook.

01:02:56.185 --> 01:02:57.225
<v Radha> It's in chemistry.

01:02:57.285 --> 01:02:58.325
<v Radha> It's in physics.

01:02:58.545 --> 01:02:59.645
<v Radha> It's in biology.

01:02:59.675 --> 01:03:01.165
<v Radha> It's in history, right?

01:03:01.165 --> 01:03:09.755
<v Radha> But you pick up the theme of water and then you look around your environment and say okay, what is the ecological significance of water here?

01:03:09.955 --> 01:03:11.855
<v Radha> I can learn about the properties of water.

01:03:11.855 --> 01:03:16.345
<v Radha> I can learn about all that, but at the same time I can understand where does water come from?

01:03:16.345 --> 01:03:17.725
<v Radha> How do I access water?

01:03:17.995 --> 01:03:20.015
<v Radha> What is the technology is being used?

01:03:20.015 --> 01:03:22.355
<v Radha> How is energy being used to access water?

01:03:22.695 --> 01:03:26.255
<v Radha> All of that learning I can do with an understanding of my context.

01:03:28.835 --> 01:03:39.765
<v Radha> But the advantage of something like this is when you understand it in your context, the ability to address challenges in your context.

01:03:41.655 --> 01:03:43.655
<v Radha> Get embedded in your head.

01:03:44.625 --> 01:03:49.655
<v Radha> And when you're talking about the future of so much uncertainty, right?

01:03:50.125 --> 01:03:51.265
<v Radha> Climate uncertainty.

01:03:52.635 --> 01:04:05.215
<v Radha> Changing environment of technology and particularly information technology and bio technology, then you're talking about the jobs of the future are not going to be the same as the jobs of the past.

01:04:05.865 --> 01:04:13.325
<v Radha> Then you're talking about all of these changes and climate change, in itself, which is going to completely change reality of life.

01:04:14.035 --> 01:04:15.845
<v Radha> How do you cope with this uncertainty?

01:04:16.425 --> 01:04:19.225
<v Radha> How do you adapt to this uncertainty?

01:04:19.525 --> 01:04:24.175
<v Radha> How do you build flexibility to adapt to this uncertainty?

01:04:24.175 --> 01:04:31.115
<v Radha> It is by understanding your context so that you can equip yourself.

01:04:31.475 --> 01:04:35.325
<v Radha> First and foremost, you build confidence because you're using your own information and understanding.

01:04:35.945 --> 01:04:37.725
<v Radha> And then understanding science through that.

01:04:37.735 --> 01:04:39.555
<v Radha> Or using principles of science to understand.

01:04:41.565 --> 01:04:45.145
<v Suraj> There is like a clicking noise just there when you put your hands like that.

01:04:45.145 --> 01:04:45.425
<v Suraj> All right.

01:04:45.565 --> 01:04:46.315
<v Suraj> Yeah, that's fine.

01:04:46.545 --> 01:04:46.835
<v Radha> Okay.

01:04:47.685 --> 01:04:55.765
<v Suraj> [inaudible] if you gesture with that enthusiasm that that shakes so you don't have to hold it or anything, but just that particular motion, I think, go on.

01:04:56.435 --> 01:05:00.625
<v Radha> So then, therefore, the question then is if that if I don't.

01:05:01.295 --> 01:05:06.765
<v Radha> So as far as I can see, the understanding of how to survive in your context.

01:05:07.335 --> 01:05:08.565
<v Radha> Important, okay.

01:05:08.845 --> 01:05:09.808
<v Radha> How do you grow food?

01:05:09.808 --> 01:05:13.005
<v Radha> Because I think all education should definitely involve growing of food.

01:05:14.245 --> 01:05:14.865
<v Radha> And how do you?

01:05:14.875 --> 01:05:20.635
<v Radha> Because by growing food, you realize how I can use resources, okay?

01:05:21.545 --> 01:05:25.605
<v Radha> And that is a very ... Because all of the resources that you need to grow food.

01:05:25.895 --> 01:05:37.335
<v Radha> Water, land, soil, ecological conditions, ensuring the microbial quality or the soil fertility is ensured through microbial existence in that area.

01:05:38.415 --> 01:05:43.155
<v Radha> The inter relationships in that soil and ecosystem.

01:05:43.545 --> 01:05:45.155
<v Radha> So you understand all of that.

01:05:45.225 --> 01:05:50.105
<v Radha> You understand what can impact life in that ecosystem.

01:05:50.105 --> 01:05:56.745
<v Radha> So you really begin to understand inter relationships in that given ecosystem.

01:05:57.585 --> 01:05:59.575
<v Radha> It is intuitive.

01:05:59.575 --> 01:06:06.375
<v Radha> It builds on your own knowledge of that ecosystem, but you can abstract larger concepts from.

01:06:10.095 --> 01:06:18.625
<v Radha> So there is a foundation of familiarity, of understanding, from which you can abstract concepts of science, mathematics, whatever it is.

01:06:20.865 --> 01:06:33.745
<v Suraj> So here I'll perhaps refer our readers to that recent piece because in the Journal of Krishnamurtis Schools because I think that the example of students sitting in the forest raises some really, really lovely questions around science education.

01:06:33.745 --> 01:06:49.235
<v Suraj> But also there's such a reality of the kids getting impatient or the dignity of the children raising questions that we could not have predicted or that peacefulness that is a much easier said than done to sit in quiet contemplation of nature and all.

01:06:50.275 --> 01:06:55.915
<v Suraj> So here I'll just refer our students to that, our listeners to that piece.

01:06:55.915 --> 01:07:09.075
<v Suraj> Do you want to say anything about how you're thinking about this issue has, what you've done in practice or how you're thinking about place based education has evolved through this COVID period where much of your work has been online?

01:07:09.125 --> 01:07:21.105
<v Radha> Yeah, actually that's a good question to ask because it's been a challenge because so much of the work that I've done with children in the last few years has been in the outdoors, right?

01:07:21.685 --> 01:07:25.535
<v Radha> But I said okay, this is a challenge.

01:07:25.535 --> 01:07:26.695
<v Radha> Let's see how we can do this.

01:07:26.755 --> 01:07:38.405
<v Radha> And we actually did an online course with a bunch of third grade, fourth grade students and fifth grade actually, to do a nature walk from within your home.

01:07:39.035 --> 01:07:40.405
<v Radha> So as long you have a window.

01:07:41.145 --> 01:07:44.745
<v Radha> And it was a five day thing with you had one day.

01:07:46.235 --> 01:07:52.210
<v Radha> So you had a one day engagement and you had a one day online interaction for an hour and a half.

01:07:52.210 --> 01:07:54.775
<v Radha> And then they got the next off and then they came back.

01:07:54.775 --> 01:07:57.515
<v Radha> So every alternate day we had online engagement.

01:07:58.425 --> 01:08:00.075
<v Radha> And they were given homework to do.

01:08:00.675 --> 01:08:04.305
<v Radha> And they were basically ... So yeah.

01:08:05.365 --> 01:08:07.675
<v Radha> So this experience is there in the latest issue of I Wonder.

01:08:07.685 --> 01:08:07.725
<v Suraj> Oh great.

01:08:07.755 --> 01:08:10.475
<v Radha> It's called Structure and Spontaneity.

01:08:11.425 --> 01:08:13.305
<v Radha> The paradox of structure and spontaneity.

01:08:13.305 --> 01:08:14.405
<v Radha> So how much do you structure?

01:08:14.415 --> 01:08:16.245
<v Radha> How much do you keep spontaneous, right?

01:08:16.715 --> 01:08:21.045
<v Radha> Because you don't want to be telling them what do you.

01:08:21.155 --> 01:08:22.515
<v Radha> You want them to observe.

01:08:22.515 --> 01:08:23.785
<v Radha> You want them to become aware.

01:08:23.785 --> 01:08:25.195
<v Radha> You want them to become sensitive.

01:08:26.055 --> 01:08:31.935
<v Radha> But at the same time, you want them to develop some science skills of recording, inferring, all of that.

01:08:33.785 --> 01:08:34.135
<v Radha> So yeah.

01:08:34.135 --> 01:08:39.275
<v Radha> We were able to do that quite well because they discovered that there is nature indoors.

01:08:39.605 --> 01:08:54.315
And for this, I mean I used the formats that were given by some friends at NCF, Nature Conservation Fund [https://www.ncf-india.org/education-and-public-engagement/a-nature-learning-framework-for-schools] . And based in Mysore, many of them work in Bangalore.

01:08:55.765 --> 01:08:59.645
<v Radha> They're nature educators, of course, and they had these hidden housemates.

01:08:59.645 --> 01:09:04.045
<v Radha> They had these bingo sheets and hidden housemates.

01:09:04.045 --> 01:09:09.685
<v Radha> And so shared those sheets with these children and said go look for spiders and lizard poop in your house.

01:09:09.685 --> 01:09:13.885
<v Radha> And they did that and so it was incredible and it was possible.

01:09:14.385 --> 01:09:19.305
<v Radha> And then you suddenly realize, and I said, as long as you have a window in your house, that's enough.

01:09:20.695 --> 01:09:25.385
<v Radha> Because you go to the same window three times a day and look out and see what birds you see.

01:09:25.905 --> 01:09:26.605
<v Radha> Where do they live?

01:09:26.955 --> 01:09:28.095
<v Radha> How often do they come?

01:09:28.105 --> 01:09:30.305
<v Radha> Are they birds on the wire?

01:09:30.305 --> 01:09:31.625
<v Radha> Are they birds in the tree?

01:09:32.115 --> 01:09:35.765
<v Radha> So you really begin to ... So the one day they looked at birds.

01:09:35.765 --> 01:09:37.035
<v Radha> Another day at plants.

01:09:37.405 --> 01:09:43.335
<v Radha> A third day at, yeah, at insects.

01:09:43.765 --> 01:09:45.675
<v Radha> And a fourth day, hidden housemates, yeah.

01:09:46.025 --> 01:09:47.555
<v Radha> Oh yeah, sorry on the third day, hidden housemates.

01:09:47.585 --> 01:09:52.465
<v Radha> On the fourth day, they grew fungus on chapati and on rice.

01:09:52.475 --> 01:09:56.615
<v Radha> And I'm not sure parents were happy, but the kids were.

01:09:58.175 --> 01:10:00.205
<v Radha> So yeah, it was great fun.

01:10:00.265 --> 01:10:01.855
<v Radha> And the kids really enjoyed it.

01:10:02.945 --> 01:10:03.365
<v Radha> Yeah.

01:10:03.685 --> 01:10:06.975
<v Radha> So we managed, yeah.

01:10:06.975 --> 01:10:20.605
<v Suraj> Yeah, that creates this really fascinating direction for this place based research in these virtual worlds, I think, will be a very interesting direction of future research.

01:10:20.605 --> 01:10:28.015
<v Suraj> So at this point, I'll, in respect for your time here, pull us into a sort of closing.

01:10:28.015 --> 01:10:31.395
<v Suraj> So two closings.

01:10:31.425 --> 01:10:42.305
<v Suraj> The first closing we'll keep simple which is what advice do you have to newcomers to environmental education research in the Indian context?

01:10:42.305 --> 01:10:45.985
<v Suraj> What kinds of things should people be thinking about if they're interested in these issues?

01:10:47.615 --> 01:11:02.545
<v Radha> Okay, so I think when we talk about environmental education research, I think it's also important to understand, first and foremost, what is environmental education in an Indian context?

01:11:03.305 --> 01:11:09.945
<v Radha> One is a broad Indian context, but the other is within India, there is ecological contexts.

01:11:09.945 --> 01:11:13.535
<v Radha> There's geographical contexts and there's social contexts.

01:11:13.535 --> 01:11:16.565
<v Radha> And I think it's very important to look at all of these.

01:11:16.765 --> 01:11:21.505
<v Radha> It can become complex, but I think unless you understand all these dimensions.

01:11:23.795 --> 01:11:26.215
<v Radha> And when we say social, it's just like what we talked about.

01:11:26.885 --> 01:11:28.195
<v Radha> Caste, religion, political.

01:11:28.355 --> 01:11:29.695
<v Radha> I mean it's ideological.

01:11:29.695 --> 01:11:31.375
<v Radha> There's just so many layers to it.

01:11:31.375 --> 01:11:33.615
<v Radha> And if we don't understand all of that.

01:11:34.285 --> 01:11:37.685
<v Radha> Because policy is so strongly influenced by all of this, right?

01:11:37.705 --> 01:11:39.915
<v Radha> I mean the political landscape.

01:11:40.445 --> 01:11:49.715
<v Radha> And also this idea of a democratic country and what is the democratic structure at a local level?

01:11:50.115 --> 01:11:53.955
<v Radha> How does that impinge in environmental education?

01:11:55.115 --> 01:12:05.015
<v Radha> Because if you don't understand those structures, then environmental education only becomes environmental science and technology.

01:12:06.355 --> 01:12:11.565
<v Suraj> Which I think we've covered is not enough.

01:12:12.405 --> 01:12:16.135
<v Radha> Not enough unfortunately, yes.

01:12:16.135 --> 01:12:16.140
<v Radha> Yeah.

01:12:16.145 --> 01:12:45.325
<v Radha> So I would say really to ... And like you said about gender and about ... I think it's very important to design environmental education research to understand these multiple dimensions of how they intersect in shaping how the human populations engage with the resources around them.

01:12:45.375 --> 01:12:48.068
<v Radha> And then how they're influenced and how they influence.

01:12:48.068 --> 01:12:52.605
<v Radha> I think to understand that relationship, it's very important to their ... Yeah.

01:12:53.105 --> 01:12:53.665
<v Radha> I would say.

01:12:54.785 --> 01:13:05.425
<v Suraj> I would also like to, in closing, give you an opportunity to talk about if you want to speak at all about how COVID-19 has shaped your thinking or your work in the past two years?

01:13:05.425 --> 01:13:09.485
<v Suraj> I know we talked about this, the implications for virtual things.

01:13:09.485 --> 01:13:13.795
<v Suraj> But you can also pass on this question, but given the-

01:13:14.395 --> 01:13:19.815
<v Radha> no, no, it's a very serious issue.

01:13:19.825 --> 01:13:29.735
<v Radha> For me, it really has made me think about what I want to spend the rest of my life, I guess, or my time in education doing.

01:13:29.785 --> 01:13:33.340
<v Radha> Because there's this group that I am very closely engaged in.

01:13:33.535 --> 01:13:36.155
<v Radha> And these are friends in Telangana and Andhra Pradesh.

01:13:36.155 --> 01:13:39.395
<v Radha> And we work on the children's program together.

01:13:40.715 --> 01:13:52.445
<v Radha> And you realize, we've just recently been doing some work at trying to understand what are the children, how are the children going to go back to school, right?

01:13:53.085 --> 01:13:54.125
<v Radha> One and a half years.

01:13:54.805 --> 01:13:58.915
<v Radha> So literally they have moved from say grade two to grade four.

01:13:59.665 --> 01:14:01.685
<v Radha> Grade three has disappeared, right?

01:14:02.125 --> 01:14:03.725
<v Radha> How are these children going to cope?

01:14:04.115 --> 01:14:09.665
<v Radha> Many of them have not had access to online education because they don't have the facilities, right?

01:14:09.945 --> 01:14:12.295
<v Radha> They don't either have access to a telephone.

01:14:12.845 --> 01:14:14.935
<v Radha> Forget the laptop, even to a mobile phone.

01:14:15.265 --> 01:14:17.625
<v Radha> And if they do, then there isn't stable internet.

01:14:18.255 --> 01:14:22.145
<v Radha> And there is one phone in the family, I mean all of the infrastructure challenges.

01:14:23.395 --> 01:14:24.555
<v Radha> So that's one.

01:14:24.575 --> 01:14:29.105
<v Radha> Now how do these children, and many of the children have forgotten to read.

01:14:29.675 --> 01:14:30.335
<v Radha> How to write.

01:14:30.445 --> 01:14:30.455
<v Radha> Numeracy.

01:14:34.555 --> 01:14:40.805
<v Radha> So with these challenges, what science are you going to do when we talk about science education, right?

01:14:41.695 --> 01:14:42.905
<v Radha> So where do you begin?

01:14:43.125 --> 01:14:45.005
<v Radha> How do you work with teachers?

01:14:46.645 --> 01:14:50.485
<v Radha> How do equip teachers with the ability to cope with these kind of gaps?

01:14:51.455 --> 01:14:52.955
<v Radha> Now this is COVID-19, right?

01:14:53.265 --> 01:14:59.011
<v Radha> But I am seeing as we go into the future, there are going to be a lot of disruptions.

01:14:59.011 --> 01:15:00.155
<v Radha> There is climate change.

01:15:00.165 --> 01:15:02.325
<v Radha> If somebody is stuck in a flood prone area.

01:15:03.835 --> 01:15:08.085
<v Radha> If you have to migrate and move away from flooding, coastal cities, right?

01:15:08.505 --> 01:15:16.545
<v Radha> And it's always that section of society which it's going to hit which gets hit all the time because they don't have access to power and to facilities.

01:15:17.595 --> 01:15:19.235
<v Radha> They don't have access to power.

01:15:19.265 --> 01:15:22.965
<v Radha> They are not powerful enough to be able to access their facilities or their resources.

01:15:22.985 --> 01:15:26.505
<v Radha> So it's always going to be those marginalized communities.

01:15:26.645 --> 01:15:32.075
<v Radha> So how are we going to shape and change our education system or transform it?

01:15:32.475 --> 01:15:35.905
<v Radha> Or make it flexible enough to accommodate all of this?

01:15:36.975 --> 01:15:51.235
<v Radha> So that's something that I've really been thinking about very strongly and how do we all, as maybe not in that formal teaching system of government schools, how do we support the teachers as educators?

01:15:51.235 --> 01:15:59.545
<v Radha> Or as people who are clearly interested in this ... Who feel very strongly about the need for the right education.

01:16:00.855 --> 01:16:03.295
<v Radha> Because for me, this is sustainable education seriously.

01:16:03.295 --> 01:16:17.715
<v Radha> And if we don't do this, if we don't get all these children equipped with the ability to be able to educate themselves, then forget about place based and forget about pedagogy, right?

01:16:18.425 --> 01:16:24.145
<v Radha> And if you can't even get them to read and write and there's been a huge setback.

01:16:24.405 --> 01:16:25.460
<v Radha> I mean there is a massive population of children in India who lost out.

01:16:25.460 --> 01:16:37.130
<v Radha> Yeah, so that, for me, is really a big thing as the fall out of COVID.

01:16:37.385 --> 01:16:41.065
<v Radha> All the children of these migrants who have been displaced.

01:16:41.065 --> 01:16:43.165
<v Radha> And so yeah.

01:16:43.855 --> 01:16:46.545
<v Radha> And how do you do that with small libraries?

01:16:46.545 --> 01:16:48.745
<v Radha> How do you build public libraries and get access?

01:16:48.755 --> 01:16:54.275
<v Radha> So that the next time something like this happens, can they go to a public library and be provided?

01:16:54.275 --> 01:17:06.375
<v Radha> Like in Kerala, television sets have been installed in remote villages and the government actually did set up education programs through the television.

01:17:07.265 --> 01:17:14.935
<v Radha> So even if you don't have access to internet, et cetera, recorded videos were cast on television.

01:17:14.935 --> 01:17:22.945
<v Radha> So the children will watch it and in the community center, where you could organize them to have enough physical distance between themselves.

01:17:24.975 --> 01:17:35.315
<v Radha> So yeah, so I'm really ... That's something that's been ... Yeah, in my head.

01:17:35.325 --> 01:17:41.175
<v Suraj> Yeah, your point that we will have disruptions in the future really gets to me.

01:17:41.215 --> 01:17:51.445
<v Suraj> And I think what a shame it will be if and when these disruptions happen and we turn out to have not really learned anything from this tremendous disruption.

01:18:01.065 --> 01:19:08.325
<v Radha> Yeah, yeah, exactly.