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<v Shailaja> Okay, wonderful.

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<v Shailaja> Okay.

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<v Shailaja> So first I want to thank you for this project.

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<v Shailaja> I think it is very important that we talk about our work and the research teaching, and social justice, and activism work there too.

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<v Shailaja> Scholars like me are engaged in and make it accessible.

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<v Shailaja> I think that is very important and that is a reason I was very excited about what you're trying to do with your project.

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<v Shailaja> So thanks for that, it's a very good initiative.

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<v Shailaja> About myself, I'm a scholar activist and I am devoted to studying the actions, lives, experiences and ideas of marginalized communities, especially Dalits and Dalit women in South Asia.

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<v Shailaja> And I center them in my work so that I can of course, through their ideas work towards an anticaste, anti-racial, anti-untouchability and anti-patriarchal scholarship-activism.

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<v Shailaja> This agenda has been at the core of my scholarly activist work for the last 25 years of my life.

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<v Shailaja> I published a book on Dalit Women's Education In Modern India Double Discrimination in 2014.

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<v Shailaja> And I have published several articles in prestigious international journals.

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<v Shailaja> My second book is coming out with Stanford Press, and it focuses on the politics of caste, class, gender, sexuality and popular culture in Maharashtra.

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<v Shailaja> I am writing the first social and intellectual history of Tamasha a popular art form and secular public theatre in Maharashtra.

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<v Shailaja> I am a historian, but I also work as an anthropologist and a social scientist, and I conduct a oral history interviews.

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<v Shailaja> I love to work with people, the community, I like to interact with people who I am writing about and thinking with.

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<v Shailaja> So I spend a lot of time in the field to do that and I do not just sit in the library or in an ivory tower writing about people in the past or in the present.

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<v Shailaja> Such an interactive methodology is at the core of my work.

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<v Vishesh> So to draw a bit on the history of how you ended up focusing on this, are there specific experiences you would want to highlight or surface in the context of your education work journey that motivated you to choose these focuses?

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<v Shailaja> I started my academic journey with the Indian Council of Social Sciences and Research and Ford International Fellowship Program to work on my MPhil and then eventually my PhD.

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<v Shailaja> And I was thinking about research topics.

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<v Shailaja> I came across a significant gap in the available knowledge about Dalit women.

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<v Shailaja> And most importantly, I also saw that there was a huge gap between the qualitative and quantitative information that was available I found that there was some quantitative information on Dalit's education and especially Dalit women's education in terms of figures or graphs, some bar diagrams, percentages and so on, but what was missing was qualitative information.

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<v Shailaja> The stories, the actual experiences, the ideas of women were missing in the available literature and scholarly evaluation of education of Dalits especially.

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<v Shailaja> And that is what was really intriguing to me.

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<v Shailaja> But of course at the same time I have been trained in history, so that meant that I would also have to look at the archival materials in the past to gain an understanding about Dalit women's access and the process of education that I was interested in.

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<v Shailaja> So that was another challenge I have to say, because the archives are very biased towards certain communities and especially women, and on top of that Dalit women, and that was a challenging task.

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<v Shailaja> So I had to think about innovative ways in which I could still write about the histories of the Dalit women's education.

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<v Shailaja> So I had to make some strategic decisions about the topic that I was going to study.

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<v Shailaja> These were some of the challenges that I had to think through.

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<v Shailaja> And the third and the most important thing was, I am a Dalit woman myself, I am a Dalit woman scholar.

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<v Shailaja> When I started my research in the late 1990s, I felt that this was the way in which I could understand my community and myself better.

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<v Shailaja> So yes, I was reading and I was interacting with people, but at the same time an analytical and scholarly journey would really allow me to deeply understand and connect with the community.

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<v Shailaja> And that is where I felt that my research could be a very fantastic tool advancing towards my goals.

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<v Shailaja> And that is how I started working on it and it helped me return to the community, and reconnect with the community at a very deep level.

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<v Shailaja> So that is the reason I chose to work on Dalit history and especially Dalit women for these reasons.

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<v Shailaja> And then also the current, the contemporary research was really lacking the analytical strength and perspective to understand the double discrimination as I call it, of Dalit women on lines of caste and gender.

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<v Shailaja> And these are some of the reasons why I chose to work on Dalit women.

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<v Vishesh> This makes me think of two to three different sets of thoughts, but do you want to speak about...

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<v Vishesh> Then our first question on...

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<v Vishesh> And I think some of it is implicitly answered in your personal life and experience, and community.

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<v Vishesh> But, with respect to how you position your work or the word you choose for writing to the public, what are your choices around the vocabulary you use?

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<v Vishesh> What are your feelings around identifying solidarity as “Dalit women” versus “Bahujan women and folks”?

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<v Vishesh> And are there specific terms you use and specific terms you avoid, and recommendations that you would have?

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<v Shailaja> The politics of naming is very tense and that's what when I was writing my dissertation really, I was a part of a conversation, very intense and these were very tense moments.

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<v Shailaja> And I changed from Dalits to “Scheduled Castes” and then back to Dalits and so on.

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<v Shailaja> And I had a chapter in my dissertation talking about these terms and I wrote about it, and I published an article in 2011, it sounds really old, but it's very relevant and it's being taught in classrooms and is read widely.

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<v Shailaja> It's about Mahar–Dalit–Buddhist, the history and politics of naming in Maharashtra.

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<v Shailaja> So naming is very important and I use the word “untouchable” as it is used in contemporary sources.

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<v Shailaja> So historically for example, if when Dalits.

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<v Shailaja> and untouchable, and Ambedkar use the word untouchable, I would use it.

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<v Shailaja> But mostly I use the word Dalit, which is in global currency today and it has historical political and social significance.

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<v Shailaja> And that is the reason I continue to use the word.

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<v Shailaja> However, I have to say that I mean, just myself, my grandmother, my parents and just tracking my journey, and myself, we have all used different terms to identify ourselves and identify our communities.

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<v Shailaja> I also see for example, my daughter, this is just sharing my personal life, but she has a bracelet on her hand which says “untouchable.” So she's very proud to reclaim and basically and assert her identity, so that also is immense.

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<v Shailaja> And following Ambedkar, who argue that labels are very important and he used the word Untouchable with a capital U and he says, that is really a term, instead of running away from the term, you can assert it with a capital U and that really forces the oppressor to recognize the problem and the discrimination.

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<v Shailaja> So might as well just use it.

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<v Shailaja> So I am fine.

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<v Shailaja> I and myself, I'm comfortable with the word untouchable, but I use the word Dalit as it was used by Ambedkar, the Dalit Panthers, and is used globally in contemporary times, and in the past.

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I published an article on the term “Dalit” in thewire.in and available at https://thewire.in/caste/what-b-r-ambedkar-thought-of-the-word-dalit

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<v Vishesh> Nice, thank you for sharing.

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<v Vishesh> Yeah, that feels incredibly valuable for many of us to pick up and hold with sense, hold and try to understand.

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<v Vishesh> Where can we go at next?

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<v Vishesh> So you to some extent mentioned your work in education and also some aspects of the geographic situation.

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<v Vishesh> Are there things you'd want to highlight more about your body of work in education, especially your goals, theories, methods, research questions, and choices of locations?

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<v Shailaja> When I started my work on education I wanted to understand the access and the process of education for Dalit women.

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<v Shailaja> And especially for these girls and women who were not allowed access to any kind of knowledge and learning for centuries.

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<v Shailaja> And it is only with the social and the political reform movements from the middle towards the end of the 19th century that we see many Dalits and Bahujan accessing education.

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<v Shailaja> So I really wanted to understand what this access meant for these communities.

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<v Shailaja> What was the process like for these girls to enter schools where they were not wanted, where they were not welcomed, where they were discriminated against and had to really face very torturous experiences when they were trying to seek education.

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<v Shailaja> So that was the goal.

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<v Shailaja> And for this as I said, as a historian it was very difficult to have any archival material because unlike dominant castes, unlike the privileged class, Dalits do not have any recorded histories in the archives.

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<v Shailaja> And that is why I said that the archives are very biased towards women and towards marginalized communities like Dalits.

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<v Shailaja> And so I had to work with oral histories, so that's how I tried to...

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<v Shailaja> Yes, whatever was available in the archive I juxtaposed that with oral narratives of women and who, I spent a long time talking with them about their journeys of education.

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<v Shailaja> And then I had three generations of women where I could compare their stories and their experiences.

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<v Shailaja> So for example, I interviewed a woman, she passed away long back, but she was in her mid '80s or maybe early '80s and then she talked about her school and her college in the 1930s.

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<v Shailaja> She was the first one to attend a college in Pune and oh, she talked about her experience as it was absolutely wonderful to be able to get to the 1930s through this woman's voice.

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<v Shailaja> And it is very rare as I said, she was the first Dalit woman and she was the only Dalit woman in that space, and the hurdles and challenges that she had to face while seeking education.

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<v Shailaja> So that method was very, very important.

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<v Shailaja> So bringing together the materials in the archives, in the libraries and the oral histories, and juxtaposing those different kinds of archives.

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<v Shailaja> And that is one of the most unique aspects of my work, where I bring together the oral and the written.

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<v Shailaja> So that's one, second is my work with vernacular Marathi sources.

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<v Shailaja> So we know that Dalits and Bahujans, they were not educated in an English medium or did not know much about the English language and did not write or speak the language.

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<v Shailaja> So they used and continue to use the vernacular, doesn't matter if it's Tamil, or Hindi, or Marathi, or Bangla and so on and so forth.

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<v Shailaja> And so it is the vernacular that really is, I would say, the backbone of my work because that provides the vocabulary of a very specific local regional context.

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<v Shailaja> That is the language that Dalits have used and that helped me understand the experiences of these women, and the ways they articulated their lives and their ideas.

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<v Shailaja> And the third is also bringing together theories from yes, emerging from the Dalits’ location and the larger South Asian location, as well as from the north, and the east, and the west as we call them, but making, connecting them in a way that will help us understand the lives of marginalized communities and Dalit women for my purposes.

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<v Shailaja> So I brought together these new methods and these theories and for example, reading Foucault and theorists of education such as Paulo Freire and Gramsci or Giroux and so on.

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<v Shailaja> But reading them with Phule, Ambedkar, Dalit radicals, and Dalit women.

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<v Shailaja> There are some speeches or even sometimes these are not long essays, but maybe some lines here and there, or some paragraphs that Dalit women, that their speeches were quoted in these newspapers.

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<v Shailaja> So bringing together these different theories, and frameworks, and methods to understand Critical Dalit pedagogy.

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That these are the ways in which I have tried to work, I've adopted these different strategies to understand Critical Dalit pedagogy and I also recently published an article about it in the wire.in available at https://thewire.in/caste/what-dalit-people-taught-us-about-education-and-why-we-must-commit-to-it

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<v Vishesh> This makes me think of a question we did not write out.

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<v Vishesh> If you want to think about that separately, we can come back to this question.

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<v Vishesh> But especially when you mentioned Dalit pedagogy, I want to know if you have a set of thoughts about what are critical ways to reconceptualize what is valuable learning and education itself, and processes of education from your work in synthesizing these different, both scholarship, histories, and thinking about what does learning itself mean?

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<v Vishesh> We know in many levels that skill level and language learning have different affordances and shortcomings, and there's the whole context of NEP 2020 also…A few aspects of the discourse I have heard about are regional language learning is likely going to weaken marginalized communities access to dominant ways of education and so on, of engaging.

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<v Vishesh> So yeah, do you have any sets of thoughts?

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<v Shailaja> Yeah, I think it's mainly are the ones again, coming from my historical work and looking at what Dalit themselves have said about the education they want, I think is very, very important.

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<v Shailaja> So just going back 150 years tells us a lot about what Dalits had to say about their ideas of education., and that is what exactly what I'm tracking in the book.

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<v Shailaja> So for example, when Ambedkar, he argues that education for Dalits is not merely about entering schools, and I have this in my book about his ideas of education.

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<v Shailaja> So for him, Dalit education is not only for entering schools or getting degrees, but it is mainly a tool to fight caste.

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<v Shailaja> It is a tool to fight oppression and discrimination that Dalits face.

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<v Shailaja> It is a tool for Dalits to seek self-respect, dignity, and self-reliance.

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<v Shailaja> And this is very significant, so education is not merely for gaining degrees or getting employment, but it has a significant potential for fighting systemic oppression.

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<v Shailaja> And that is something that is very unique that we see and but this is what I see where Critical Dalit Pedagogy is heading.

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<v Shailaja> Please look up my essay I mentioned earlier.

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<v Vishesh> Nice.

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<v Vishesh> Taking half a step back to the last question then we were thinking about, would you have other specific short models, thinkers, theories or schools of thought that you would like to highlight as key influences for your work, I'm thinking?

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<v Shailaja> Yeah, definitely.

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<v Shailaja> So I know as I was mentioning with Paulo Freire, Gramci, Ambedkar, Phule, for my purposes and most importantly, Black Feminist Thought.

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<v Shailaja> So when I was thinking about Dalit women suppression and the double discrimination on lines of caste and gender, I have also tried to make some conversations, initiate and build some conversations between the politics of race in the US and caste in India, as it has affected Dalit women and African American women.

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<v Shailaja> So Black Feminist Politics was a very important, it provided me very important tools to think through the specific oppression of Dalit women.

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<v Shailaja> And so scholars like Patricia Hill Collins, bell hooks who passed away unfortunately recently.

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<v Shailaja> So I have really benefited from reading their work as well as other Black thinkers like Sylvia Wynter and Achille Mbembe who write about Black humanism] . So it has been very generative to think through these different works, to understand the lives of the marginalized.

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<v Shailaja> And I continue to do that, so my second book also has a very important section on reading and thinking through Ambedkar and Black theorists.

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<v Shailaja> So these are some of the ways in which I have tried to work on.

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<v Vishesh> Yeah.

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<v Vishesh> And that reminds me of, if you wanted to specifically talk a bit more about, I noticed that you use humanism and womanism as framing values and I think this was a three years ago seminar.

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<v Vishesh> What are your thoughts around, what are the features that gives you and what were its …shortcomings might be too a negative framing, but what are the affordances and limitations of using those framings?

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<v Vishesh> Are there other frameworks you thought about, you looked at and you were like, these don't add much value?

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<v Shailaja> You're right.

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<v Shailaja> . Once again, as I was mentioning about bridging or building bridges between the two communities, Blacks and Dalits.

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<v Shailaja> And in 2016, I wrote an article on building solidarities, it's called Building Bridges and Articulating Solidarities between African American and Dalit Women.

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<v Shailaja> And that is where I lay out a framework of connecting these two communities.

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<v Shailaja> And yes, the context and the social, and the cultural differences are very significant, but at the same time we can certainly draw some parallels between the two communities and try to understand the oppressions.

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<v Shailaja> And I think this global exchange really helps us to get a little deeper into the lived experiences of these disadvantaged communities.

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<v Shailaja> And most important there has been a dialogue between the two communities since even the earlier, the mid 19th century, so there's a long history to it.

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<v Shailaja> However, there is no conversation between the women and that is what I was trying to do.

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<v Shailaja> So in 2016, that article was very, very important and those conversations and then thinking through Ambedkar, I saw I mean, that the limitations of conventional feminism are something that need to be teased out.

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<v Shailaja> So I've continued to build on my work and that is where I'm seeing that the vocabularies that Dalits have actually used.

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<v Shailaja> So for example, talking in Marathi when Dalits talk about the concept of the human or manus or Ambedkar talks about this idea of manuski , which is basically dignified humanity.

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<v Shailaja> It's humanity to become human.

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<v Shailaja> And so when I'm thinking about this, that is where I see the word womanism and yes, it's bell hooks.

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<v Shailaja> And I think about that and then I think about Ambedkar's use of the word manuski] , and that is where I came up with this category of womanism, humanism, which is more capacious for Dalits.

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<v Shailaja> And it allows them to work on a broader framework and praxis to think through self-respect and self-reliance, their ideas of dignity and what it is to be a human and a human being when they have not been allowed to even, they're considered not human enough, they're considered that they're not even a woman enough.

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<v Shailaja> So they are trying to push against these frameworks of dominant privileged castes as well as, during the colonial times, the colonial government.

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<v Shailaja> That is how I brought it together to articulate this idea of womanism, humanism.

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<v Shailaja> And most importantly, once again, it is Dalit women who are creating it, it is Dalit radicals who are proposing these thoughts.

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<v Shailaja> So they also talk about this, they also push against the double patriarchy as I call it, both the private inside Dalit homes, as well as the public when they are talking about upper castes and patriarchy.

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<v Shailaja> So it is these concepts and these ideas that really help us understand even more as to know what Dalit women were fighting against.

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<v Vishesh> That makes me think and a recurring thought for me when I was seeing you talk about double discrimination and conceptualizing Dalit women's oppression across multiple axis.

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<v Vishesh> This I think has to do a lot with my own education experience the terms here and being younger and hearing the vocabulary nowadays, but was there thinking behind not using the language of intersectionality or matrix of oppression, or other frameworks like that, or do you do that and I just missed it possibly?

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<v Shailaja> Yeah, I do that throughout my work.

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<v Vishesh> Oh, I'm sorry.

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<v Shailaja> Intersectionality has been very central and that is the reason in the going back to Black Feminist Politics.

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<v Shailaja> I think, just it really helped me understand the double oppression of Dalit women.

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<v Shailaja> So it has been there throughout, but there have also been ways in which I am expanding it and extending it by, for example, looking at how reformers and radicals in the Indian context have articulated these intersectional oppressions.

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<v Shailaja> So we know that the word intersectionality is really overused and it is in fashion and so on, but at the same time really understanding how then it's understood their oppression.

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<v Shailaja> Yes, that the framework helps you to see how it exactly happened and so I think that is what I get to how they're co-constituting and how this oppression is registering at multiple levels.

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<v Vishesh> Are there any highlights you would want to surface as to what is unique about the double discrimination conceptualization you are doing, in contrast with Black Feminist literature and thinking?

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<v Shailaja> Over the last twenty-five years, I have developed, revised, and deepened my work and my thought on intersectionality.

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<v Shailaja> I see that it's not just adding layers of discrimination, but as I just said, as to looking at how they're co-constituting and how we can think of conjugated oppression.

00:32:54.039 --> 00:33:04.000
<v Shailaja> And we are able to understand how the oppression is taking place on deeper lines.

00:33:04.560 --> 00:33:14.220
<v Shailaja> So if we can think about that in that manner, I think that is more helpful.

00:33:15.780 --> 00:33:16.039
<v Vishesh> All right.

00:33:17.650 --> 00:33:35.849
<v Vishesh> Moving a bit sideways, that is a bit less theoretical, from your study what or do you currently believe are the most critical issues regarding the learning experiences of Dalit women in Indian, in South Asia, especially across ages and environments?

00:33:36.580 --> 00:33:42.600
<v Vishesh> What do you think about youth and schools, homes and other spaces like playgrounds to adults and families, homes and night schools?

00:33:43.330 --> 00:33:43.540
<v Shailaja> Yeah.

00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:55.479
<v Shailaja> So first I have to emphasize, I'm not a scholar of education studies, it just happened that my first book was on education and that was very, very important.

00:33:55.790 --> 00:33:59.840
<v Shailaja> The book is taught in classrooms in different parts of the world.

00:34:00.060 --> 00:34:05.509
<v Shailaja> It is also used by activists because I have some important statistics in there.

00:34:05.950 --> 00:34:16.009
<v Shailaja> I also have historical data that shows us how discrimination took place for example, in a particular village school in rural Maharashtra.

00:34:16.389 --> 00:34:20.210
<v Shailaja> And just that's a different ways in which it manifested.

00:34:20.489 --> 00:34:34.085
<v Shailaja> I think that it's absolutely brilliant to understand and to see what is happening in the 21st century, and has its roots so much in what happened hundred and fifty years ago in the past.

00:34:34.085 --> 00:34:59.962
<v Shailaja> And some things have changed, but at the same time, you see recurrent forms and even deeper, different manifestations of caste, class, and gender discrimination in a variety of locations.

00:34:59.962 --> 00:35:09.520
<v Shailaja> There has been much change, the enrollment numbers have changed, many are able to access education, but at the same time, my research reveals that many are left out.

00:35:09.520 --> 00:35:31.980
<v Shailaja> And so especially, I need to point this out because the government and many untouchables, upper castes, and agencies are talking about how the numbers, literacy rates are very high and very impressive, but at the same time Dalits are left out and the process has been very challenging for them.

00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:35.809
<v Shailaja> And this is what my interviews revealed.

00:35:36.210 --> 00:35:55.100
<v Shailaja> Also, we know about the big hullabaloo around reservations and when upper castes and the state is talking about reservations for women who I interviewed, also mentioned that they were...

00:35:55.930 --> 00:35:58.780
<v Shailaja> I'm talking about as I said, for three generations of women.

00:35:59.410 --> 00:36:07.210
<v Shailaja> So most of the women in the first generation mentioned that they had no idea about any concessions being given.

00:36:07.569 --> 00:36:25.129
<v Shailaja> So yes, many in the second or the third generation were aware of them, but in the first, women were not aware that they could get some scholarships or some support or bags, or dress, or they did not have books.

00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:30.450
<v Shailaja> So you clearly see as to how they had to face these numerous challenges.

00:36:30.790 --> 00:36:50.539
<v Shailaja> And on top of that the social environment, so we also see that women in these different generations could not form friendships across caste barriers and that story is so relevant even in the 21st century.

00:36:51.690 --> 00:37:17.279
<v Shailaja> They also talked about how even their home environment at times, yes, it has changed, but at the same time, they continue to be challenges that they have to keep pushing against and how patriarchy is still quite a dominant feature that they have to keep fighting against.

00:37:17.670 --> 00:37:51.189
<v Shailaja> And they also talked about as to how certain people have moved on and that's where I have a chapter in my book on middle-classes as to how they have benefited from reservations and they have been able to move up socially and upwardly mobile, but the majority of Dalits, they have a long way to go.

00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:29.250
<v Vishesh> The part that I'm interested in, but I don't know the right way to think about the idea that…you're not the authority on education policy or so on, as you're saying, but from your studies and from your talking to these people, do you feel like the strongest potential is still in policy change and structural change?

00:38:31.050 --> 00:38:43.555
<v Vishesh> And do you think that is at the level of like, what everyone is educated about with respect to caste issues, or is it about changing policies at the teacher level, at the classroom level or something else?

00:38:43.750 --> 00:38:50.060
<v Vishesh> What are your instincts around these different ways that there have been attempts, but all of these attempts have shortcomings?

00:38:50.060 --> 00:39:08.400
<v Shailaja> So it just exactly underlines what I spoke just now, the insights of these women really talk to the changes that could be made in education policies.

00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:33.499
<v Shailaja> I'm a historian, I focus on education for a number of years, so what I'm bringing to light are the experiences of Dalit women themselves, who are providing us clues to make changes on both individual level as well as the policy level.

00:39:33.859 --> 00:39:49.000
<v Shailaja> And so whatever I mentioned right now, so for example, making sure that the benefits or the concessions that are provided from the top are really reaching the people.

00:39:50.259 --> 00:39:55.950
<v Shailaja> Because women complain that they were not aware or they did not get these benefits.

00:39:56.020 --> 00:40:02.010
<v Shailaja> Or for example, yes, one scholarship was announced, but they got this only after they may have graduated.

00:40:02.250 --> 00:40:04.410
<v Shailaja> So that was of no use, right.

00:40:05.330 --> 00:40:19.910
<v Shailaja> Women could not really avail of those benefits at the right time and that really points out to the loopholes in the system, and that tells us as to the kind of work that needs to go into this.

00:40:19.910 --> 00:40:35.920
<v Shailaja> These are some of the things that have been really vocalized by women themselves.

00:40:37.799 --> 00:40:38.040
<v Vishesh> Nice.

00:40:40.790 --> 00:40:43.044
<v Shailaja> Or, like changes in textbooks for or...

00:40:43.059 --> 00:41:01.512
<v Shailaja> For example first, is a policy that the women were not able to access textbooks, or they were so poor that they were buying second or third hand textbooks, materials.

00:41:01.512 --> 00:41:07.449
<v Shailaja> And they were in such a bad shape that they were not even able to read the script in the textbook..

00:41:07.710 --> 00:41:29.799
<v Shailaja> And also, changes in the textbook and we are aware of the big politics as to how textbooks have really changed over times, how the majoritarian Hindu politics is affecting textbooks and at school, right from the elementary levels.

00:41:30.170 --> 00:42:04.980
<v Shailaja> And so making sure that there are no drastic changes to these stories, making sure that the textbook is really inclusive of histories of Dalits and Bahujan communities, and women, and not any random politics that is affecting these stories.

00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:22.319
<v Shailaja> So we have to make sure that this is done, so that students are better educated and that they're better informed about history and the politics, and the different social, and political, and religious reform movements.

00:42:22.670 --> 00:42:47.709
<v Shailaja> This change has to take place at different levels– right from the top policy makers and educational institutions, as well as individual lives, where women, people are making friends or the communities they are located in, their home environment, all of that.

00:42:49.130 --> 00:42:59.000
<v Shailaja> We have to see that we are working on different and multiple levels in order to talk about change.

00:43:04.170 --> 00:43:05.400
<v Vishesh> That's super, thank you so much.

00:43:07.620 --> 00:43:21.020
<v Vishesh> And vaguely moving towards our last few closing questions, through your journey in doing this work, what have been high key moments of surprise or intrigue?

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.350
<v Shailaja> A lot.

00:43:26.379 --> 00:43:28.509
<v Shailaja> But let me see, I'll just speak about a few.

00:43:30.109 --> 00:43:38.010
<v Shailaja> For me, so I mean, when I was working on education, so this was the first thing.

00:43:38.020 --> 00:43:58.830
<v Shailaja> For example, when many upper castes and including my friends they are in college because yes, I grew up in India and very much in the high politics of the Mandal Commission in the 1990s and the late 1980s and so on.

00:44:02.620 --> 00:44:15.450
<v Shailaja> wwhen people are talking about reservations and politics around it, but without paying attention to the history of discrimination and disadvantage.

00:44:16.099 --> 00:44:35.010
<v Shailaja> So that was very shocking to me as a person who experienced the system and at the same time was trying to navigate these different experiences.

00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:40.770
<v Shailaja> That was as I said, very shocking.

00:44:41.270 --> 00:44:51.760
<v Shailaja> The second was these statements that go around that there are a lot of reservations that people are not making use of them.

00:44:52.260 --> 00:45:01.980
<v Shailaja> So that again, we need to understand as to how the system itself is not working very effectively and people are not getting the benefits.

00:45:02.540 --> 00:45:17.330
<v Shailaja> When something is happening in the channel from the top to the bottom and that is a reason that people are not, they do know about these benefits or they're not able to avail of them at the right time.

00:45:17.779 --> 00:45:28.830
<v Shailaja> So that was something that these girls did not have, the important tools that are necessary, textbooks for studying.

00:45:33.080 --> 00:45:49.800
<v Shailaja> I mean, yes, I was certainly aware of the problems, but at the same time understanding the minute details of how things were actually taking place, I think that was very illuminating.

00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:58.500
<v Shailaja> The third was also how women are schooled and policed into patriarchal norms.

00:45:59.020 --> 00:46:27.760
<v Shailaja> So yes, certainly patriarchy is very much alive and very strong, but to actually see how it was operating in the household and as I said, and I'm repeating myself here, but this is important as to how women were schooled into and policed to follow these norms.

00:46:28.080 --> 00:46:45.200
<v Shailaja> Because once again, this is a socialization that's taking place and Dalits are looking at the groups that are dominant in the society, and they're the ones who are setting up these values.

00:46:45.580 --> 00:46:59.120
<v Shailaja> And so Dalits are trying to accommodate and at the same time resist these norms, but the burden of these models falls on women.

00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:19.700
<v Shailaja> And so during the interviews and this is again very important, that women were not able to voice their opinions, or they were not able to speak freely when they were surrounded by men, or to open up in presence of their husbands or other family members.

00:47:20.900 --> 00:47:23.209
<v Shailaja> So that really tells us a lot.

00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:33.030
<v Shailaja> It was quite challenging to speak and for the woman herself to voice her opinions.

00:47:33.700 --> 00:47:41.719
<v Shailaja> And for me as a researcher to navigate this as I was spending time with them.

00:47:41.719 --> 00:48:06.169
<v Shailaja> So that was something that it took long years for me also to understand how to approach women and their family members, and how to really get to their experiences and provide them or make that space safe enough for them to open up.

00:48:06.980 --> 00:48:12.860
<v Shailaja> So these were some of the challenges that I encountered.

00:48:13.080 --> 00:48:28.455
<v Shailaja> Women were also not very forthcoming about when they wanted to talk about the sexual harassment that they encountered at schools, so not many of them were very comfortable talking about it.

00:48:28.455 --> 00:48:30.060
<v Shailaja> And understandably so.

00:48:30.810 --> 00:48:35.640
<v Shailaja> So some of them did talk about it, but others were mostly silent.

00:48:36.049 --> 00:48:38.360
<v Shailaja> So these are some of the challenges that I came across.

00:48:42.980 --> 00:48:43.570
<v Vishesh> Thank you for sharing.

00:48:46.550 --> 00:49:19.200
<v Vishesh> Those feel like incredibly valuable things to keep in mind, especially for future researchers which steps close to I think last question which is, what are advice do you have for other people entering these research spaces, both from the perspective of grad students or newer researchers and even experienced researchers?

00:49:19.200 --> 00:49:30.829
<v Vishesh> Possibly, I think all of these different aspects like, people not from the community who are interested in these issues, people from the community, but who don't have enough research experience, what are things of advice you'd point to?

00:49:30.829 --> 00:49:30.859
<v Vishesh> Sure.

00:49:31.650 --> 00:49:31.950
<v Shailaja> Yeah.

00:49:32.260 --> 00:49:40.260
<v Shailaja> And this is again, certainly yes, I would like to share and this again comes from my own academic journey.

00:49:42.830 --> 00:50:14.640
<v Shailaja> And this is something that I have been writing about recently when I came across conversations where, non-Dalits shared with me that they found it difficult to conduct research on Dalits, and so they were challenged when they were trying to conduct research.

00:50:15.099 --> 00:50:28.580
<v Shailaja> And so I have written about this and this piece came out in the Economic and Political Weekly, this year in August or September, I'm forgetting the date, but it's Dalit Feminist Thought.

00:50:29.630 --> 00:50:59.609
<v Shailaja> I am arguing that non-Dalits can certainly contribute to this knowledge, but at the same time they need to be aware of the specific location of Dalits when they are trying to do this.

00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:11.250
<v Shailaja> And so that is where I invite different scholars, I mean, knowledge is not just a domain of a particular community or some individuals.

00:51:11.309 --> 00:51:28.620
<v Shailaja> And that for me, I said and I repeat, this is my position and different scholars from different communities and backgrounds should be free to pursue any pursuit of knowledge that they would like to.

00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:41.070
<v Shailaja> However, they need to be aware of the specific locations, experiences, and the ideas of Dalits for this matter.

00:51:41.600 --> 00:51:42.480
<v Shailaja> So that is one.

00:51:42.800 --> 00:52:15.580
<v Shailaja> Also, narrow readings of Dalits' histories and both the past and the present is something that may not be very useful and generative, so I want to invite both scholars and activists to read deeply and widely about what Dalits have had to say in the past and in the present.

00:52:16.120 --> 00:52:34.660
<v Shailaja> And be more attuned to and attentive to their ideas and their languages, instead of appropriating them and fitting them into this very narrow scholarly language and perspectives.

00:52:34.660 --> 00:52:50.520
<v Shailaja> And this is something that's happening to an extent, but reading through or working with different methods is very, very important for that matter.

00:52:51.180 --> 00:53:16.072
<v Shailaja> Also, I think in terms of future research and I've mentioned this in my work, but just for the sake of our conversation, more work is needed into for example, I mean, just looking at historically the different institutes of education that Ambedkar built or that Dalits have built.

00:53:16.072 --> 00:53:21.440
<v Shailaja> So for example, in terms of Ambedkar, the People's Education Society which has different branches and in different parts of the country.

00:53:21.450 --> 00:53:45.820
<v Shailaja> So students and scholars could look at those, there is much work to be done in education in schools and the villages, also education at different levels for Dalits, Adivasis for that matter.

00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:54.299
<v Shailaja> And so these are some of the realms in which we need more work.

00:53:54.299 --> 00:53:57.534
<v Vishesh> Terrific, that's sounds once again, extremely helpful, thank you.

00:53:57.534 --> 00:54:02.565
<v Vishesh> Yes, I think that is all I have for the core of the interview.

00:54:02.565 --> 00:54:37.960
<v Vishesh> Are there any other closing thoughts you feel like…to recontextualize, our grant money fundamentally is coming from the International Society of the Learning Sciences in which is based in the US and it centers mostly US, European scholars and work.

00:54:39.210 --> 00:55:03.800
<v Vishesh> This is mostly the onus is on us, but do you have any thoughts on what it would mean to translate this work or use the compilation work we are doing, but specifically your work as to what it makes sense in an American context or in other contexts outside of South Asia, but especially where South Asian still exist.

00:55:04.250 --> 00:55:20.960
<v Vishesh> And as we know casteism is happening in the US also in many different forms, do you have any thoughts on what this would mean for education research and education practices, not just in India?

00:55:22.270 --> 00:55:22.509
<v Shailaja> Yeah.

00:55:22.510 --> 00:55:38.920
<v Shailaja> I think as you mentioned, translation is very important and I'm not just talking about linguistic translation, but I am talking about translation at different levels.

00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:47.100
<v Shailaja> So yes, the scholarly audience, but I think just looking at and as you rightly mentioned the US context.

00:55:49.389 --> 00:56:05.139
<v Shailaja> For example, where we are located right now, and we are just seeing as to how caste discrimination recently with the Cisco case or the other news that we have from Hindu temples and so on.

00:56:05.600 --> 00:56:23.669
<v Shailaja> So when I'm saying translation, so making research and the outcomes of research, more accessible to an ordinary general public.

00:56:24.459 --> 00:56:41.839
<v Shailaja> How could that be done so that you bring that to a general public, so that they understand the way caste discrimination or gender, or racial discrimination is operating?

00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:56.570
<v Shailaja> I think that is important and that is something that projects like yours or other work which is focused on education could do.

00:56:56.580 --> 00:57:23.710
<v Shailaja> I have been involved in these small projects where I have been interviewed on a number of venues I mean, so that I could speak to a broader audience and is a reason I'm talking about it.

00:57:23.710 --> 00:57:38.700
<v Shailaja> So for example, you have these YouTube videos or some other nonprofit organizations who are now trying to connect the scholarly community with a larger popular audience.

00:57:39.720 --> 00:57:53.735
<v Shailaja> And the different ways that this could be done to make research and the work I'm doing or when others are investing more accessible, I think that is important.