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<v Vikas> My name is Vikas Maniar, and I teach at university in Bangalore, which is called Azim Premji University.

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<v Vikas> I teach in the School of Education.

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<v Gayithri> Yeah, now, we will definitely talk a lot of work that I'm excited about.

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<v Gayithri> So maybe just to give you a preamble, in this interview, we are simply interested in hearing your perspectives, practices and experiences of researching in India and Indian contexts.

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<v Gayithri> So in our larger project, we will definitely examine for patterns and differences across a variety of researchers who have explored teaching and learning in these kinds of contexts.

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<v Gayithri> Importantly, we want to deeply consider a variety of socio cultural groups and center educational equity in this work.

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<v Gayithri> In this spirit, we actively are seeking perspectives from minoritized groups and connections to important equity issues such as caste discrimination, LGBTQ lives, sexism, religious discrimination, indigenous epistemologies, decolonization and any other thing that comes inside this.

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<v Gayithri> So maybe we can start with a specific project that you've been working on, and we will get more broader as the interview progresses.

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<v Gayithri> So if you were to choose one specific project that either something that you've recently worked on or something that's representative, can you tell us a little about the geographic location, whom you work with, and the broader context in which this work happens?

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<v Vikas> Sure, I mean, I would focus on my doctoral work, which is now four years old, but that kind of is representative of the kind of interests I have.

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<v Vikas> I did work with rural community in what is called, in the state of Gujarat, on the border of Madhya Pradesh, which is another state in India, and this is a community of indigenous, or Adivasi people, as we call in India, and they are from a tribe called Rathwa.

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<v Vikas> And so that was my work that kind of, it's a rural setting, it's all Adivasi communities, they have a particular history, and they are in a particular geographical setting, which is remote, which has been somewhat isolated from the mainstream, or the communication of the mainstream has been restricted till about 18 or so.

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<v Vikas> And then it has kind of integrated very rapidly.

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<v Vikas> So that's the kind of setting that I was working in.

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<v Vikas> It was, my doctoral work was a comparative work.

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<v Vikas> So I did a similar kind of research with a Xhosa community in Eastern Cape, South Africa, very similar indigenous community.

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<v Vikas> I mean, very similar in the sense of parallel indigenous community.

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<v Vikas> And was trying to kind of compare and contrast how educational experiences are for these two communities.

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<v Gayithri> Interesting.

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<v Gayithri> So what got you interested about this specific context that you chose to work in?

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<v Vikas> So I've come to education, academics, and have segwayed into this, right?

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<v Vikas> I am not being somebody who's, as you can tell it from my beard, I'm a late bloomer in academics.

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<v Vikas> I came into education through NGO work, I worked in an organization called Akshara, which was my first formal introduction to education sector in India.

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<v Vikas> And before that, I had a very long corporate life, working with various kinds of corporates across the world actually.

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<v Vikas> And so, my interest in education was much more in the sense of doing something meaningful, trying to contribute back to the society etc.

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<v Vikas> But as I started engaging with communities, which were marginalized on...

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<v Vikas> Akshara works, the organization that I work for works with the government school system, the public school system in India, and it so happens that government schools are primarily accessed by people who cannot afford private schools.

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<v Vikas> It has a very large proportion of marginalized social groups attending.

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<v Vikas> And so when I was engaging with that work, it became very clear to me that one, I don't know enough about education to talk meaningfully about my experiences, other that the way education is being imagined, in official and international discourses, is somewhat disconnected to the lived realities of the people themselves.

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<v Vikas> And that drove me to questioning that on the relevance of education itself, the educational experience itself, and whether there were other ways of organizing this experience that is much more meaningful to the people I was working with.

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<v Vikas> And which then led to a journey.

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<v Vikas> I did my second master's in education, and then I did my doctoral work in education, and then I'm now teaching in a education setting.

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<v Vikas> So that was briefly motivation as I went along this journey to pursue this kind of research.

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<v Gayithri> Fantastic, would you want to maybe give me an example where you saw that disconnect with what education as a system was offering, and how it was conflicting or not matching up to the lived experiences of some of these marginalized communities?

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<v Gayithri> Because it just sounded so interesting.

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<v Vikas> So a very obvious thing that comes to mind and which is very popularly spoken about as well is this whole idea of the economic benefits of education, the education as a tool for economic mobility for the poor, for the marginalized.

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<v Vikas> In the Indian context, it was becoming, and, to my surprise, in South African context, as well, when I was there, it was becoming clear that that promise is not being fulfilled for many, many, many folks, you see, a large army of educated unemployed in India, partly not able to get any jobs, neither are able to start any other modes of livelihood.

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<v Vikas> And one gets a sense that in the process of this extended experience in schooling, they lose what they would have learned in the communities themselves.

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<v Vikas> And so I was getting increasingly concerned about those aspects.

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<v Vikas> But that's not all.

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<v Vikas> I mean, the political, the empowering effects of education, even ability or the promise of education to be multicultural, culturally inclusive those kinds of things to where we're not living up to the promise that was there in policies and so when I was spending time with these communities, and the students, I was getting increasingly concerned about the fact that, look, education is not really leading them to a better life.

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<v Vikas> That was the main promise of education.

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<v Gayithri> Interesting.

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<v Vikas> And in case of Adivasi communities, it becomes very difficult.

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<v Vikas> It's very different.

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<v Vikas> It's much more stark, because these Adivasi communities traditionally have been rural communities.

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<v Vikas> Slightly disconnected socially and economically from the mainstream society, as it were, and they have had a way of life that was self sustaining for a long time.

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<v Vikas> And education became particularly disruptive in their case, where you an extended education experience, disconnected them from their traditional ways of life, but did not kind of then formally establish them in this modern way of life where they could live happily or live a good life.

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<v Vikas> So those are the kinds of experiences that I can get into specifics as we go along.

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<v Vikas> But-

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<v Gayithri> Yeah, yeah, thank you.

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<v Gayithri> That was really helpful.

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<v Gayithri> So what have been some of the natural or easy ways, easy aspects of conducting research in this context.

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<v Gayithri> Anything around...

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<v Gayithri> You could share anything from funding to being able to partner or getting the buy in of your stakeholders anything.

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<v Vikas> I don't quite see anything that comes out to, jumps up as an easy, one of the easiest things that happened to me was the kind of welcome I got in the community.

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<v Vikas> So, it was very easy for me to mingle to become friendly or with the community that I worked with, was very welcoming and very open to share their perspectives.

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<v Vikas> Of course, there was this period of trust building, which one has to go through in any such research.

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<v Vikas> But once you go over that phase, it was a very, very nice experience to be part of that community for an extended period of time.

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<v Vikas> Other than that, I think one has to go through all kinds of issues of what a research like this would entail, which is what one has to do, right?

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<v Vikas> I mean, I won't categorize it as easy or hard in any which way.

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<v Gayithri> Yeah, that was not the intention, but we were just trying to get to some aspects of what it was.

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<v Gayithri> So maybe we can then jump into talking about some of the aspects that were more tricky, or challenging to specifically conduct research with the context that you've chosen.

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<v Vikas> Approvals were hard to come to access schools.

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<v Vikas> And more so for...

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<v Vikas> So in India, you have an education department, state education department that runs a certain set of schools, and then there is a tribal development department restaurants, another set of schools.

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<v Vikas> And so, while it was easy for me to get education department approvals, it took me some time to get the tribal department approvals to access schools.

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<v Vikas> Funding was non existent, I pretty much, I got a small grant from my institution, I got another little bit of funding from some other source, but most of it was self funded.

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<v Vikas> And so funding was pretty much.

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<v Vikas> And I could afford it because I had savings

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<v Gayithri> The corporate..

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<v Gayithri> job from the past

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<v Vikas> I had spent a lot of time at jobs and I had some savings, which I could use for this.

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<v Vikas> But for new researcher in the Indian context, I'm assuming that somebody coming from US or UK would have much more access to funds, then somebody an Indian researcher might have, but that becomes a problem.

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<v Vikas> Trying to locate the site was also a concern, I spent quite some time trying to identify a site where I could do this research, which would be true to the questions that I was asking, but also would be operationally feasible kind of setting.

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<v Vikas> Right.

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<v Vikas> So those are the top of the mind concerns that one has when one started working in this.

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<v Gayithri> So do you want to just share, one or two pieces for how you dealt with these challenges, because these are substantial challenges.

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<v Gayithri> It's almost existential for your research which were to happen.

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<v Gayithri> So.

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<v Vikas> So permission, I just started out in the government office, for weeks at a time, actually, I would just sit every day.

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<v Vikas> In the morning, I would land up in the office, nobody would take my phone calls, or emails are just not responded to.

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<v Vikas> So I would just spend time physically lined up in the office.

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<v Vikas> And it took me I think, three or four weeks to finally get that permission, because without an official permission, no school would allow me access despite the fact.

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<v Vikas> Scouting of the site, I did go through a lot of my network, I asked around quite a few people as to where can I do a research like that.

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<v Vikas> My guide, my PhD supervisor helped me a lot on this.

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<v Vikas> I reached out in to my NGO network, my old, not for profit network.

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<v Vikas> And in fact, the access that I got to this site was also through another NGO called Adivasi Academy, which operates in the same geography.

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<v Vikas> And so that was my entry into the site and then once I established myself, I did not need the help after some time.

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<v Vikas> So those are some of the ways I kind of managed, how to deal with these challenges, money, whatever I could get, I kind of try to get it.

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<v Vikas> And then self funded myself for the rest.

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<v Gayithri> Interesting.

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<v Gayithri> So maybe now we can broaden a little going, looking across your various projects or research projects.

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<v Gayithri> So can you describe your research more broadly?

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<v Gayithri> What kind of geographies are you trying to look at?

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<v Gayithri> What kind of populations are you trying to work with?

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<v Vikas> So I see myself interested in this question of educational experiences and outcomes for what I consider as socioeconomically marginalized communities, broadly.

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<v Vikas> I mean, that's the location of my research, that's the kind of question that interests me.

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<v Vikas> For the specific doctoral work that I was talking about, I did gravitate towards Adivasis as a social group, rural kind of a setting.

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<v Vikas> And basically asking the same question that does the promise of education to help prepare one for a good life and future, does that materialize or are there problems?

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<v Vikas> And then how does one make sense if there's a mismatch between the promise and the reality?

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<v Vikas> And those are the broad, broad kind of questions that I'm interested in researching.

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<v Gayithri> So thinking about theories that inform and shape your work, what are some words or thinkers or schools of thought that have influenced your thinking and your research?

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<v Vikas> So I started with the capability approach, initially, my first, I really got fascinated by the capability approach, in my early part of my doctoral work, and I thought it did focus our energy or our attention to the key questions I was asking, it was primarily asking this question of wellbeing and institutional arrangements that generate valued beings and doings as same concept.

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<v Vikas> And it also focuses our attention to institutional arrangements that deliver or that kind of facilitate or enable well being of individuals, and sometimes capability approaches extended to groups as well.

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<v Vikas> So groups too.

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<v Vikas> And, but as I progressed, I realized that well, I mean, it does ask you to, it does focus your attention in asking the right kind of questions that I was interested in.

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<v Vikas> Because these were the questions I was interested in the first place, that does education help these marginalized groups move on to a better life.

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<v Vikas> However, they consider that better life to be, right?

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<v Vikas> And capability approach pretty much asked that question and focused our energy attention to asking that question.

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<v Vikas> So I'm very attracted to capability approach as an approach to ask this question.

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<v Vikas> It moves away from these school effectiveness and school improvement and learning outcomes and those kinds of discourses, it asks a very fundamental question, is your life getting better because of education?

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<v Vikas> If not, then is it worth it?

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<v Vikas> I mean, that kind of question.

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<v Vikas> But then I realized that capabilities approached scholars have primarily used of imagination of a western context in their research.

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<v Vikas> And that's where I started asking this question as to oh, but how would capability approach look like in a post-colonial setting?

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<v Vikas> And how would you kind of implement research based on capability approach in a postcolonial setting?

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<v Vikas> And I did my dabbling with postcolonial theory for some time, and I realized that it's very interesting, but it's mainly focused on subjectivities and how subjectivities are produced.

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<v Vikas> Whereas I was always under the impression, or at least my anecdotal interactions with the communities that shown that it is not just the subjectivities, but materialities of the postcolonial context that matter as well.

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<v Vikas> So, it is a setting where there are no jobs, there is no industrialization, it is a setting, which is a mix of modernity and tradition, it is a setting where the state is still becoming capable to govern, right?

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<v Vikas> And all those matter in terms of how education shapes good life.

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<v Vikas> And so, it is not just about you have hybridity of subjectivity, or those kinds of things, it is some bit of subjectivity, of course, but it is also some bit of materiality.

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<v Vikas> And so, the second influence was post-colonial theory, but then I kind of pushed myself further into saying that, "Oh, no, I have to look at material contexts, post-colonial context as well, and then locate my work within that."

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<v Vikas> So that has been the strategy, I use ideas from capability approach, I use some ideas from post-colonial theory, but then I push it in the direction of looking at material contexts of post-colonial societies.

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<v Vikas> People have done that, I mean, it's not as if post-colonial contexts have not been written about, there are scholars who write about post-colonial contexts.

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<v Vikas> But in my work, I had realized that I pretty much had to imagine this issue to make sense of the context that I was in.

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<v Vikas> And, though, the scholarship on post-colonial context helped me to ask my questions in particular way, I had to substantially work, apply my mind to frame this question and to make sense of these realities.

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<v Vikas> Those are the broad influences I guess.

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<v Gayithri> Okay.

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<v Gayithri> That's good to know.

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<v Gayithri> So thinking about these different venues where you present and publish or even share your work.

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<v Gayithri> So can you tell us about what field or research community you actually locate your work in?

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<v Vikas> It's very collected, some of the international.

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<v Vikas> Gayithri, can you hear me?

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<v Gayithri> Yes, I think there has been a little bit of a lag.

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<v Gayithri> Sorry, I'm not sure what's happening.

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<v Vikas> Bad internet connection on my side as well.

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<v Vikas> Journals of comparative education and international education are talking about so for example, compare or comparative education, and other journals like those are have, especially the European comparative and international education journals have been talking about these issues, much more than some of the American ones.

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<v Vikas> And so I try to get, I'm trying to get myself published in some of those ones.

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<v Vikas> Other than that, I try to because I was looking at it from a very broad perspective.

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<v Vikas> So I was looking at theorisation, I was looking at policy implications.

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<v Vikas> And I was looking at some kind of an ethnography reality.

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<v Vikas> So I was looking at it from a very broad, I was trying to make sense of it, essentially.

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<v Vikas> So how does one look at it?

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<v Vikas> So I am also looking at communities that talk about educational theory and policy.

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<v Vikas> But mostly I see myself located in this competitive international kind of work on education.

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<v Gayithri> Perfect.

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<v Gayithri> Okay.

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<v Gayithri> So I think we've already kind of spoken about this, but then now again, trying to get a little beneath the scene, understanding of your work.

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<v Gayithri> So what actually motivated you to pursue these research interests?

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<v Gayithri> Rather, you could even answer by starting off for why you chose to be an educational researcher, and how did you come to where you are?

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<v Vikas> I didn't choose to be an education researcher at all.

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<v Vikas> I happen.

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<v Vikas> I just landed up being one, right?

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<v Vikas> So I think, as I said earlier, my journey has been a mid-career corporate guy trying to do something meaningful, and getting attracted to education work in a not for profit sector for some time, and through that another journey begins, which is basically asking these fundamental questions of, "Hey, is this working for the people that we are trying to serve?"

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<v Gayithri> Hello, Vikas?

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<v Gayithri> Are you there?

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<v Gayithri> So sorry, I like-

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<v Vikas> No, no.

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<v Vikas> It might be a problem at my end as well, because-

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<v Gayithri> Yeah, it could be here as well, we have no idea.

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<v Gayithri> Yeah.

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<v Gayithri> So.

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<v Vikas> I don't know, where did we cut off?

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<v Vikas> So let me repeat what I say, right?

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<v Vikas> I have come into education, from corporate through the not for profit sector.

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<v Vikas> And most of my academic questions were framed in the context of my working with those communities that I am researching, or I'm thinking about now.

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<v Vikas> And yeah, I mean, the whole educational researcher business came about because I was dissatisfied with the way I heard people talk about education for these communities.

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<v Gayithri> So maybe if I have to just ask you one more question, what made you make the transition from the corporate life to working with an NGO that was primarily education-based, or education focused?

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<v Gayithri> I know that so many reasons, including some personal that was

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<v Vikas> I guess it was doing something meaningful was essentially a midlife crisis is the best way to define it.

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<v Vikas> I was in my 40s, I was realizing I have to do something more meaningful than then be a cog in the corporate wheel, et cetera.

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<v Vikas> Education came in naturally, because one, I had been volunteering with education NGOs, while I was in my corporate life itself.

00:27:36.470 --> 00:27:44.389
<v Vikas> And for some reason, everybody thinks that they know education better than anything else, right?

00:27:46.030 --> 00:27:48.649
<v Vikas> In hindsight, it sounds so naive to say that.

00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:57.270
<v Vikas> But at that time, I was so full of confidence that I thought that I will be able to make a big difference by working in education.

00:27:59.740 --> 00:28:07.460
<v Vikas> But to my credit, I very quickly realized that I didn't know much, and soon started asking very fundamental questions.

00:28:08.820 --> 00:28:11.080
<v Vikas> Which then led me to this path where I am on.

00:28:11.770 --> 00:28:12.270
<v Gayithri> Fantastic.

00:28:12.549 --> 00:28:13.250
<v Gayithri> Yeah, sure.

00:28:14.370 --> 00:28:27.569
<v Gayithri> Because I was also told, at some point, when I started my master's in education, they were like, "Beware, people will always think that they know, or they have more to tell them what you think you know from all the books that you have had read."

00:28:30.230 --> 00:28:31.110
<v Gayithri> Yeah, sure.

00:28:31.530 --> 00:28:44.940
<v Gayithri> So have you thought about our work with respect to social issues in India or the communities that you work with, who do you think will of course benefit from your work?

00:28:45.700 --> 00:28:58.520
<v Gayithri> And how or in what ways does your research contribute to social justice, equity/inclusion, or anything else that you want to bring in here?

00:29:00.110 --> 00:29:12.460
<v Vikas> No, I think the way I see my research, or at least the things that I'm interested in asking or in trying to figure out the heart of it is the kind of questions that you're talking about.

00:29:12.630 --> 00:29:31.660
<v Vikas> And by asking this question in this way, saying, asking the question that how does any kind of schooling and education make life better or, for particular communities that are marginalized?

00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:34.199
<v Vikas> Is is a very political act.

00:29:34.570 --> 00:29:34.820
<v Vikas> Right?

00:29:35.270 --> 00:30:02.700
<v Vikas> It's a political act in itself, because it assumes that the onus of proving that education has really worked for these communities is on the people who claim that education works and not the communities that can be blamed, that they are not able to avail of education, the benefits of education because there is some deficit in the community.

00:30:03.210 --> 00:30:03.420
<v Vikas> Right?

00:30:03.860 --> 00:30:29.239
<v Vikas> And I see my work or at least the my interests squarely on asking questions which provoke or which demand answers on why these groups are not getting what the promises from education.

00:30:29.889 --> 00:30:41.379
<v Vikas> And if they are not getting it, then shouldn't education the way it is imagine change, rather than saying, "Hey, everything is all right."

00:30:42.580 --> 00:30:50.509
<v Vikas> Maybe the communities themselves are to blame, or maybe things will get, alright, eventually, this is a transition phase, et cetera, et cetera.

00:30:50.509 --> 00:30:54.449
<v Vikas> And people have these kinds of explanations of why things don't work.

00:30:55.139 --> 00:30:56.750
<v Vikas> And I reject that.

00:30:57.370 --> 00:31:08.010
<v Vikas> I want to ask, I want to say that it has not worked for six, seven decades, what gives you the confidence that it will work in the future?

00:31:08.650 --> 00:31:14.189
<v Vikas> And so you should start asking some fundamental questions about how we do education for different communities.

00:31:14.810 --> 00:31:21.590
<v Vikas> And in that sense, I see my work squarely in the social justice.

00:31:23.639 --> 00:31:24.229
<v Gayithri> Fantastic.

00:31:24.570 --> 00:31:43.350
<v Gayithri> So maybe because we are here do you want, if you want to draw from what you saw, from your groundwork, one or two key instances that kind of highlight and push for this call that you're calling for, would you want to take this opportunity to?

00:31:44.950 --> 00:31:54.030
<v Vikas> Experiences or which pushed me to think about this or how do I talk about it?

00:31:54.180 --> 00:31:55.409
<v Vikas> Can you rephrase the question?

00:31:55.470 --> 00:32:18.990
<v Gayithri> Sorry, sorry, if I was too convoluted, I was wondering if you want to draw from your observations on the ground to make a stronger case, if you want to quote or cite something that you saw as an instance, on when you were doing your fieldwork, and that kind of really pushes people to be not ignore your call?

00:32:20.330 --> 00:32:23.569
<v Vikas> Sure, let me take multiple, example two or three examples, right?

00:32:23.569 --> 00:32:32.649
<v Vikas> I mean, one, obviously is, and the way I kind of frame my questions is to ask economic questions, cultural questions, and political questions.

00:32:32.910 --> 00:32:35.180
<v Vikas> And let me try to give you examples of each.

00:32:35.410 --> 00:32:35.730
<v Gayithri> Okay.

00:32:37.360 --> 00:32:48.590
<v Vikas> So if you see the community that I work for, today, more than 80% are doing subsistence agriculture.

00:32:49.070 --> 00:32:55.849
<v Vikas> They do sell some of the produce, but it is small compared to what they consume themselves.

00:32:56.259 --> 00:32:56.489
<v Vikas> Right?

00:32:56.830 --> 00:33:09.830
<v Vikas> And most of the other money for survival comes from doing labor, manual labor in construction sites or other fields or, and this is all migratory labor.

00:33:09.830 --> 00:33:13.740
<v Gayithri> And you mean, this is the case in the communities that you work with?

00:33:13.930 --> 00:33:14.809
<v Vikas> Yes, yes, today.

00:33:15.110 --> 00:33:15.450
<v Gayithri> Thank you.

00:33:15.450 --> 00:33:15.940
<v Gayithri> Yeah, yeah.

00:33:15.980 --> 00:33:16.260
<v Gayithri> Okay.

00:33:16.850 --> 00:33:27.890
<v Vikas> And, so what's happening with a young person who's getting educated in the schools?

00:33:27.890 --> 00:33:35.639
<v Vikas> First of all, only about, say, 16%, 15, 16% of the students graduate from school.

00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:52.280
<v Vikas> 12th grade completion rates are just about 16, I mean 15, between 15 and 20%, some number, so less than 1/5, 1/6 graduate from school, but what has happened in the schooling experience of this 10 years or 12 years, if you have survived that?

00:33:54.219 --> 00:34:10.890
<v Vikas> Most of these children stay in residential schools, not most of them, many of them, or others attend, and it's a small number, but it's a very, it exemplifies the kind of problems that I'm talking about, right?

00:34:11.409 --> 00:34:13.740
<v Vikas> And many of them attend schools for extended hours.

00:34:14.630 --> 00:34:41.309
<v Vikas> What is happening in the processes, they lose their ability to engage with agriculture, in through the extended schooling and when they are educated, they are socialized into thinking that they have been prepared for a desk jobs, in government jobs or in private sector.

00:34:43.250 --> 00:34:52.420
<v Vikas> And so they have been now aspiring for jobs that are not physical work oriented.

00:34:52.429 --> 00:34:55.550
<v Vikas> They lose their ability to engage in agriculture.

00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:58.670
<v Vikas> And for many of them, it becomes very dysfunctional.

00:34:58.830 --> 00:35:11.650
<v Vikas> You see this whole group of educated youth who are simply wiling away time in the community looking for opportunities to engage, they won't go back to agriculture.

00:35:12.080 --> 00:35:15.690
<v Vikas> Because neither they are equipped, they don't want to do it.

00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:29.819
<v Vikas> And so what happens is they get caught, they get tapped in by politicians as their kind of enjoyment in the village, they get tapped in by the liquor lobby.

00:35:29.950 --> 00:35:34.079
<v Vikas> Gujarat is a dry state, you can't sell alcohol.

00:35:34.749 --> 00:35:36.460
<v Vikas> And so but there is a large-

00:35:36.469 --> 00:35:36.479
<v Gayithri> Underhand.

00:35:39.490 --> 00:35:42.730
<v Vikas> Underhand sale of liquor, they get tapped by those kinds of...

00:35:42.730 --> 00:35:52.140
<v Vikas> So they get sucked into this economy, which is prime economy, economy of corruption, and so forth.

00:35:52.140 --> 00:35:52.529
<v Vikas> Right?

00:35:52.660 --> 00:35:56.689
<v Vikas> Because they're educated, they don't get jobs of the kind that they want.

00:35:57.259 --> 00:36:07.090
<v Vikas> And they won't go back to the traditional occupations, the options that are left for them sometimes end up being pathological, dysfunctional options.

00:36:07.470 --> 00:36:09.860
<v Vikas> That's one kind of an example one can look for.

00:36:12.099 --> 00:36:14.620
<v Vikas> Let's look at a cultural political kind of an example.

00:36:16.459 --> 00:36:22.800
<v Vikas> The entire discourse of Adivasi communities in India is based on this idea of backwardness.

00:36:24.950 --> 00:36:32.510
<v Vikas> There is this local committee report which '60s, I might be off on my dates, but you can look at...

00:36:34.170 --> 00:36:41.610
<v Vikas> It basically says Adivasis are backward people and how do you identify backward people, they live in remote geographies.

00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:44.479
<v Vikas> They are not educated, they don't have...

00:36:45.919 --> 00:36:46.439
<v Vikas> And so forth.

00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:47.709
<v Vikas> This criteria.

00:36:48.170 --> 00:36:56.690
<v Vikas> And so the entire development discourse is premised on imagination of Adivasis being backward.

00:36:57.170 --> 00:36:58.960
<v Vikas> And there are progressive elements as well.

00:36:58.980 --> 00:37:10.599
<v Vikas> So, Elwin's work, Elwin Verrier's work and Nehru himself was a big advocate of that work, did talk of [inaudible] with Adivasi, right?

00:37:10.600 --> 00:37:21.879
<v Vikas> So, mutual respect of ways of life and not encroaching or not imposing the outside worldview on Adivasi communities, while giving them an option to integrate with the world.

00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:35.190
<v Vikas> So there's a very progressive perspective as well, but that does not find much evidence in policy discourse or development discourse, and that percolates down to schooling experiences.

00:37:35.470 --> 00:37:53.860
<v Vikas> So, you have teachers who are coming from mainstream or dominant communities, and they have this attitude of, "Oh, we are Sudrela, which is improved or developed, and these people are backward, Pachat."

00:37:54.080 --> 00:37:54.900
<v Vikas> Is the word, right?

00:37:55.690 --> 00:38:07.660
<v Vikas> And the entire relationship between the teachers and the students, the state and the community is gets colored by this imagination of backward.

00:38:07.660 --> 00:38:12.640
<v Vikas> In fact, one of the NGOs in the area is called [foreign language] right?

00:38:12.910 --> 00:38:15.880
<v Vikas> Which is a society for the service of the backward people.

00:38:16.240 --> 00:38:26.830
<v Vikas> So it is there that underlying assumption and what happens in that process is that people internalize it.

00:38:28.430 --> 00:38:40.369
<v Vikas> The young kids internalize this characterization of backwardness, and it has a very long term identity implication for the kids, right?

00:38:40.990 --> 00:38:47.130
<v Vikas> So that's the experience that modern schooling has on Adivasi communities.

00:38:47.550 --> 00:38:50.299
<v Vikas> Fortunately, it is not.

00:38:51.950 --> 00:38:55.880
<v Vikas> So this is the dark side of the schooling experience.

00:38:55.880 --> 00:39:17.500
<v Vikas> But the same schooling also produces young people who resist this tag of backwardness, this is simultaneous phenomena, there are people who have been concertized, who have been educated are essentially saying, "Look, we reject this backwardness tag.

00:39:17.530 --> 00:39:18.799
<v Vikas> We are different and equal.

00:39:19.580 --> 00:39:22.650
<v Vikas> We don't want to be called Hindu, we are not Hindu.

00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:24.900
<v Vikas> We are not like anybody else.

00:39:24.900 --> 00:39:26.650
<v Vikas> We have our ways of life.

00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:29.560
<v Vikas> But we are as modern as you are.

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.279
<v Vikas> Just that we have an alternate modernity."

00:39:32.860 --> 00:39:37.700
<v Vikas> And there's a very strong political mobilization around that kind of an idea.

00:39:38.370 --> 00:39:42.380
<v Vikas> So but that is happening more in the community than in the schools.

00:39:43.720 --> 00:39:43.860
<v Vikas> Right?

00:39:43.870 --> 00:39:56.750
<v Vikas> And so, these are the kinds of dilemmas or challenges that one sees when one experiences schooling of Adivasi communities in India.

00:39:58.530 --> 00:40:03.600
<v Vikas> And want us to question why that is happening and why would you start with the premise of backwardness?

00:40:04.250 --> 00:40:22.039
<v Vikas> Why would you not see the kind of work that has sustained them for centuries as worthwhile in the first place, particularly when you are uprooting them completely from those ways of life and not giving them alternate ways of life that are in any ways functional?

00:40:23.750 --> 00:40:24.199
<v Vikas> And so...

00:40:26.689 --> 00:40:28.709
<v Gayithri> That was definitely very deep.

00:40:28.799 --> 00:40:29.509
<v Gayithri> Thanks for that Vikas.

00:40:30.520 --> 00:40:40.390
<v Gayithri> So what ongoing efforts led by researchers, other researchers in India are you particularly excited about if we were to start thinking about like, the future directions?

00:40:41.030 --> 00:40:49.770
<v Vikas> Another, I think I was inspired by them is the Jeffrey's.

00:40:49.810 --> 00:40:53.090
<v Vikas> Patricia Jeffrey, Roger Jeffery, and I forget the third name.

00:40:54.410 --> 00:40:59.019
<v Vikas> They have worked extensively in digital with Dalit youth.

00:40:59.019 --> 00:41:07.210
<v Vikas> And when I was doing my master's in education, I'd read their work and it had really left a strong impression on me.

00:41:08.180 --> 00:41:09.910
<v Vikas> They continue to work in India.

00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:14.040
<v Vikas> And heir work is really fascinating.

00:41:14.179 --> 00:41:17.290
<v Vikas> They asking very similar questions of what happens to...

00:41:19.980 --> 00:41:22.894
<v Vikas> Other than researchers, I think I'm more attracted to these experiments by not for profits around very contextual education, and almost a reimagineation of education.

00:41:22.894 --> 00:41:46.520
<v Vikas> For example, there is a school in Madhya Pradesh called Adharshila, which re imagines this idea of education for Adivasi communities.

00:41:47.090 --> 00:41:59.169
<v Vikas> There are similarly many experiments are happening at the grassroots that ask these questions, and then reimagine what education means for different marginalized communities.

00:41:59.169 --> 00:42:16.120
<v Vikas> And I particularly find them very exciting, I particularly find that they allow for insights, that many of the traditional research scholarship is not allowing for or not producing.

00:42:16.699 --> 00:42:21.770
<v Vikas> And there is a certain degree of freedom in that.

00:42:22.680 --> 00:42:30.480
<v Vikas> Because one senses, I was a late academic, I was not doing it for money, or career path or whatever.

00:42:31.009 --> 00:42:42.550
<v Vikas> And so I could choose a topic where I didn't have to worry about whether I fit into an academic discipline, whether I will be accepted in the academy community, whether I'll get published.

00:42:43.460 --> 00:42:45.670
<v Vikas> Really that was not what was driving me.

00:42:45.670 --> 00:42:52.340
<v Vikas> What was driving me was these questions that I had, which I was worried about, or which I was concerned about answering.

00:42:53.039 --> 00:43:05.529
<v Vikas> And one senses that the current structure of the academy community forces you to box yourself in the kind of silos that we have created for ourselves.

00:43:06.150 --> 00:43:19.180
<v Vikas> And so I find a lot more interesting work happening with these initiatives on the ground then in some of the research, not to say that this research is not that many people doing it, but they're far less than one would expect.

00:43:19.450 --> 00:43:23.809
<v Vikas> These are some fundamental questions that are not getting in my view the attention that they should get.

00:43:25.359 --> 00:43:31.489
<v Gayithri> So Vikas, you spoke about like, yes, there is also research out there, but maybe not as much.

00:43:31.779 --> 00:43:50.107
<v Gayithri> So what do you think are some of the key research areas in the subcontinent currently, that are being asked that are being looked at more closely?

00:43:50.107 --> 00:43:52.740
<v Vikas> Most of the research today is not happening in this mode, right?

00:43:52.970 --> 00:44:19.870
<v Vikas> These kinds of questions, most of the research we have working extensively doing RCTs we have, most of the research is happening in this western frame, epistemic frame, asking questions about learning objectives or asking questions about accountability and that kind of stuff.

00:44:25.250 --> 00:44:27.500
<v Vikas> Yeah, I mean, that's good.

00:44:28.460 --> 00:44:35.219
<v Vikas> Very nice to do, but doesn't excite me as much as the kind of questions I'm asking.

00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:49.720
<v Vikas> So I'm much more interested in questioning the institution of education itself, rather than figuring out how will the education system be more efficient and effective in what it does?

00:44:52.070 --> 00:44:59.900
<v Vikas> And the very few people who are doing this, as I mentioned Jeffery's, as one comes immediately to mind because I'm so impressed by them.

00:45:00.799 --> 00:45:03.190
<v Vikas> But there are others as well who do this kind of work.

00:45:03.540 --> 00:45:08.549
<v Vikas> And much of it is done in the qualitative ethnographic study kind of a mode.

00:45:09.630 --> 00:45:10.070
<v Gayithri> Sure.

00:45:10.200 --> 00:45:19.830
<v Gayithri> So I think we are in the perfect place to then start thinking about what kinds of work do you want to see more of moving forward.

00:45:20.180 --> 00:45:27.370
<v Gayithri> If you want to point out any frameworks or methods or epistemologies, you wish were more prevalent in the field?

00:45:28.670 --> 00:45:33.140
<v Vikas> Yeah, clearly looking at post-colonial societies as a unique context.

00:45:34.710 --> 00:45:42.305
<v Vikas> And not starting with this assumption that what has worked in the western context will directly work in post-colonial societies.

00:45:43.020 --> 00:45:46.430
<v Vikas> I mean, that's clearly something that I would like to see more.

00:45:47.059 --> 00:45:52.069
<v Vikas> And this is there in every, not just education, but everywhere.

00:45:52.070 --> 00:46:14.859
<v Vikas> So for example, other group of researchers, not educational researchers, but social science researchers are CSDs in Delhi, and many of them Praqma and others are asking this question as to how do we make sense of the context in India or the context in global south of the post-colonial world?

00:46:15.870 --> 00:46:30.560
<v Vikas> And which may necessarily, not necessarily mean picking up frameworks and epistemologies from the west and applying it here, but trying to make sense of the context on its own terms, right?

00:46:31.040 --> 00:46:36.930
<v Vikas> And I think we need to do more and more of that.

00:46:36.930 --> 00:46:50.940
<v Vikas> Because useful as the current ways of looking or Western epistemologies are, they are somewhat limited in making sense of the world that I live in.

00:46:52.400 --> 00:47:04.819
<v Vikas> And I would really like to see more and more people asking this question of how do we make sense of the context in their own terms and not use borrowed ways of looking at things.

00:47:06.750 --> 00:47:10.900
<v Vikas> Yeah, that would be my major interest.

00:47:11.410 --> 00:47:34.020
<v Vikas> The other interest is to look for education, the institution of education, and ask this core question, because good life ,well being has been this overarching promise that if you get educated, you will lead a good life, if you don't get educated, your life will be miserable or not as satisfying.

00:47:34.590 --> 00:47:35.970
<v Vikas> Yeah, that's the promise.

00:47:36.339 --> 00:47:39.730
<v Vikas> That's the way it is being sold to us.

00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:54.214
<v Vikas> But it is not working out that way for a majority of the population in the post-colonial society.

00:47:54.214 --> 00:47:57.285
<v Vikas> And so then you have to ask that question.

00:47:57.285 --> 00:47:59.129
<v Vikas> Why is it not working?

00:47:59.129 --> 00:48:00.810
<v Vikas> And introspect on the way we are arranging the institution of education, and figure out why it is not working and change it to make it work for people.

00:48:01.100 --> 00:48:02.749
<v Vikas> So that's another kind of thing.

00:48:03.149 --> 00:48:06.042
<v Vikas> And the timing has to be not asking.

00:48:06.042 --> 00:48:06.511
<v Gayithri> Perfect.

00:48:06.980 --> 00:48:11.710
<v Gayithri> So what advice would you have for newcomers to educational research in India?

00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:21.799
<v Gayithri> Maybe if you can have the, for somebody who is like really far into the context even.

00:48:21.799 --> 00:48:22.490
<v Vikas> That's a tough one.

00:48:22.490 --> 00:48:28.802
<v Vikas> Let me tell, let me answer this in a different way.

00:48:28.802 --> 00:48:29.376
<v Vikas> Right.

00:48:29.950 --> 00:48:32.029
<v Vikas> Let me tell you my experiences in South Africa.

00:48:32.570 --> 00:48:38.250
<v Vikas> And that will kind of draw a parallel to what somebody who's not from India coming in researching.

00:48:41.950 --> 00:48:48.429
<v Vikas> I think the amount of time it took me and I have not done it perfectly by any means.

00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:56.339
<v Vikas> But at least I realized that it was an important thing for me to do was to make sense of the context.

00:48:57.730 --> 00:49:11.979
<v Vikas> The historical, economic, political, cultural context of the larger society and the community that you're working with took a substantial amount of effort and time.

00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:20.060
<v Vikas> And that was the background homework that I thought I did, but I did not do well enough.

00:49:20.849 --> 00:49:23.519
<v Vikas> I could have done it way better.

00:49:23.870 --> 00:49:27.610
<v Vikas> I did read quite a bit before I landed up in scape.

00:49:28.949 --> 00:49:41.340
<v Vikas> But despite that, I struggled a lot and I would advise anybody who wants to do that, to spend substantial amount of time talking to people from the context, read about it, et cetera.

00:49:42.370 --> 00:49:59.620
<v Vikas> The other thing that I have learned in the process of this research is that I had to constantly work to bridge the immediate divide, right?

00:49:59.700 --> 00:50:12.390
<v Vikas> I mean, The person who's studied and the person who's studying without losing my objectivity as a researcher, that's a tough thing.

00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:25.680
<v Vikas> How do you not come across as this super educated PhD from outside who's studying us as lab rats.

00:50:26.490 --> 00:50:33.910
<v Vikas> And come across as a person who is one amongst us no different.

00:50:34.460 --> 00:50:42.089
<v Vikas> Eats like us, sleeps like us, spends time, enjoys laughs with us kind of a thing.

00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:46.210
<v Vikas> And that took quite a bit of effort on my part.

00:50:46.480 --> 00:51:02.310
<v Vikas> And so this whole issue of not coming from this pedestal of knowledge, or oh, I'm here to study you is another thing that worked for me.

00:51:02.770 --> 00:51:04.363
<v Vikas> I'm not sure how many people do it.

00:51:04.600 --> 00:51:06.080
<v Vikas> But I found it challenging.

00:51:07.250 --> 00:51:09.439
<v Vikas> And I really worked hard at that.

00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:22.990
<v Vikas> And both my sites, and that paid off handsomely, not just from the research perspective from having very good personal memories and relationships from that experience.

00:51:23.600 --> 00:51:33.590
<v Vikas> Even I still, and obviously, like any other researcher would, I still do talk to the people that I spent time where they consider me as their friend, and so forth.

00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:41.299
<v Vikas> And that really helped me to get their unadulterated perspective of life, right?

00:51:41.340 --> 00:51:57.929
<v Vikas> It was not something that they would otherwise filter, I mean, if you are a researcher going and asking questions, randomly without building this rapport, this sphere of trust, you would get one kind of answers.

00:51:57.929 --> 00:52:03.580
<v Vikas> And I could see the answers change, I spent some three, four or five months in the community, and there were two schools.

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<v Vikas> And in the initial days, I lined up into school, the entire school will perform for me, yeah, teachers would behave in a particular way, the principal's would behave in a particular way, students would be in alert and stuff.

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<v Vikas> And over a period of time, as I got friendly, they realize that, I mean, no harm, I can, and that kind of stuff, is when I really started seeing the processes and the dynamics that were happening in the school, for whatever, all the processes and dynamics in the community for whatever, I guess those are the kind of challenges, researchers from outside would face if they work in India.

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<v Vikas> Apart from copious ones, managing the red tape and that kind of stuff.