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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, in this interview, we're simply interested in hearing about your perspectives and practices and experiences in the larger project.

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We're looking at patterns and differences in how a variety of researchers have explored teaching and learning in diverse Indian contexts.

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Importantly, we want to deeply consider a wide variety of sociocultural groups and center educational equity in this work, so we actively seek perspectives from minoritized groups and connections to important equity issues, such as caste discrimination, LGBTQ+ lives, sexism, religious discrimination, indigenous epistemologies, and decolonization.</v>

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And I say all of that to say, that's the larger trajectory of this work, but also that you shouldn't feel like you have to talk to all of those issues.

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Please feel free to just speak to what you are thinking about and working on, and the larger project will hopefully paint that picture.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Okay.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Okay, so shall we dive right in?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah.

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What do you want me to start with?

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, let's start by talking about a specific project you're working on, maybe your current project, or-

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Okay.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>...specific to India.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah, I’ll talk about, so just to set the context, I'll talk about two projects.

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One is not research focused.

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It's more of, we call it consultancy project here, like a sponsor...

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It's sort of a sponsored project, not a consultancy.

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An organization had sponsored this project, and I'm the co-PI on that project.

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But there's no research angle to it yet.

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It's mostly like answering a demand in the educational technology, evolving educational technology market right now.

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And then after that, I'll talk about one research project.

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So, I think both of those would help you set the context for the rest of the conversation.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Love it.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>So, the first part I was talking about the sponsored project, that's called...

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That's sponsored by this group called CSF, Central Square Foundation, and it's related to evaluating educational technology products in the Indian market.

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And the reason why it came into existence was that, especially with the lockdown, but even up to the lockdown, the interest around the educational technology and its use in classroom had been growing.

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There were a lot of companies coming up in this space, and especially with the lockdown that threw everyone into this position that they had to adopt it, whether they liked it or not.

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So, then the question was, which one do we select?

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And there wasn't a clear way to reach that answer or a clear systematic way to answer that question.

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So, that's when CSF proposed this project that we need to give a level playing field to all the stakeholders across different parts of India.

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So, these are government stakeholders, principals, schools, as well as parents.

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And all of them would have their own requirements in terms of what they would be looking for from the product.

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So, there was a need to give them this information in a freely accessible and a, sort of, standardized way, which they can use to make their decisions.

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So, that was the origin of this project.

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So, we were brought into the loop, and we are currently working on creating one instrument that gets started off as one instrument, but it has become a multi-pronged instrument, which has multiple versions and multiple ways of using the instruments to evaluate different ed tech products.

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So, currently we are starting with one type of ed tech product, personalized adaptive learning, and then we'll move into DCRs, the digital classroom products, and probably going to game-based learning as well.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Nationwide, is it?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Nationwide, yes.

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So, that's the ultimate goal.

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So, right now, we've signed up for a two-year contract with the company, with CSF, but we are doing our due diligence in terms of trying to come up with this index and trying to validate and establish its reliability as well.

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And there's also a huge pull right now from the governments because they are in the process of tendering and seeking out these ed tech products as we speak.

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So, we are also training the government on how to do these evaluations on their own using this index, the current version of the index.

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So, it's a bit of a balancing act, where we are developing the index while trying to establish its validity and reliability, which is not really the main concern of the stakeholders who want to use it immediately.

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So, we are also trying to train them on using this index.

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So, there's a training session that's happening as well.

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And currently, we are working with one state right now in India, and they have their own requirements of what type of products they're looking for and whatnot.

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But the index we have tried to create is applicable at a pan-India level.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, it's a series of questions that you ask about the product, is it?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>It's a series of questions, a series of criteria focusing on content, pedagogy, and technology.

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So, those are three broad constructs which form the index.

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And then within those, there are multiple criteria to develop different dimensions of the product design.

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So, we are approaching product design from these three dimensions.

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And, once we break it down across all these criteria, then we're trying to aggregate the evaluation and then give a report back to whoever is interested to use the report.

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And then, since the adoption is becoming a very critical issue right now, whoever wants to use the index, we are training them as well to use it in parallel.

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The only trick there is that we are looking for subject matter experts to use the index in a proper way, which is not really possible all the time for a team to have.

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So, that's the ongoing balancing act that's going on.

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But we are also realizing all the nuances that are there in terms of the different needs from a student's perspective, like rural students would have a different kind of need from a software product than urban students.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Can you talk a little bit more about that?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah.

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So, we have tried to factor that in a little bit, but we realize that none of the products are designed to pay attention to that sort of difference between the urban and rural needs.

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And even in our team, none of us are...

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None of us can call ourself experts in that sort of research-based understanding, because we have mostly worked with urban students in our projects till now.

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And mostly, before I came into the department, majority of the student population that were part of the research study were college students in Mumbai.

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And perhaps a little bit outside Mumbai as well, but mostly tier one places.

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So, now we are talking about tier two and tier three places, which are in a different context, have a different set of resources available to them.

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So, I think even this project for us is a big learning opportunity to try to connect with that population and try to learn from them and also try to educate ourselves in what is it that they need from this index.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah.

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I really appreciate what you're saying.

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I feel like that is so often the case, that wherever the university is, it's that population that is the one that we know the most about, of course, which is...

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Of course, happens, for various reasons.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah.

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And I'll speak for myself a little bit more.

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My handicap right now is that since I moved to India 2017, so it's just been three years and a few months now.

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And because I moved continents and I am not from this city, I wasn't born and brought up in Mumbai-

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Where did you...

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Where were you raised?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>I was born and brought up in Delhi.

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So, it's a entirely different cultural upbringing there.

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And my family is from West Bengal.

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That's another different context completely.

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So, it's understanding how people work here.

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It's a different work environment as well.

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And, at the same time, trying to understand how to do research in this environment, and also working my way through the deliverables.

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Some of them are explicitly laid out in terms of what counts for promotion and some of them are not.

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And there's a difference between what I've been trained to expect in the US and what's expected from me in India in terms of what counts towards promotion and what counts towards good research.

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So, I think negotiating those spaces for me has been a learning curve in itself.

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So, I'm at this place where only now I've started to become or feel a little bit comfortable to delve more into the research part without worrying about all the other aspects of trying to fit in, in this community.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>And you've been at IIT for three years now, is it?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Right, yeah.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Right.

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Yeah, that's really interesting, and I want to talk more about those differences and how they shape how we should think about research.

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So, maybe it's...

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So, you said you were telling us about both that ed tech project and research project, so-

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Right, so the other project which I wanted to talk about is the core of my research work right now.

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It's focusing on collaborative uncertainty management.

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And that topic-

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>You said collaborative uncertainty management?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Right, yeah.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>That sounds interesting.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah.

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And this is...

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I started looking at it specifically in the context of engineering design, but as I added students to my group, I've spread out a bit and looking at science education as well.

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And there has been some work on uncertainty management, especially in the science education, but I haven't seen this yet in the engineering education area yet.

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So, that's what my focus is right now, trying to understand how to leverage this uncertainty management process to learn science and engineering concepts.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, is uncertainty management in engineering when you are uncertain of what's going to happen and you have to manage that in your current design, is it?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah, that's part of it.

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So, a little bit more nuanced way of thinking about it could be that when you're working with engineering problems, those are open ended and ill-structured in themselves.

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But then when you're working in a group, that adds that social uncertainty as well, where you're trying to negotiate the space with another person or another set of people, and trying to collaboratively figure out how to work through this ill-structured problem.

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So, there's the content uncertainty, and there's the social uncertainty or the relational uncertainty as well.

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And both of those are interacting with each other as the problem solving happens.

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So, I'm still learning about the space.

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And two of my students right now are working on this.

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They're in their third year.

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So, one is focusing on engineering education, another one is focusing on chemistry education.

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That's a little bit different scenario.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, are these naturalistic studies, observational studies, or are they design based research studies?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>They're design based research.

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And I'll talk a little bit about the data collection also.

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I saw that you had a couple of questions related to that.

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But yeah, broadly, that's the focus right now, where we are trying to understand what sort of mechanism is involved in the uncertainty management and how do we...

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Sorry.

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How do we leverage this process for learning, and what else scaffolds can we put in place, and what sort of environment can we design for students?

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To not really ignore or suppress the uncertainty, both from a teacher and student perspective, but maintain it and be comfortable with it and use it towards our learning our goals.

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Yeah.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, maybe as, to what you were just saying, can you tell us a little bit about the geographic location or the social context of those studies with whatever specificity is appropriate, and why, what interested you about working with that particular group or in that particular place or with that specific content...

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Context, rather.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Right.

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So, till now, the target demographic has been more of a convenient sample, where I worked with middle school students.

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So, one set of data is coming from a school which is within IIT, Bombay.

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It's Kendriya Vidyalaya, so it's a central government CBSE board school.

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And there, we have done one round of data collection in the science classroom, grade six.

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And this set is coming from a set of workshops that we did with, again, grade six to grade eight students.

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But then these students were students of faculty members, of staff within IIT.

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They did go to schools which are outside the campus or outside IIT Bombay, but all of them have this common thread of them being present on-site campus.

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So, that has been more of a convenient sample for me, because they were easy to get hold of.

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So, in terms of the diversity, I would say it's not really diverse and it's a biased and skewed sample.

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But I'm trying to work my way through the school system here and trying to build a relationship with the schools here, because part of the challenge is that...

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So, one is to convince them that this is an ethically-conducted research, and we are using the video just for research.

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And a related thing with that is that people here are not very comfortable with cameras in the classroom, especially for a research perspective.

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Cameras in the classroom would mean a different thing.

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Maybe it's more of a journalistic thing than a class thing.

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So, making the school or the classroom used to that, and also trying to tackle the ethics part of it, because there wasn't...

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There isn't still a very rigorous ethics clearance thing to it.

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And I think this is part of the process where the ethics board was set up mainly to handle biological research.

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And slowly, with more and more educational and social science research, they've been evolving and the processes are changing as well.

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So, I'm currently part of one new ethics board, which is coming up in IIT, Bombay, which is specifically designed for social science research.

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So, we are trying to make the process simpler and much more open to social science research and not very discouraging of the different things which are typically the case in biological ethics clearance process.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, it's...

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Go ahead.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>No, I think I went on a tangent there.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>No, I think you were...

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It's really interesting to hear about those specific challenges because in some sense, some of them are...

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Obviously, they're specifically situated, but they're also something universal about building trust with whoever it is, and people's suspicion about video cameras and all.

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Are there other challenges that have happened in terms of conducting research in this context that you'd like to talk about in terms of maybe getting funding or sharing your work or building that trust, or do you feel like you've said the big ones?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>From a research perspective, I said the big ones.

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So, funding here, and that speaks to the way the expectations are set up, is that getting funds is not really the main focus of being here or being present here as a faculty.

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It's predominantly teaching, publishing papers, and then guiding PhD students.

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And that is part of the way the system is designed, where the funding comes from the central government.

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And that takes care of students' funding and students' work that they're doing.

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So, I have tried my hand at a couple of funding agencies and granting agencies, both government and private, but I haven't had success with them yet.

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So, I'm still trying to understand what sort of expectations they have, because educational research is still very new in India.

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And people don't know what learning sciences is.

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Educational technology, that's the name of the department that I'm in, that's somewhat more recognized than learning sciences, but as such, the discipline or the area of research, the kind of work that gets submitted for funding is not very mainstream core engineering research that is typically expected by different funding agencies.

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And it's not also cognitive science, which is a more established domain here.

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So, it's all negotiating that space and trying to understand how to frame the research to get through the funding agencies.

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So, that's part of the challenge that I'm trying to work through.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah.

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It seems like simply establishing not only educational research, but also specifically the kind of educational research that is really common in the learning sciences, video-based, semi qualitative and quantitative, these different things, is a really hard...

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Because, of course, there's all these different moving parts, the stakeholders, the data collection, these things that you have to make legible.

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So, maybe the flip side of that, is there anything about...

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Excuse me.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>That's all right.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>I'll just turn that off.

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We're just going to let that ring out.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>You can take it if you want.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>No, it's not me.

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I'm currently at my parents' house for the new year.

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Oh, that's nice.

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>And the truth is, I don't have a phone in my house.

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I have my cell phone only.

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So, every time I'm here, I forget that there is a landline phone until it rings in the middle of a call.

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So, maybe we can talk a little bit about the flip side of that, that is there anything in terms of doing this kind of research that is feeling really easy or natural or intuitive in this context that you think, oh, that is coming really easily and there's something really likable about doing research, maybe around sharing work, or explaining it to others, or working with particular teachers or student groups, is there anything that feels really...

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That we could learn about because it comes so easily or feels so natural to you?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>So, I cannot speak for the broader Indian context, but I'll speak for this particular setting that I'm in, working with my colleagues here in the ET department, educational technology department, and also working with the extended community here of researchers who are slowly getting, I would say, trained in learning sciences research.

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And these are faculty from other departments who are interested in educational research.

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And that's...

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I would say because it's fairly new, that leaves the field open to try out new things in their classroom at an undergrad level.

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And they're open and receptive to different ways of teaching and different suggestions.

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And so, that gives a space for me to try out different theoretical concepts, which I haven't been able to try out in classrooms per se.

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So-

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<v Suraj Uttamchandani>You're talking about different faculty members?

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<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah, different faculty members in IIT, and just working with them and collaborating with them.

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And this is across IITs.

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So, I'm currently collaborating with a person in the civil department who is interested in problem-based learning.

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And then there's another faculty in IIT Guwahati, who's interested in design based learning.

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So, we are figuring out and helping each other based on whatever we know.

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And I am trying to pitch in with my learning sciences background.

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But that's more at a faculty level collaboration and trying to figure out how to set the research space.

00:23:52.120 --> 00:23:56.790
And so, that's been easy in a way, because there's no one else doing it.

00:23:57.709 --> 00:24:01.659
So, there's not a lot of competition, so to say.

00:24:02.860 --> 00:24:09.209
But that also is a bit like, leaves the room for a lot of...

00:24:09.629 --> 00:24:13.809
You don't get feedback on what you're doing a lot.

00:24:13.909 --> 00:24:19.399
So, I use ICLS as my community to get that feedback from.

00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:50.419
But in terms of what's really easy or what's working here is that students here are very open to learning about learning sciences, about collaborative learning, and almost assimilating this line of research or this body of knowledge, which has not been the main focus in some say, in a lot of ways.

00:24:51.509 --> 00:24:59.639
And it's not to say I've started this, but the department has been doing a lot of learning sciences research for the last 10 years.

00:25:01.159 --> 00:25:16.519
It just hadn't been formalized or given the spin on saying things or framing things had not been from the perspective of learning sciences.

00:25:17.550 --> 00:25:35.169
So, just to give you an example, we had been using this phrase called thinking skills for a very long time, and that is a pillar or a strand of research that the department does.

00:25:35.939 --> 00:25:51.639
And when you say thinking skills, the first thing that comes to our mind as learning sciences is that it's a very cognitive science-focused construct, which is focused inside, which is focused on the learner, on a one learner inside the head.

00:25:52.929 --> 00:25:57.019
But when you dig deeper into what the department is doing, it's not really that.

00:25:57.089 --> 00:26:01.959
They are looking at the whole learning environment, and how that's influencing what the learner is doing.

00:26:02.499 --> 00:26:05.750
They are building a lot of systems to help the learner.

00:26:05.750 --> 00:26:07.974
They're thinking about scaffolding and all that.

00:26:08.349 --> 00:26:09.979
So, recently, we moved...

00:26:10.179 --> 00:26:16.879
We are trying to move away from calling it thinking skills and reframing the argument from a disciplinary practice perspective.

00:26:16.879 --> 00:26:23.219
So, it's a learning process for everyone in the department.

00:26:23.909 --> 00:26:25.030
And I'm also trying to...

00:26:25.030 --> 00:26:45.229
I did not anticipate that this would be a bridge, but it's a fun bridge to cross and establish, because it's helping me connect with what the department has been doing as well, and what I have been doing in the learning sciences community till now.

00:26:45.629 --> 00:27:01.030
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, I feel like this is one of the things that is such a double-edged sword about the learning sciences, is that because it is so interdisciplinary, you can affiliate with, you can say, oh, I'm talking to cognitive scientists, I'm talking to educational researchers, I'm talking to computer scientists.

00:27:01.070 --> 00:27:08.229
But then the downside is that there's always some difference between you and those that you have to say, but it's not exactly that.

00:27:08.229 --> 00:27:22.229
And it sounds like there's been a lot of power in the last few years in really being able to name that kind of in between space and give it a name and say there actually is a whole large body of research and people doing this kind of work.

00:27:22.229 --> 00:27:24.429
So, that's a good transition to say so.

00:27:24.449 --> 00:27:27.479
I assume that you partially identify as a learning scientist.

00:27:27.479 --> 00:27:37.689
So, perhaps the formal question is, thinking about venues where you present and publish your work, can you tell us about what field or research community you position yourself in or locate your work in?

00:27:38.689 --> 00:27:45.089
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Right, so primarily, I would say the ICLS has been my main venue in terms of publications.

00:27:45.909 --> 00:27:57.249
And I have one journal publication in JEE, Journal of Engineering Education, and one in computers and education.

00:27:58.989 --> 00:28:06.420
But primarily, in terms of where I feel at home, it would be the ICLS community to a large extent.

00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:15.290
And I'm also part of some Asia-Pacific learning sciences focused research groups.

00:28:16.110 --> 00:28:20.440
So, one conference that I'm part of is the ICALT...

00:28:20.629 --> 00:28:22.010
Actually, yeah, mostly one.

00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.409
ICALT, that's International Conference in Advanced Learning Technologies.

00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:30.320
And we have a learning science focused track in there.

00:28:30.340 --> 00:28:34.029
And I'm the track chair for that.

00:28:34.629 --> 00:28:43.870
And I'm also partly affiliated with another conference, ICCE, International Conference on Computers in Education.

00:28:43.939 --> 00:28:47.290
That's focused on Asia-Pacific computer education research.

00:28:47.999 --> 00:29:01.610
And another faculty in my department, Sahana, who referred you to me, she's more involved in that conference specifically, but I'm aware of what's happening there as well.

00:29:02.179 --> 00:29:03.099
So, those two are...

00:29:03.679 --> 00:29:06.979
They're communities where we publish our work.

00:29:06.979 --> 00:29:09.659
We, as in me and my students, publish our work as well.

00:29:10.439 --> 00:29:17.620
And then we have one conference which is specifically in India called Technology for Education.

00:29:17.689 --> 00:29:27.979
It's local, and it's funded by IEEE, but it's focused on Indian teachers, Indian researchers working in the ed.

00:29:27.989 --> 00:29:28.699
tech space.

00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:42.929
And we are sort of like mostly, it has been led by IIT Bombay till now, with some contribution from HBCSE as well, Homi Bhabha Center for Science Education.

00:29:45.580 --> 00:29:49.499
But that's a growing community in India as well.

00:29:50.309 --> 00:29:54.389
So, those are the different places where I publish my work.

00:29:55.139 --> 00:29:55.639
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah.

00:29:55.699 --> 00:29:58.370
Do you feel...

00:29:58.769 --> 00:29:59.839
Well, never mind, actually.

00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:00.879
That's not a good question.

00:30:01.169 --> 00:30:05.809
I'm going to combine two questions and let you answer them however makes most sense to you.

00:30:05.809 --> 00:30:11.749
So, the questions are basically, in general, what is your general research program, because we haven't really fully said that.

00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:20.110
But I think the sibling question that's perhaps related to what we were just talking about is, what kinds of theories have informed and shaped your work?

00:30:20.120 --> 00:30:24.899
What other works, thinkers, or schools of thought that have influenced your work broadly?

00:30:25.469 --> 00:30:34.669
So, just zooming out a little bit, as we've talked about two specific projects, if there's any kind of connecting thread or overarching research program you can tell us about for you.

00:30:35.689 --> 00:30:42.509
<v Chandan Dasgupta>So, I have been very strongly influenced by the productive disciplinary engagement framework.

00:30:43.340 --> 00:30:49.799
And that was one of the central pieces in my dissertation thesis as well, PhD dissertation.

00:30:50.749 --> 00:31:10.909
And that has been informing how I'm looking at my research right now and trying to unpack the different pieces to it and trying to understand what productive or disciplinary or engagement would mean in my current research direction.

00:31:12.489 --> 00:31:45.330
But in addition to that, I'm also exploring CHAT a little bit more, because that's giving me the space to explore this interaction between what sort of cultural background the students are bringing in, or their learning differences, learning that they're bringing in, and how that's influencing the concept that they're learning.

00:31:45.330 --> 00:31:45.840
So, that's...

00:31:47.379 --> 00:32:15.300
I'm exploring that in one of my research on feedback seeking, where I'm trying to understand how students seek feedback and what sort of cues do they use to understand that I can seek feedback from such and such person while doing problem solving, or this is the right moment to reach out to X, Y, and Z to ask for help.

00:32:15.830 --> 00:32:16.429
So, that's...

00:32:16.810 --> 00:32:26.299
I'm just exploring that space a little bit more, and maybe CHAT would inform my future research direction to a large extent.

00:32:26.879 --> 00:32:45.280
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, that's very interesting, because feedback seeking is so obviously fundamental to learning and to how people improve and all, but it also is so culturally situated and contextually situated what kinds of feedback you would or wouldn't ask and when you would ask and all like that.

00:32:46.020 --> 00:33:02.489
<v Chandan Dasgupta>And that also gives me an opportunity to know more about the cultural context here, because I still consider myself an outsider to the cultural context here, partially because I've been in US for 10 years now.

00:33:02.489 --> 00:33:05.719
I had been in US for 10 plus years.

00:33:06.269 --> 00:33:09.459
And before that, like I said, I wasn't in Mumbai.

00:33:09.469 --> 00:33:15.929
So, both those things are putting me in a space where I don't consider myself an insider yet.

00:33:16.550 --> 00:33:30.139
So, I think CHAT is a good excuse for me to learn about the context, as well as see how to align my research in a way which is helpful for this local context.

00:33:31.259 --> 00:33:35.454
And I think HBCSE and a lot of people there do this really well.

00:33:35.649 --> 00:33:42.289
And I'm trying to learn from them as well on what sort of work that they do, how to they do it.

00:33:42.919 --> 00:33:46.370
So, it's an ongoing process right now.

00:33:47.090 --> 00:34:02.129
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, I feel like CHAT, and then also, which I think people would understand as an extension of CHAT, this, especially last few years, recent work on politics and ethical perspectives on learning in the learning sciences has been, I think, really, really productive.

00:34:02.469 --> 00:34:25.350
But part of why me and Vishesh and Gayithri and Deborah and others, I think, have been so drawn to doing this larger project around the South Asian learning scientist research collective is also this recurring sense that, why is it that some people are understood as having culture and that things being culturally situated and other people are positioned as normal or context free?

00:34:25.389 --> 00:34:33.490
And I feel like CHAT is a theoretical position that doesn't assume that, which is part of what I think makes it so friendly to more...

00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:35.370
To uses-

00:34:35.370 --> 00:34:37.570
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Exploratory work, yeah.

00:34:39.550 --> 00:34:45.880
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, that makes me think it would be interesting to transition to hearing more about your trajectory as an individual.

00:34:45.880 --> 00:35:01.025
So, I don't know if I said this earlier, but I'll just say it again, of course, as I ask these questions, please feel free to pass any question that you either don't want to answer or don't have a particular good answer to, or if you just want to interpret the question whatever what you want and say whatever in response it's also okay.

00:35:01.030 --> 00:35:01.370
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Okay.

00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:11.809
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>So, at this point, it would be really fun to just hear your story of how you got into the learning sciences and then made your way to the States and then made your way back to IIT.

00:35:13.070 --> 00:35:19.270
So, I guess the broad question is, what motivated you to these research interests?

00:35:20.100 --> 00:35:20.190
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Okay.

00:35:20.510 --> 00:35:33.780
So, if I had to backtrack, I didn't really start my research journey to become a learning scientist.

00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:48.270
In fact, it was mainly to get away from being a software engineer in an Indian company for three years, where I couldn't see myself doing that for the rest of my life.

00:35:48.279 --> 00:35:50.380
So, I knew what I did not want to do.

00:35:51.120 --> 00:36:13.750
So, that put me on a trajectory of getting into a master's program in human computer interaction at Georgia Tech, where I just happened to meet Janet Kolodner in her lab, and was fortunate enough to get funding to work with her on her projects.

00:36:14.319 --> 00:36:35.160
And from there on, I learned about learning sciences, and I had been passionate about teaching and working for educational NGOs here in India when I was working as a software engineer, but I had never considered pursuing that as a formal research direction.

00:36:36.059 --> 00:36:47.870
So, just knowing about learning sciences, and this was back in 2007, 2008, 2009, where learning sciences was itself a developing field.

00:36:49.710 --> 00:37:12.639
But understanding that there's a group of researchers who share the same passion and share the same set of goals and are open to doing the things, I think that opened up the space for me to explore different things in learning sciences.

00:37:13.150 --> 00:37:20.720
And then I went for my PhD in learning sciences at UIC, where I was working with Tom Moher.

00:37:21.390 --> 00:37:41.640
And so, that helped me merge my computer science background and more of the learning sciences focused, and do a lot of design based research, working with school kids and designing environments for them, working with teachers.

00:37:42.140 --> 00:37:44.670
So, I think that sort of helped me....

00:37:46.930 --> 00:37:52.900
That set the trajectory for me in learning sciences and as an educational researcher.

00:37:55.110 --> 00:37:55.670
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah-

00:37:55.670 --> 00:37:57.260
<v Chandan Dasgupta>I don't know if I've answered your question.

00:37:57.270 --> 00:37:58.370
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>You have, you have.

00:37:58.890 --> 00:38:07.430
So, then perhaps the second part of the story, so then when you finished your PhD, what kind of trajectory took you back to India?

00:38:08.650 --> 00:38:16.560
<v Chandan Dasgupta>So, after my PhD, I was able to get a postdoc position at Purdue for one and a half...

00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:17.339
Two years.

00:38:17.850 --> 00:38:22.740
And this was in the Computer Information Technology department.

00:38:22.740 --> 00:38:25.099
I think that's called Purdue Polytechnic right now.

00:38:26.839 --> 00:38:31.410
And there, the focus was a lot on engineering education.

00:38:32.049 --> 00:38:44.570
So, that helped me solidify my research more in engineering education and explore more of the computer-based or CSCL sort of research there.

00:38:46.750 --> 00:38:56.220
How I ended up moving back to India is an interesting story as well, because it had always been on the card for me, both me and my wife.

00:38:56.810 --> 00:39:14.840
We didn't oppose the idea of moving back to India, but we didn't consider it very seriously as well, because I wasn't sure of what sort of research would be possible here which would allow me to keep on doing the learning sciences related work.

00:39:16.099 --> 00:39:20.269
And I wasn't aware of the group here at IIT Bombay doing this work.

00:39:20.969 --> 00:39:26.360
And I just happened to run into them in one of their conferences organized by HBCSE.

00:39:28.130 --> 00:39:29.250
It was called epiSTEME.

00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:36.020
And there, I ran into this group at IIT Bombay, and then we started talking.

00:39:36.040 --> 00:39:38.659
We were in touch for around two to three years.

00:39:39.349 --> 00:39:44.220
So, this was throughout the time I was finishing up my PhD and throughout my postdoc.

00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:58.870
So, I was also building up my resume so that I'd be able to apply for a position here and fulfill the requirements that are necessary here to become a faculty.

00:39:59.850 --> 00:40:05.970
And then it just clicked that 2017 was the year for me to move back.

00:40:07.600 --> 00:40:13.529
And also, due to some personal reasons, I had to come back and be near my parents.

00:40:14.319 --> 00:40:23.760
So, I think both of those were reasons for me to come back and be here in India.

00:40:26.300 --> 00:40:27.700
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

00:40:27.710 --> 00:40:28.129
I think...

00:40:29.420 --> 00:40:37.040
I didn't know you were a software engineer before, but it's interesting that software engineering to HCI to learning sciences.

00:40:37.069 --> 00:40:39.200
And it makes sense when you tell it.

00:40:39.200 --> 00:40:41.780
You're like, oh, I see how that happened.

00:40:42.830 --> 00:40:46.410
But when you look across the whole story, you're like, oh, you went pretty far.

00:40:47.580 --> 00:40:54.050
So, at this point, it might be interesting to hear a little bit about how you're thinking about social impact, equity, inclusion, access.

00:40:54.050 --> 00:40:58.810
And again, I want to say, speak only to this issue to whatever degree makes sense for you.

00:40:59.160 --> 00:41:07.540
But how have you thought about your work with respect to social issues in India or your community, or to put that question a different way, who do you hope benefits from your work?

00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:11.507
<v Chandan Dasgupta>To be very frank, I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about a particular issue in that space, but that also comes from the fact that I'm learning about the context here and trying to understand.

00:41:11.507 --> 00:41:13.730
So, one of the things I've been trying to do more of is find research which have been done by Indian researchers here in India.

00:41:13.730 --> 00:41:51.600
And HBCSE and TISS has a lot of those in their repository.

00:41:51.600 --> 00:41:53.460
I'm trying to read up more on that.

00:41:55.980 --> 00:42:14.380
So, I wouldn't say that I have actively focused on those issues right now, but hopefully, over the next coming few years, I would hope that it would become part of my research direction, and I'm consciously working towards that.

00:42:16.290 --> 00:42:25.869
Part of the population who I feel I would like to see benefited from my research is the rural population.

00:42:25.869 --> 00:42:28.190
Definitely, urban is where I am.

00:42:28.870 --> 00:42:38.300
And, by default, I think that they would benefit because IIT Bombay is here, and it has this...

00:42:38.300 --> 00:42:47.670
There's a natural osmosis of ideas from IIT Bombay to places which are around IIT Bombay in the city.

00:42:49.210 --> 00:42:57.500
But that's not the case with places which are not in the near vicinity in terms of the geographic vicinity.

00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:06.070
And increasingly, so we recently opened up the master's program in educational technology from last year [2019].

00:43:06.670 --> 00:43:13.110
And we are getting a lot of students from very diverse background.

00:43:13.610 --> 00:43:18.939
And that's helping me connect with their background as well and different contexts that they're coming from.

00:43:19.660 --> 00:43:23.780
And that's helping me understand the space, which I'm not familiar with.

00:43:24.670 --> 00:43:32.409
And I think they are taking ideas with them back to their community, their villages.

00:43:33.030 --> 00:43:38.250
And I think those are the people ultimately whom I would like to see benefited from my work.

00:43:39.890 --> 00:43:41.490
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, I really appreciate that.

00:43:41.570 --> 00:43:48.880
And I think technology is so interesting as an entry point, but I think educational technology carries with it a little bit more of that.

00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:55.599
Hopefully, carries is within a sense of wanting to deploy towards some purpose.

00:43:56.229 --> 00:44:05.390
And I also really appreciated what you said about reading Indian authors who have been writing around this kind of work and prioritizing some of those perspectives.

00:44:05.390 --> 00:44:15.440
So, that leads to a natural transition about your evaluation of the climate of educational research and specifically learning sciences research in India.

00:44:16.340 --> 00:44:22.830
So, what ongoing efforts led by researchers in India have you come across that you are really excited about?

00:44:22.830 --> 00:44:32.520
Feel free to name specific projects or researchers, or just speak generally about what is exciting to you right now about learning sciences in educational research in India.

00:44:34.790 --> 00:44:41.950
<v Chandan Dasgupta>So, one, I already mentioned about the T4E, Technology for Education conference, which is being run.

00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:50.550
So, that's helping connect multiple people across India who have interest in educational research.

00:44:50.560 --> 00:44:50.960
So, that-

00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:54.260
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>And could you say that, that conference is also with teachers and all?

00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:54.860
[inaudible]

00:44:55.030 --> 00:44:55.550
.
 <v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah, right, right.

00:44:55.590 --> 00:44:55.940
Yeah.

00:44:57.340 --> 00:45:12.440
So, I'm very excited to be part of that group because it's helping me connect with other researchers and other practitioners in India, and understand the challenges or whatever works for them.

00:45:13.780 --> 00:45:23.990
The other effort which has been ongoing for the past one, one and a half years is that we are trying to establish an educational technology society in India.

00:45:25.550 --> 00:45:45.330
And that's mainly towards bringing together a lot of different efforts that we have seen happen related to teachers, professional development, related to education research, a lot of work which HBCSE does, a lot of work that we do.

00:45:45.660 --> 00:46:05.170
So, that's more of a formal community that we are trying to form and get visibility at India-wide level, and which may also have possibly some say in the policy matters related to education.

00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:10.500
But that's a very far fetched idea right now.

00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:22.170
It's just a matter of right now, we are trying to get the members together, get people connected, establish a common shared goal across all these diverse stakeholders in that community.

00:46:23.330 --> 00:46:29.010
But these are evolving things which are very exciting to be part of in India.

00:46:29.389 --> 00:46:30.350
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, I really like...

00:46:32.349 --> 00:46:35.159
Perhaps far in the future, but not so farfetched.

00:46:35.160 --> 00:46:37.440
I really like that dreaming big.

00:46:37.690 --> 00:46:46.619
So, related to that, what kinds of work do you want to see more of moving forward, or to put it a different way, if you were in charge, what would you...

00:46:47.110 --> 00:46:57.060
What kinds of frameworks, methods, epistemologies, contexts, research focuses do you wish were more prevalent or would you want to see people work on more in the future?

00:46:57.560 --> 00:46:57.740
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah.

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.210
So, one is definitely CHAT.

00:47:02.740 --> 00:47:09.649
That's something which I am interested in right now, so maybe that's why I'm saying that as one of my answers.

00:47:09.650 --> 00:47:14.639
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, but in this story, you're in charge, so you get to say whatever you want.

00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:14.659
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Yeah.

00:47:14.659 --> 00:47:35.790
But the other thing I think we have been practicing, trying to practice in the department is the communities of practice or the legitimate peripheral participation, and using that as a way of understanding, and talking to stakeholders at different levels, but also framing research.

00:47:36.590 --> 00:47:49.250
Even within design based research, these are all different things which can be tried out to understand different aspects of the learning environment.

00:47:49.250 --> 00:48:08.111
So, going forward, I would like to see more of, say, ethnographic work or just more of design based research at a very broad level, because that's still not very widespread or widely accepted as a valid way of doing research.

00:48:08.111 --> 00:48:16.359
So, I think the more of that we do, the more widespread and accepted that would be.

00:48:18.130 --> 00:48:19.109
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, thank you.

00:48:19.110 --> 00:48:21.019
That's a really illuminating answer.

00:48:21.090 --> 00:48:29.340
So, to bring us to a close here, what advice do you have to newcomers to educational research in India?

00:48:31.780 --> 00:48:41.360
Either to somebody who is contextually situated in India, or to an outsider, either way, whichever question is more compelling to you.

00:48:41.500 --> 00:48:44.179
<v Chandan Dasgupta>So, this would come across as a general preaching.

00:48:44.179 --> 00:48:45.463
I don't-

00:48:45.463 --> 00:48:46.747
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Please preach.

00:48:46.747 --> 00:48:49.315
The platform is yours.

00:48:49.315 --> 00:49:03.529
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Well, I think what worked for me, and this was some advice which I was given and which helped me settle in, was not to come with this grand plan of changing the system overnight.

00:49:04.250 --> 00:49:15.879
And when you're trained in education research or learning science research, you feel that you know everything, but then it's not really the case.

00:49:15.890 --> 00:49:18.050
You are coming to a different context.

00:49:18.050 --> 00:49:25.590
You're working with different groups of people here, both from a research and target demographic perspective.

00:49:26.100 --> 00:49:38.612
So, not having that grand plan or notion of that I would change the system or overhaul the whole education structure here in India.

00:49:38.612 --> 00:49:48.709
I think that would reduce the frustration to a large extent when you hit across the different worlds as you proceed.

00:49:48.710 --> 00:50:02.100
But also, I think being prepared for not holding yourself up to the same set of parameters that you may have held if you were in US.

00:50:02.650 --> 00:50:22.420
So, if I were in the US at a similar juncture in my career, I would be very focused on grant writing and paying a lot of attention on getting funding for my projects, which this system is not really...

00:50:25.450 --> 00:50:28.240
Not encouraging, it's sort of putting emphasis somewhere else.

00:50:29.490 --> 00:50:33.590
So, being open to that sort of change in the focus.

00:50:34.340 --> 00:50:41.530
And I'm even thankful for that, because I don't have to worry about funding to a large extent.

00:50:42.150 --> 00:50:55.330
So, that leaves me to think freely about the nature of the research that I do, not worrying about what the funding agencies want me to do.

00:50:55.330 --> 00:50:58.840
So, that works both ways when you're moving to a different context.

00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:05.270
But I think being open to those sort of situations and making the best of what's there available for you.

00:51:05.779 --> 00:51:08.280
So, I think those two would be the big things for me.

00:51:09.740 --> 00:51:10.630
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Yeah, thank you.

00:51:10.670 --> 00:51:14.080
I think the funding issue is really interesting too, because we keep returning to it.

00:51:14.090 --> 00:51:23.400
I feel like the funding situation in the US is actually something that I'm quite critical of, because I think it seems to get the...

00:51:24.010 --> 00:51:32.300
I really shouldn't say this on recording, but I know that it's funding the research, but sometimes it feels to me like it's getting in the way of research.

00:51:35.540 --> 00:51:40.119
So, just closing out here, is there anything else that...

00:51:40.479 --> 00:51:41.759
Let me rephrase.

00:51:42.020 --> 00:51:47.880
What else would you like to add about your research work or the broader research community in India that we missed talking about today?

00:51:50.680 --> 00:51:51.420
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Nothing really.

00:51:51.430 --> 00:51:56.163
I think we covered everything.

00:51:56.163 --> 00:51:57.120
Nothing else to add to that.

00:51:57.849 --> 00:51:58.339
<v Suraj Uttamchandani>Okay.

00:51:59.349 --> 00:52:00.700
It's really nice to chat with you.

00:52:00.700 --> 00:52:04.630
I'm really glad to put a face to the name, and this has been really, really illuminating-

00:52:04.640 --> 00:52:05.100
<v Chandan Dasgupta>Same here.

00:52:05.410 --> 00:52:19.990
Thanks for the really thoughtful questions, and giving me the space to be open about a lot of things and express my views.