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<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, in this interview, we're simply interested in hearing about your perspectives and practices and experiences in the larger project.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani> We're looking at patterns and differences in how a variety of researchers have explored teaching and learning in diverse Indian contexts.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Importantly, we want to deeply consider a wide variety of sociocultural groups and center educational equity in this work, so we actively seek perspectives from minoritized groups and connections to important equity issues, such as caste discrimination, LGBTQ+ lives, sexism, religious discrimination, indigenous epistemologies, and decolonization.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And I say all of that to say, that's the larger trajectory of this work, but also that you shouldn't feel like you have to talk to all of those issues.

00:00:37.649 --> 00:00:44.320
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Please feel free to just speak to what you are thinking about and working on, and the larger project will hopefully paint that picture.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta> Okay.

00:00:45.760 --> 00:00:47.140
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Okay, so shall we dive right in?

00:00:48.060 --> 00:00:48.300
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta> What do you want me to start with?

00:00:50.029 --> 00:00:54.750
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, let's start by talking about a specific project you're working on, maybe your current project, or-

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<v Chandan Dasgupta> Okay.

00:00:58.390 --> 00:00:58.660
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> ...specific to India.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah, I’ll talk about, so just to set the context, I'll talk about two projects.

00:01:04.210 --> 00:01:06.790
<v Chandan Dasgupta> One is not research focused.

00:01:07.030 --> 00:01:14.140
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's more of, we call it consultancy project here, like a sponsor...

00:01:14.150 --> 00:01:17.529
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's sort of a sponsored project, not a consultancy.

00:01:17.589 --> 00:01:23.440
<v Chandan Dasgupta> An organization had sponsored this project, and I'm the co-PI on that project.

00:01:24.820 --> 00:01:27.579
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But there's no research angle to it yet.

00:01:28.129 --> 00:01:37.540
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's mostly like answering a demand in the educational technology, evolving educational technology market right now.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta> And then after that, I'll talk about one research project.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I think both of those would help you set the context for the rest of the conversation.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Love it.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, the first part I was talking about the sponsored project, that's called...

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<v Chandan Dasgupta> That's sponsored by this group called CSF, Central Square Foundation, and it's related to evaluating educational technology products in the Indian market.

00:02:10.190 --> 00:02:26.400
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And the reason why it came into existence was that, especially with the lockdown, but even up to the lockdown, the interest around the educational technology and its use in classroom had been growing.

00:02:26.869 --> 00:02:40.730
<v Chandan Dasgupta> There were a lot of companies coming up in this space, and especially with the lockdown that threw everyone into this position that they had to adopt it, whether they liked it or not.

00:02:41.649 --> 00:02:45.060
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, then the question was, which one do we select?

00:02:45.799 --> 00:02:52.899
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And there wasn't a clear way to reach that answer or a clear systematic way to answer that question.

00:02:53.579 --> 00:03:06.450
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's when CSF proposed this project that we need to give a level playing field to all the stakeholders across different parts of India.

00:03:06.450 --> 00:03:10.219
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, these are government stakeholders, principals, schools, as well as parents.

00:03:10.850 --> 00:03:16.510
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And all of them would have their own requirements in terms of what they would be looking for from the product.

00:03:16.519 --> 00:03:28.170
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, there was a need to give them this information in a freely accessible and a, sort of, standardized way, which they can use to make their decisions.

00:03:28.760 --> 00:03:31.119
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that was the origin of this project.

00:03:31.950 --> 00:03:58.620
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, we were brought into the loop, and we are currently working on creating one instrument that gets started off as one instrument, but it has become a multi-pronged instrument, which has multiple versions and multiple ways of using the instruments to evaluate different ed tech products.

00:03:59.190 --> 00:04:18.719
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, currently we are starting with one type of ed tech product, personalized adaptive learning, and then we'll move into DCRs, the digital classroom products, and probably going to game-based learning as well.

00:04:18.719 --> 00:04:19.303
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Nationwide, is it?

00:04:19.303 --> 00:04:19.692
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Nationwide, yes.

00:04:19.692 --> 00:04:20.665
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's the ultimate goal.

00:04:20.859 --> 00:04:42.659
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, right now, we've signed up for a two-year contract with the company, with CSF, but we are doing our due diligence in terms of trying to come up with this index and trying to validate and establish its reliability as well.

00:04:43.559 --> 00:04:54.929
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And there's also a huge pull right now from the governments because they are in the process of tendering and seeking out these ed tech products as we speak.

00:04:55.529 --> 00:05:04.829
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, we are also training the government on how to do these evaluations on their own using this index, the current version of the index.

00:05:05.389 --> 00:05:20.969
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, it's a bit of a balancing act, where we are developing the index while trying to establish its validity and reliability, which is not really the main concern of the stakeholders who want to use it immediately.

00:05:22.089 --> 00:05:26.830
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, we are also trying to train them on using this index.

00:05:27.520 --> 00:05:30.429
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, there's a training session that's happening as well.

00:05:30.869 --> 00:05:42.049
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And currently, we are working with one state right now in India, and they have their own requirements of what type of products they're looking for and whatnot.

00:05:43.220 --> 00:05:48.179
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But the index we have tried to create is applicable at a pan-India level.

00:05:50.709 --> 00:05:53.189
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, it's a series of questions that you ask about the product, is it?

00:05:53.189 --> 00:05:59.730
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's a series of questions, a series of criteria focusing on content, pedagogy, and technology.

00:05:59.730 --> 00:06:02.689
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, those are three broad constructs which form the index.

00:06:03.289 --> 00:06:09.189
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And then within those, there are multiple criteria to develop different dimensions of the product design.

00:06:09.669 --> 00:06:12.980
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, we are approaching product design from these three dimensions.

00:06:13.750 --> 00:06:26.710
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And, once we break it down across all these criteria, then we're trying to aggregate the evaluation and then give a report back to whoever is interested to use the report.

00:06:27.710 --> 00:06:39.029
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And then, since the adoption is becoming a very critical issue right now, whoever wants to use the index, we are training them as well to use it in parallel.

00:06:39.750 --> 00:06:51.510
<v Chandan Dasgupta> The only trick there is that we are looking for subject matter experts to use the index in a proper way, which is not really possible all the time for a team to have.

00:06:53.020 --> 00:06:56.579
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's the ongoing balancing act that's going on.

00:06:57.529 --> 00:07:11.539
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But we are also realizing all the nuances that are there in terms of the different needs from a student's perspective, like rural students would have a different kind of need from a software product than urban students.

00:07:12.039 --> 00:07:13.620
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Can you talk a little bit more about that?

00:07:13.679 --> 00:07:14.139
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah.

00:07:14.139 --> 00:07:27.470
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, we have tried to factor that in a little bit, but we realize that none of the products are designed to pay attention to that sort of difference between the urban and rural needs.

00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:31.340
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And even in our team, none of us are...

00:07:31.449 --> 00:07:48.100
<v Chandan Dasgupta> None of us can call ourself experts in that sort of research-based understanding, because we have mostly worked with urban students in our projects till now.

00:07:48.840 --> 00:08:01.900
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And mostly, before I came into the department, majority of the student population that were part of the research study were college students in Mumbai.

00:08:01.900 --> 00:08:02.195
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And perhaps a little bit outside Mumbai as well, but mostly tier one places.

00:08:02.195 --> 00:08:19.380
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, now we are talking about tier two and tier three places, which are in a different context, have a different set of resources available to them.

00:08:20.049 --> 00:08:35.400
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I think even this project for us is a big learning opportunity to try to connect with that population and try to learn from them and also try to educate ourselves in what is it that they need from this index.

00:08:36.490 --> 00:08:36.850
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah.

00:08:36.870 --> 00:08:38.399
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I really appreciate what you're saying.

00:08:38.400 --> 00:08:47.119
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I feel like that is so often the case, that wherever the university is, it's that population that is the one that we know the most about, of course, which is...

00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:49.869
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Of course, happens, for various reasons.

00:08:50.149 --> 00:08:50.719
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah.

00:08:51.079 --> 00:08:53.050
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I'll speak for myself a little bit more.

00:08:53.290 --> 00:09:00.459
<v Chandan Dasgupta> My handicap right now is that since I moved to India 2017, so it's just been three years and a few months now.

00:09:01.920 --> 00:09:07.939
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And because I moved continents and I am not from this city, I wasn't born and brought up in Mumbai-

00:09:08.300 --> 00:09:08.880
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Where did you...

00:09:09.079 --> 00:09:10.079
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Where were you raised?

00:09:10.140 --> 00:09:11.569
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I was born and brought up in Delhi.

00:09:12.430 --> 00:09:15.990
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, it's a entirely different cultural upbringing there.

00:09:16.530 --> 00:09:18.410
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And my family is from West Bengal.

00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.630
<v Chandan Dasgupta> That's another different context completely.

00:09:22.189 --> 00:09:24.810
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, it's understanding how people work here.

00:09:25.189 --> 00:09:27.969
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's a different work environment as well.

00:09:28.709 --> 00:09:39.670
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And, at the same time, trying to understand how to do research in this environment, and also working my way through the deliverables.

00:09:39.670 --> 00:09:45.390
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Some of them are explicitly laid out in terms of what counts for promotion and some of them are not.

00:09:47.599 --> 00:10:01.999
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And there's a difference between what I've been trained to expect in the US and what's expected from me in India in terms of what counts towards promotion and what counts towards good research.

00:10:04.209 --> 00:10:12.259
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I think negotiating those spaces for me has been a learning curve in itself.

00:10:12.260 --> 00:10:31.430
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I'm at this place where only now I've started to become or feel a little bit comfortable to delve more into the research part without worrying about all the other aspects of trying to fit in, in this community.

00:10:31.660 --> 00:10:34.386
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And you've been at IIT for three years now, is it?

00:10:34.589 --> 00:10:35.179
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Right, yeah.

00:10:35.349 --> 00:10:35.579
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Right.

00:10:36.160 --> 00:10:43.869
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, that's really interesting, and I want to talk more about those differences and how they shape how we should think about research.

00:10:43.870 --> 00:10:44.720
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, maybe it's...

00:10:45.469 --> 00:10:51.579
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, you said you were telling us about both that ed tech project and research project, so-

00:10:51.639 --> 00:11:00.689
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Right, so the other project which I wanted to talk about is the core of my research work right now.

00:11:01.160 --> 00:11:04.540
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's focusing on collaborative uncertainty management.

00:11:05.180 --> 00:11:06.610
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that topic-

00:11:06.630 --> 00:11:09.310
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> You said collaborative uncertainty management?

00:11:09.570 --> 00:11:10.199
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Right, yeah.

00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:11.220
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> That sounds interesting.

00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:12.149
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah.

00:11:12.549 --> 00:11:13.749
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And this is...

00:11:14.389 --> 00:11:27.489
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I started looking at it specifically in the context of engineering design, but as I added students to my group, I've spread out a bit and looking at science education as well.

00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:40.239
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And there has been some work on uncertainty management, especially in the science education, but I haven't seen this yet in the engineering education area yet.

00:11:40.849 --> 00:11:52.510
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's what my focus is right now, trying to understand how to leverage this uncertainty management process to learn science and engineering concepts.

00:11:52.850 --> 00:12:02.410
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, is uncertainty management in engineering when you are uncertain of what's going to happen and you have to manage that in your current design, is it?

00:12:02.660 --> 00:12:03.860
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah, that's part of it.

00:12:03.860 --> 00:12:15.210
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, a little bit more nuanced way of thinking about it could be that when you're working with engineering problems, those are open ended and ill-structured in themselves.

00:12:15.769 --> 00:12:32.070
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But then when you're working in a group, that adds that social uncertainty as well, where you're trying to negotiate the space with another person or another set of people, and trying to collaboratively figure out how to work through this ill-structured problem.

00:12:32.740 --> 00:12:39.620
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, there's the content uncertainty, and there's the social uncertainty or the relational uncertainty as well.

00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:44.729
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And both of those are interacting with each other as the problem solving happens.

00:12:45.580 --> 00:12:49.749
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I'm still learning about the space.

00:12:50.330 --> 00:12:54.630
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And two of my students right now are working on this.

00:12:56.100 --> 00:12:57.170
<v Chandan Dasgupta> They're in their third year.

00:12:57.599 --> 00:13:04.310
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, one is focusing on engineering education, another one is focusing on chemistry education.

00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:07.050
<v Chandan Dasgupta> That's a little bit different scenario.

00:13:07.890 --> 00:13:18.420
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, are these naturalistic studies, observational studies, or are they design based research studies?

00:13:18.420 --> 00:13:18.711
<v Chandan Dasgupta> They're design based research.

00:13:18.711 --> 00:13:20.709
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I'll talk a little bit about the data collection also.

00:13:20.709 --> 00:13:22.779
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I saw that you had a couple of questions related to that.

00:13:22.939 --> 00:13:34.829
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But yeah, broadly, that's the focus right now, where we are trying to understand what sort of mechanism is involved in the uncertainty management and how do we...

00:13:35.990 --> 00:13:36.330
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Sorry.

00:13:37.090 --> 00:13:45.810
<v Chandan Dasgupta> How do we leverage this process for learning, and what else scaffolds can we put in place, and what sort of environment can we design for students?

00:13:46.479 --> 00:14:01.400
<v Chandan Dasgupta> To not really ignore or suppress the uncertainty, both from a teacher and student perspective, but maintain it and be comfortable with it and use it towards our learning our goals.

00:14:02.090 --> 00:14:02.380
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah.

00:14:02.790 --> 00:14:20.700
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, maybe as, to what you were just saying, can you tell us a little bit about the geographic location or the social context of those studies with whatever specificity is appropriate, and why, what interested you about working with that particular group or in that particular place or with that specific content...

00:14:21.939 --> 00:14:22.670
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Context, rather.

00:14:23.229 --> 00:14:23.449
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Right.

00:14:24.189 --> 00:14:34.870
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, till now, the target demographic has been more of a convenient sample, where I worked with middle school students.

00:14:38.250 --> 00:14:44.349
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, one set of data is coming from a school which is within IIT, Bombay.

00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:52.469
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's Kendriya Vidyalaya, so it's a central government CBSE board school.

00:14:53.420 --> 00:14:59.140
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And there, we have done one round of data collection in the science classroom, grade six.

00:14:59.140 --> 00:15:06.650
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And this set is coming from a set of workshops that we did with, again, grade six to grade eight students.

00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:15.449
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But then these students were students of faculty members, of staff within IIT.

00:15:15.459 --> 00:15:27.319
<v Chandan Dasgupta> They did go to schools which are outside the campus or outside IIT Bombay, but all of them have this common thread of them being present on-site campus.

00:15:27.889 --> 00:15:37.169
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that has been more of a convenient sample for me, because they were easy to get hold of.

00:15:39.709 --> 00:15:46.959
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, in terms of the diversity, I would say it's not really diverse and it's a biased and skewed sample.

00:15:46.959 --> 00:15:58.610
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But I'm trying to work my way through the school system here and trying to build a relationship with the schools here, because part of the challenge is that...

00:15:58.880 --> 00:16:11.530
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, one is to convince them that this is an ethically-conducted research, and we are using the video just for research.

00:16:12.959 --> 00:16:24.520
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And a related thing with that is that people here are not very comfortable with cameras in the classroom, especially for a research perspective.

00:16:25.760 --> 00:16:28.880
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Cameras in the classroom would mean a different thing.

00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:34.880
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Maybe it's more of a journalistic thing than a class thing.

00:16:34.890 --> 00:16:47.980
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, making the school or the classroom used to that, and also trying to tackle the ethics part of it, because there wasn't...

00:16:48.229 --> 00:16:53.110
<v Chandan Dasgupta> There isn't still a very rigorous ethics clearance thing to it.

00:16:53.759 --> 00:17:00.789
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I think this is part of the process where the ethics board was set up mainly to handle biological research.

00:17:01.729 --> 00:17:09.419
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And slowly, with more and more educational and social science research, they've been evolving and the processes are changing as well.

00:17:09.999 --> 00:17:18.889
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I'm currently part of one new ethics board, which is coming up in IIT, Bombay, which is specifically designed for social science research.

00:17:19.589 --> 00:17:35.710
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, we are trying to make the process simpler and much more open to social science research and not very discouraging of the different things which are typically the case in biological ethics clearance process.

00:17:37.249 --> 00:17:38.019
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, it's...

00:17:38.889 --> 00:17:39.229
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Go ahead.

00:17:40.219 --> 00:17:42.639
<v Chandan Dasgupta> No, I think I went on a tangent there.

00:17:42.820 --> 00:17:43.850
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> No, I think you were...

00:17:43.959 --> 00:17:49.780
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> It's really interesting to hear about those specific challenges because in some sense, some of them are...

00:17:50.550 --> 00:18:00.329
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Obviously, they're specifically situated, but they're also something universal about building trust with whoever it is, and people's suspicion about video cameras and all.

00:18:00.749 --> 00:18:12.389
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Are there other challenges that have happened in terms of conducting research in this context that you'd like to talk about in terms of maybe getting funding or sharing your work or building that trust, or do you feel like you've said the big ones?

00:18:14.469 --> 00:18:16.870
<v Chandan Dasgupta> From a research perspective, I said the big ones.

00:18:16.879 --> 00:18:34.729
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, funding here, and that speaks to the way the expectations are set up, is that getting funds is not really the main focus of being here or being present here as a faculty.

00:18:35.340 --> 00:18:41.989
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's predominantly teaching, publishing papers, and then guiding PhD students.

00:18:42.550 --> 00:18:51.409
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that is part of the way the system is designed, where the funding comes from the central government.

00:18:53.149 --> 00:19:00.860
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that takes care of students' funding and students' work that they're doing.

00:19:02.250 --> 00:19:15.540
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I have tried my hand at a couple of funding agencies and granting agencies, both government and private, but I haven't had success with them yet.

00:19:16.969 --> 00:19:26.790
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I'm still trying to understand what sort of expectations they have, because educational research is still very new in India.

00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:32.189
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And people don't know what learning sciences is.

00:19:32.669 --> 00:19:58.989
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Educational technology, that's the name of the department that I'm in, that's somewhat more recognized than learning sciences, but as such, the discipline or the area of research, the kind of work that gets submitted for funding is not very mainstream core engineering research that is typically expected by different funding agencies.

00:19:59.789 --> 00:20:05.070
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And it's not also cognitive science, which is a more established domain here.

00:20:05.080 --> 00:20:13.919
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, it's all negotiating that space and trying to understand how to frame the research to get through the funding agencies.

00:20:15.509 --> 00:20:18.749
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's part of the challenge that I'm trying to work through.

00:20:20.969 --> 00:20:21.319
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah.

00:20:21.320 --> 00:20:36.370
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> It seems like simply establishing not only educational research, but also specifically the kind of educational research that is really common in the learning sciences, video-based, semi qualitative and quantitative, these different things, is a really hard...

00:20:36.639 --> 00:20:43.030
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Because, of course, there's all these different moving parts, the stakeholders, the data collection, these things that you have to make legible.

00:20:44.370 --> 00:20:46.980
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, maybe the flip side of that, is there anything about...

00:20:48.289 --> 00:20:49.049
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Excuse me.

00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:49.909
<v Chandan Dasgupta> That's all right.

00:20:49.909 --> 00:20:59.578
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I'll just turn that off.

00:20:59.578 --> 00:21:00.619
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> We're just going to let that ring out.

00:21:02.439 --> 00:21:03.889
<v Chandan Dasgupta> You can take it if you want.

00:21:04.249 --> 00:21:05.209
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> No, it's not me.

00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:08.830
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I'm currently at my parents' house for the new year.

00:21:08.840 --> 00:21:09.980
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Oh, that's nice.

00:21:10.090 --> 00:21:13.379
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And the truth is, I don't have a phone in my house.

00:21:13.550 --> 00:21:14.860
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I have my cell phone only.

00:21:15.100 --> 00:21:20.210
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, every time I'm here, I forget that there is a landline phone until it rings in the middle of a call.

00:21:20.659 --> 00:21:47.750
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, maybe we can talk a little bit about the flip side of that, that is there anything in terms of doing this kind of research that is feeling really easy or natural or intuitive in this context that you think, oh, that is coming really easily and there's something really likable about doing research, maybe around sharing work, or explaining it to others, or working with particular teachers or student groups, is there anything that feels really...

00:21:48.520 --> 00:21:52.779
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> That we could learn about because it comes so easily or feels so natural to you?

00:21:52.779 --> 00:22:24.969
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I cannot speak for the broader Indian context, but I'll speak for this particular setting that I'm in, working with my colleagues here in the ET department, educational technology department, and also working with the extended community here of researchers who are slowly getting, I would say, trained in learning sciences research.

00:22:25.009 --> 00:22:29.090
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And these are faculty from other departments who are interested in educational research.

00:22:30.099 --> 00:22:31.629
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that's...

00:22:32.219 --> 00:22:44.110
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I would say because it's fairly new, that leaves the field open to try out new things in their classroom at an undergrad level.

00:22:44.580 --> 00:22:48.999
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And they're open and receptive to different ways of teaching and different suggestions.

00:22:49.709 --> 00:23:02.749
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And so, that gives a space for me to try out different theoretical concepts, which I haven't been able to try out in classrooms per se.

00:23:04.399 --> 00:23:04.529
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So-

00:23:04.529 --> 00:23:06.739
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> You're talking about different faculty members?

00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:13.609
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah, different faculty members in IIT, and just working with them and collaborating with them.

00:23:13.609 --> 00:23:15.669
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And this is across IITs.

00:23:15.669 --> 00:23:23.010
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I'm currently collaborating with a person in the civil department who is interested in problem-based learning.

00:23:23.779 --> 00:23:30.309
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And then there's another faculty in IIT Guwahati, who's interested in design based learning.

00:23:30.309 --> 00:23:37.050
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, we are figuring out and helping each other based on whatever we know.

00:23:37.560 --> 00:23:40.779
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I am trying to pitch in with my learning sciences background.

00:23:41.409 --> 00:23:51.439
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But that's more at a faculty level collaboration and trying to figure out how to set the research space.

00:23:52.120 --> 00:23:56.790
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And so, that's been easy in a way, because there's no one else doing it.

00:23:57.709 --> 00:24:01.659
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, there's not a lot of competition, so to say.

00:24:02.860 --> 00:24:09.209
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But that also is a bit like, leaves the room for a lot of...

00:24:09.629 --> 00:24:13.809
<v Chandan Dasgupta> You don't get feedback on what you're doing a lot.

00:24:13.909 --> 00:24:19.399
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I use ICLS as my community to get that feedback from.

00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:50.419
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But in terms of what's really easy or what's working here is that students here are very open to learning about learning sciences, about collaborative learning, and almost assimilating this line of research or this body of knowledge, which has not been the main focus in some say, in a lot of ways.

00:24:51.509 --> 00:24:59.639
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And it's not to say I've started this, but the department has been doing a lot of learning sciences research for the last 10 years.

00:25:01.159 --> 00:25:16.519
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It just hadn't been formalized or given the spin on saying things or framing things had not been from the perspective of learning sciences.

00:25:17.550 --> 00:25:35.169
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, just to give you an example, we had been using this phrase called thinking skills for a very long time, and that is a pillar or a strand of research that the department does.

00:25:35.939 --> 00:25:51.639
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And when you say thinking skills, the first thing that comes to our mind as learning sciences is that it's a very cognitive science-focused construct, which is focused inside, which is focused on the learner, on a one learner inside the head.

00:25:52.929 --> 00:25:57.019
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But when you dig deeper into what the department is doing, it's not really that.

00:25:57.089 --> 00:26:01.959
<v Chandan Dasgupta> They are looking at the whole learning environment, and how that's influencing what the learner is doing.

00:26:02.499 --> 00:26:05.750
<v Chandan Dasgupta> They are building a lot of systems to help the learner.

00:26:05.750 --> 00:26:07.974
<v Chandan Dasgupta> They're thinking about scaffolding and all that.

00:26:08.349 --> 00:26:09.979
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, recently, we moved...

00:26:10.179 --> 00:26:16.879
<v Chandan Dasgupta> We are trying to move away from calling it thinking skills and reframing the argument from a disciplinary practice perspective.

00:26:16.879 --> 00:26:23.219
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, it's a learning process for everyone in the department.

00:26:23.909 --> 00:26:25.030
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I'm also trying to...

00:26:25.030 --> 00:26:45.229
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I did not anticipate that this would be a bridge, but it's a fun bridge to cross and establish, because it's helping me connect with what the department has been doing as well, and what I have been doing in the learning sciences community till now.

00:26:45.629 --> 00:27:01.030
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, I feel like this is one of the things that is such a double-edged sword about the learning sciences, is that because it is so interdisciplinary, you can affiliate with, you can say, oh, I'm talking to cognitive scientists, I'm talking to educational researchers, I'm talking to computer scientists.

00:27:01.070 --> 00:27:08.229
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> But then the downside is that there's always some difference between you and those that you have to say, but it's not exactly that.

00:27:08.229 --> 00:27:22.229
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And it sounds like there's been a lot of power in the last few years in really being able to name that kind of in between space and give it a name and say there actually is a whole large body of research and people doing this kind of work.

00:27:22.229 --> 00:27:24.429
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, that's a good transition to say so.

00:27:24.449 --> 00:27:27.479
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I assume that you partially identify as a learning scientist.

00:27:27.479 --> 00:27:37.689
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, perhaps the formal question is, thinking about venues where you present and publish your work, can you tell us about what field or research community you position yourself in or locate your work in?

00:27:38.689 --> 00:27:45.089
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Right, so primarily, I would say the ICLS has been my main venue in terms of publications.

00:27:45.909 --> 00:27:57.249
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I have one journal publication in JEE, Journal of Engineering Education, and one in computers and education.

00:27:58.989 --> 00:28:06.420
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But primarily, in terms of where I feel at home, it would be the ICLS community to a large extent.

00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:15.290
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I'm also part of some Asia-Pacific learning sciences focused research groups.

00:28:16.110 --> 00:28:20.440
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, one conference that I'm part of is the ICALT...

00:28:20.629 --> 00:28:22.010
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Actually, yeah, mostly one.

00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.409
<v Chandan Dasgupta> ICALT, that's International Conference in Advanced Learning Technologies.

00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:30.320
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And we have a learning science focused track in there.

00:28:30.340 --> 00:28:34.029
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I'm the track chair for that.

00:28:34.629 --> 00:28:43.870
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I'm also partly affiliated with another conference, ICCE, International Conference on Computers in Education.

00:28:43.939 --> 00:28:47.290
<v Chandan Dasgupta> That's focused on Asia-Pacific computer education research.

00:28:47.999 --> 00:29:01.610
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And another faculty in my department, Sahana, who referred you to me, she's more involved in that conference specifically, but I'm aware of what's happening there as well.

00:29:02.179 --> 00:29:03.099
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, those two are...

00:29:03.679 --> 00:29:06.979
<v Chandan Dasgupta> They're communities where we publish our work.

00:29:06.979 --> 00:29:09.659
<v Chandan Dasgupta> We, as in me and my students, publish our work as well.

00:29:10.439 --> 00:29:17.620
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And then we have one conference which is specifically in India called Technology for Education.

00:29:17.689 --> 00:29:27.979
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It's local, and it's funded by IEEE, but it's focused on Indian teachers, Indian researchers working in the ed.

00:29:27.989 --> 00:29:28.699
<v Chandan Dasgupta> tech space.

00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:42.929
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And we are sort of like mostly, it has been led by IIT Bombay till now, with some contribution from HBCSE as well, Homi Bhabha Center for Science Education.

00:29:45.580 --> 00:29:49.499
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But that's a growing community in India as well.

00:29:50.309 --> 00:29:54.389
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, those are the different places where I publish my work.

00:29:55.139 --> 00:29:55.639
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah.

00:29:55.699 --> 00:29:58.370
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Do you feel...

00:29:58.769 --> 00:29:59.839
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Well, never mind, actually.

00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:00.879
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> That's not a good question.

00:30:01.169 --> 00:30:05.809
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I'm going to combine two questions and let you answer them however makes most sense to you.

00:30:05.809 --> 00:30:11.749
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, the questions are basically, in general, what is your general research program, because we haven't really fully said that.

00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:20.110
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> But I think the sibling question that's perhaps related to what we were just talking about is, what kinds of theories have informed and shaped your work?

00:30:20.120 --> 00:30:24.899
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> What other works, thinkers, or schools of thought that have influenced your work broadly?

00:30:25.469 --> 00:30:34.669
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, just zooming out a little bit, as we've talked about two specific projects, if there's any kind of connecting thread or overarching research program you can tell us about for you.

00:30:35.689 --> 00:30:42.509
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I have been very strongly influenced by the productive disciplinary engagement framework.

00:30:43.340 --> 00:30:49.799
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that was one of the central pieces in my dissertation thesis as well, PhD dissertation.

00:30:50.749 --> 00:31:10.909
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that has been informing how I'm looking at my research right now and trying to unpack the different pieces to it and trying to understand what productive or disciplinary or engagement would mean in my current research direction.

00:31:12.489 --> 00:31:45.330
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But in addition to that, I'm also exploring CHAT a little bit more, because that's giving me the space to explore this interaction between what sort of cultural background the students are bringing in, or their learning differences, learning that they're bringing in, and how that's influencing the concept that they're learning.

00:31:45.330 --> 00:31:45.840
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's...

00:31:47.379 --> 00:32:15.300
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I'm exploring that in one of my research on feedback seeking, where I'm trying to understand how students seek feedback and what sort of cues do they use to understand that I can seek feedback from such and such person while doing problem solving, or this is the right moment to reach out to X, Y, and Z to ask for help.

00:32:15.830 --> 00:32:16.429
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's...

00:32:16.810 --> 00:32:26.299
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I'm just exploring that space a little bit more, and maybe CHAT would inform my future research direction to a large extent.

00:32:26.879 --> 00:32:45.280
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, that's very interesting, because feedback seeking is so obviously fundamental to learning and to how people improve and all, but it also is so culturally situated and contextually situated what kinds of feedback you would or wouldn't ask and when you would ask and all like that.

00:32:46.020 --> 00:33:02.489
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that also gives me an opportunity to know more about the cultural context here, because I still consider myself an outsider to the cultural context here, partially because I've been in US for 10 years now.

00:33:02.489 --> 00:33:05.719
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I had been in US for 10 plus years.

00:33:06.269 --> 00:33:09.459
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And before that, like I said, I wasn't in Mumbai.

00:33:09.469 --> 00:33:15.929
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, both those things are putting me in a space where I don't consider myself an insider yet.

00:33:16.550 --> 00:33:30.139
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I think CHAT is a good excuse for me to learn about the context, as well as see how to align my research in a way which is helpful for this local context.

00:33:31.259 --> 00:33:35.454
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I think HBCSE and a lot of people there do this really well.

00:33:35.649 --> 00:33:42.289
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I'm trying to learn from them as well on what sort of work that they do, how to they do it.

00:33:42.919 --> 00:33:46.370
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, it's an ongoing process right now.

00:33:47.090 --> 00:34:02.129
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, I feel like CHAT, and then also, which I think people would understand as an extension of CHAT, this, especially last few years, recent work on politics and ethical perspectives on learning in the learning sciences has been, I think, really, really productive.

00:34:02.469 --> 00:34:25.350
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> But part of why me and Vishesh and Gayithri and Deborah and others, I think, have been so drawn to doing this larger project around the South Asian learning scientist research collective is also this recurring sense that, why is it that some people are understood as having culture and that things being culturally situated and other people are positioned as normal or context free?

00:34:25.389 --> 00:34:33.490
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And I feel like CHAT is a theoretical position that doesn't assume that, which is part of what I think makes it so friendly to more...

00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:35.370
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> To uses-

00:34:35.370 --> 00:34:37.570
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Exploratory work, yeah.

00:34:39.550 --> 00:34:45.880
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, that makes me think it would be interesting to transition to hearing more about your trajectory as an individual.

00:34:45.880 --> 00:35:01.025
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, I don't know if I said this earlier, but I'll just say it again, of course, as I ask these questions, please feel free to pass any question that you either don't want to answer or don't have a particular good answer to, or if you just want to interpret the question whatever what you want and say whatever in response it's also okay.

00:35:01.030 --> 00:35:01.370
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Okay.

00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:11.809
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, at this point, it would be really fun to just hear your story of how you got into the learning sciences and then made your way to the States and then made your way back to IIT.

00:35:13.070 --> 00:35:19.270
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, I guess the broad question is, what motivated you to these research interests?

00:35:20.100 --> 00:35:20.190
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Okay.

00:35:20.510 --> 00:35:33.780
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, if I had to backtrack, I didn't really start my research journey to become a learning scientist.

00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:48.270
<v Chandan Dasgupta> In fact, it was mainly to get away from being a software engineer in an Indian company for three years, where I couldn't see myself doing that for the rest of my life.

00:35:48.279 --> 00:35:50.380
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I knew what I did not want to do.

00:35:51.120 --> 00:36:13.750
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that put me on a trajectory of getting into a master's program in human computer interaction at Georgia Tech, where I just happened to meet Janet Kolodner in her lab, and was fortunate enough to get funding to work with her on her projects.

00:36:14.319 --> 00:36:35.160
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And from there on, I learned about learning sciences, and I had been passionate about teaching and working for educational NGOs here in India when I was working as a software engineer, but I had never considered pursuing that as a formal research direction.

00:36:36.059 --> 00:36:47.870
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, just knowing about learning sciences, and this was back in 2007, 2008, 2009, where learning sciences was itself a developing field.

00:36:49.710 --> 00:37:12.639
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But understanding that there's a group of researchers who share the same passion and share the same set of goals and are open to doing the things, I think that opened up the space for me to explore different things in learning sciences.

00:37:13.150 --> 00:37:20.720
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And then I went for my PhD in learning sciences at UIC, where I was working with Tom Moher.

00:37:21.390 --> 00:37:41.640
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And so, that helped me merge my computer science background and more of the learning sciences focused, and do a lot of design based research, working with school kids and designing environments for them, working with teachers.

00:37:42.140 --> 00:37:44.670
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I think that sort of helped me....

00:37:46.930 --> 00:37:52.900
<v Chandan Dasgupta> That set the trajectory for me in learning sciences and as an educational researcher.

00:37:55.110 --> 00:37:55.670
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah-

00:37:55.670 --> 00:37:57.260
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I don't know if I've answered your question.

00:37:57.270 --> 00:37:58.370
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> You have, you have.

00:37:58.890 --> 00:38:07.430
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, then perhaps the second part of the story, so then when you finished your PhD, what kind of trajectory took you back to India?

00:38:08.650 --> 00:38:16.560
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, after my PhD, I was able to get a postdoc position at Purdue for one and a half...

00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:17.339
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Two years.

00:38:17.850 --> 00:38:22.740
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And this was in the Computer Information Technology department.

00:38:22.740 --> 00:38:25.099
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I think that's called Purdue Polytechnic right now.

00:38:26.839 --> 00:38:31.410
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And there, the focus was a lot on engineering education.

00:38:32.049 --> 00:38:44.570
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that helped me solidify my research more in engineering education and explore more of the computer-based or CSCL sort of research there.

00:38:46.750 --> 00:38:56.220
<v Chandan Dasgupta> How I ended up moving back to India is an interesting story as well, because it had always been on the card for me, both me and my wife.

00:38:56.810 --> 00:39:14.840
<v Chandan Dasgupta> We didn't oppose the idea of moving back to India, but we didn't consider it very seriously as well, because I wasn't sure of what sort of research would be possible here which would allow me to keep on doing the learning sciences related work.

00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:20.269
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I wasn't aware of the group here at IIT Bombay doing this work.

00:39:20.969 --> 00:39:26.360
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I just happened to run into them in one of their conferences organized by HBCSE.

00:39:28.130 --> 00:39:29.250
<v Chandan Dasgupta> It was called epiSTEME.

00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:36.020
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And there, I ran into this group at IIT Bombay, and then we started talking.

00:39:36.040 --> 00:39:38.659
<v Chandan Dasgupta> We were in touch for around two to three years.

00:39:39.349 --> 00:39:44.220
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, this was throughout the time I was finishing up my PhD and throughout my postdoc.

00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:58.870
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I was also building up my resume so that I'd be able to apply for a position here and fulfill the requirements that are necessary here to become a faculty.

00:39:59.850 --> 00:40:05.970
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And then it just clicked that 2017 was the year for me to move back.

00:40:07.600 --> 00:40:13.529
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And also, due to some personal reasons, I had to come back and be near my parents.

00:40:14.319 --> 00:40:23.760
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I think both of those were reasons for me to come back and be here in India.

00:40:26.300 --> 00:40:27.700
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

00:40:27.710 --> 00:40:28.129
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I think...

00:40:29.420 --> 00:40:37.040
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I didn't know you were a software engineer before, but it's interesting that software engineering to HCI to learning sciences.

00:40:37.069 --> 00:40:39.200
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And it makes sense when you tell it.

00:40:39.200 --> 00:40:41.780
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> You're like, oh, I see how that happened.

00:40:42.830 --> 00:40:46.410
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> But when you look across the whole story, you're like, oh, you went pretty far.

00:40:47.580 --> 00:40:54.050
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, at this point, it might be interesting to hear a little bit about how you're thinking about social impact, equity, inclusion, access.

00:40:54.050 --> 00:40:58.810
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And again, I want to say, speak only to this issue to whatever degree makes sense for you.

00:40:59.160 --> 00:41:07.540
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> But how have you thought about your work with respect to social issues in India or your community, or to put that question a different way, who do you hope benefits from your work?

00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:11.507
<v Chandan Dasgupta> To be very frank, I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about a particular issue in that space, but that also comes from the fact that I'm learning about the context here and trying to understand.

00:41:11.507 --> 00:41:13.730
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, one of the things I've been trying to do more of is find research which have been done by Indian researchers here in India.

00:41:13.730 --> 00:41:51.600
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And HBCSE and TISS has a lot of those in their repository.

00:41:51.600 --> 00:41:53.460
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I'm trying to read up more on that.

00:41:55.980 --> 00:42:14.380
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I wouldn't say that I have actively focused on those issues right now, but hopefully, over the next coming few years, I would hope that it would become part of my research direction, and I'm consciously working towards that.

00:42:16.290 --> 00:42:25.869
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Part of the population who I feel I would like to see benefited from my research is the rural population.

00:42:25.869 --> 00:42:28.190
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Definitely, urban is where I am.

00:42:28.870 --> 00:42:38.300
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And, by default, I think that they would benefit because IIT Bombay is here, and it has this...

00:42:38.300 --> 00:42:47.670
<v Chandan Dasgupta> There's a natural osmosis of ideas from IIT Bombay to places which are around IIT Bombay in the city.

00:42:49.210 --> 00:42:57.500
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But that's not the case with places which are not in the near vicinity in terms of the geographic vicinity.

00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:06.070
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And increasingly, so we recently opened up the master's program in educational technology from last year [2019].

00:43:06.670 --> 00:43:13.110
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And we are getting a lot of students from very diverse background.

00:43:13.610 --> 00:43:18.939
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that's helping me connect with their background as well and different contexts that they're coming from.

00:43:19.660 --> 00:43:23.780
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And that's helping me understand the space, which I'm not familiar with.

00:43:24.670 --> 00:43:32.409
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I think they are taking ideas with them back to their community, their villages.

00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:38.250
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I think those are the people ultimately whom I would like to see benefited from my work.

00:43:39.890 --> 00:43:41.490
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, I really appreciate that.

00:43:41.570 --> 00:43:48.880
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And I think technology is so interesting as an entry point, but I think educational technology carries with it a little bit more of that.

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:55.599
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Hopefully, carries is within a sense of wanting to deploy towards some purpose.

00:43:56.229 --> 00:44:05.390
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And I also really appreciated what you said about reading Indian authors who have been writing around this kind of work and prioritizing some of those perspectives.

00:44:05.390 --> 00:44:15.440
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, that leads to a natural transition about your evaluation of the climate of educational research and specifically learning sciences research in India.

00:44:16.340 --> 00:44:22.830
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, what ongoing efforts led by researchers in India have you come across that you are really excited about?

00:44:22.830 --> 00:44:32.520
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Feel free to name specific projects or researchers, or just speak generally about what is exciting to you right now about learning sciences in educational research in India.

00:44:34.790 --> 00:44:41.950
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, one, I already mentioned about the T4E, Technology for Education conference, which is being run.

00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:50.550
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's helping connect multiple people across India who have interest in educational research.

00:44:50.560 --> 00:44:50.960
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that-

00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:54.260
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> And could you say that, that conference is also with teachers and all?

00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:54.860
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> [inaudible]

00:44:55.030 --> 00:44:55.550
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> .
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah, right, right.

00:44:55.590 --> 00:44:55.940
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah.

00:44:57.340 --> 00:45:12.440
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> So, I'm very excited to be part of that group because it's helping me connect with other researchers and other practitioners in India, and understand the challenges or whatever works for them.

00:45:13.780 --> 00:45:23.990
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> The other effort which has been ongoing for the past one, one and a half years is that we are trying to establish an educational technology society in India.

00:45:25.550 --> 00:45:45.330
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> And that's mainly towards bringing together a lot of different efforts that we have seen happen related to teachers, professional development, related to education research, a lot of work which HBCSE does, a lot of work that we do.

00:45:45.660 --> 00:46:05.170
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> So, that's more of a formal community that we are trying to form and get visibility at India-wide level, and which may also have possibly some say in the policy matters related to education.

00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:10.500
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> But that's a very far fetched idea right now.

00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:22.170
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> It's just a matter of right now, we are trying to get the members together, get people connected, establish a common shared goal across all these diverse stakeholders in that community.

00:46:23.330 --> 00:46:29.010
<v  Chandan Dasgupta> But these are evolving things which are very exciting to be part of in India.

00:46:29.389 --> 00:46:30.350
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, I really like...

00:46:32.349 --> 00:46:35.159
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Perhaps far in the future, but not so farfetched.

00:46:35.160 --> 00:46:37.440
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I really like that dreaming big.

00:46:37.690 --> 00:46:46.619
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, related to that, what kinds of work do you want to see more of moving forward, or to put it a different way, if you were in charge, what would you...

00:46:47.110 --> 00:46:57.060
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> What kinds of frameworks, methods, epistemologies, contexts, research focuses do you wish were more prevalent or would you want to see people work on more in the future?

00:46:57.560 --> 00:46:57.740
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah.

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.210
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, one is definitely CHAT.

00:47:02.740 --> 00:47:09.649
<v Chandan Dasgupta> That's something which I am interested in right now, so maybe that's why I'm saying that as one of my answers.

00:47:09.650 --> 00:47:14.639
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, but in this story, you're in charge, so you get to say whatever you want.

00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:14.659
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Yeah.

00:47:14.659 --> 00:47:35.790
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But the other thing I think we have been practicing, trying to practice in the department is the communities of practice or the legitimate peripheral participation, and using that as a way of understanding, and talking to stakeholders at different levels, but also framing research.

00:47:36.590 --> 00:47:49.250
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Even within design based research, these are all different things which can be tried out to understand different aspects of the learning environment.

00:47:49.250 --> 00:48:08.111
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, going forward, I would like to see more of, say, ethnographic work or just more of design based research at a very broad level, because that's still not very widespread or widely accepted as a valid way of doing research.

00:48:08.111 --> 00:48:16.359
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I think the more of that we do, the more widespread and accepted that would be.

00:48:18.130 --> 00:48:19.109
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, thank you.

00:48:19.110 --> 00:48:21.019
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> That's a really illuminating answer.

00:48:21.090 --> 00:48:29.340
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, to bring us to a close here, what advice do you have to newcomers to educational research in India?

00:48:31.780 --> 00:48:41.360
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Either to somebody who is contextually situated in India, or to an outsider, either way, whichever question is more compelling to you.

00:48:41.500 --> 00:48:44.179
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, this would come across as a general preaching.

00:48:44.179 --> 00:48:45.463
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I don't-

00:48:45.463 --> 00:48:46.747
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Please preach.

00:48:46.747 --> 00:48:49.315
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> The platform is yours.

00:48:49.315 --> 00:49:03.529
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Well, I think what worked for me, and this was some advice which I was given and which helped me settle in, was not to come with this grand plan of changing the system overnight.

00:49:04.250 --> 00:49:15.879
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And when you're trained in education research or learning science research, you feel that you know everything, but then it's not really the case.

00:49:15.890 --> 00:49:18.050
<v Chandan Dasgupta> You are coming to a different context.

00:49:18.050 --> 00:49:25.590
<v Chandan Dasgupta> You're working with different groups of people here, both from a research and target demographic perspective.

00:49:26.100 --> 00:49:38.612
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, not having that grand plan or notion of that I would change the system or overhaul the whole education structure here in India.

00:49:38.612 --> 00:49:48.709
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I think that would reduce the frustration to a large extent when you hit across the different worlds as you proceed.

00:49:48.710 --> 00:50:02.100
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But also, I think being prepared for not holding yourself up to the same set of parameters that you may have held if you were in US.

00:50:02.650 --> 00:50:22.420
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, if I were in the US at a similar juncture in my career, I would be very focused on grant writing and paying a lot of attention on getting funding for my projects, which this system is not really...

00:50:25.450 --> 00:50:28.240
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Not encouraging, it's sort of putting emphasis somewhere else.

00:50:29.490 --> 00:50:33.590
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, being open to that sort of change in the focus.

00:50:34.340 --> 00:50:41.530
<v Chandan Dasgupta> And I'm even thankful for that, because I don't have to worry about funding to a large extent.

00:50:42.150 --> 00:50:55.330
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that leaves me to think freely about the nature of the research that I do, not worrying about what the funding agencies want me to do.

00:50:55.330 --> 00:50:58.840
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, that works both ways when you're moving to a different context.

00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:05.270
<v Chandan Dasgupta> But I think being open to those sort of situations and making the best of what's there available for you.

00:51:05.779 --> 00:51:08.280
<v Chandan Dasgupta> So, I think those two would be the big things for me.

00:51:09.740 --> 00:51:10.630
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Yeah, thank you.

00:51:10.670 --> 00:51:14.080
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I think the funding issue is really interesting too, because we keep returning to it.

00:51:14.090 --> 00:51:23.400
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I feel like the funding situation in the US is actually something that I'm quite critical of, because I think it seems to get the...

00:51:24.010 --> 00:51:32.300
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I really shouldn't say this on recording, but I know that it's funding the research, but sometimes it feels to me like it's getting in the way of research.

00:51:35.540 --> 00:51:40.119
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> So, just closing out here, is there anything else that...

00:51:40.479 --> 00:51:41.759
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Let me rephrase.

00:51:42.020 --> 00:51:47.880
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> What else would you like to add about your research work or the broader research community in India that we missed talking about today?

00:51:50.680 --> 00:51:51.420
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Nothing really.

00:51:51.430 --> 00:51:56.163
<v Chandan Dasgupta> I think we covered everything.

00:51:56.163 --> 00:51:57.120
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Nothing else to add to that.

00:51:57.849 --> 00:51:58.339
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> Okay.

00:51:59.349 --> 00:52:00.700
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> It's really nice to chat with you.

00:52:00.700 --> 00:52:04.630
<v Suraj Uttamchandani> I'm really glad to put a face to the name, and this has been really, really illuminating-

00:52:04.640 --> 00:52:05.100
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Same here.

00:52:05.410 --> 00:52:19.990
<v Chandan Dasgupta> Thanks for the really thoughtful questions, and giving me the space to be open about a lot of things and express my views.